issue 27 Focused Feedback: Ice Control Changes

[Blackfeather]

Might be useful to mention here as well, from the Symphony Control feedback thread:

 

4 hours ago, Captain Powerhouse said:

One final note: 

This is not exclusive to this set, but it is extremely rare that we will ever change a power from one type to another without a ton of good reason. Such change will usually mean significant fx and art changes that just are not trivial, not to mention, sometimes the goal is for the set to just feel a certain way. I know if it was up to a lot of people, every single aoe in the game would be a TAoE.

[...]

8 hours ago, Blackfeather said:

Might be useful to mention here as well, from the Symphony Control feedback thread:

 

 

Less relevant in this context, because the Captain himself redesigned the power as a TAoE initially. 

 

So this happens to be one of those rare times they were seriously considering it. 

[Blackfeather]

8 hours ago, ... said:

Less relevant in this context, because the Captain himself redesigned the power as a TAoE initially. 

 

So this happens to be one of those rare times they were seriously considering it. 

 

Oh, I don't think I saw that - could you link the forum post where @Captain Powerhouse redesigned Cold Snap to be a TAoE initially?

[...]

On 8/2/2022 at 4:29 PM, Captain Powerhouse said:

 

The initial internal test was done that way, and it was dimmed to be too good. The adjustment was meant to make the fear in Cold Snap to be equivalent in usability to Dark Control's Fearsome Stare without nerfing the current debuff area, therefore the dual area setup.  The set might still get further updates in the future, but its unlikely that Cold Snap will change much if at all from its current form.

 

@Blackfeather

 

Upon re-reading, I'm not sure if the Captain is referring to it being a TAoE or if he means the fear being 135 degree arc. 

[Booper]

4 minutes ago, ... said:

 

@Blackfeather

 

Upon re-reading, I'm not sure if the Captain is referring to it being a TAoE or if he means the fear being 135 degree arc. 

Most cones are targeted AoEs.

[WindDemon21]

1 hour ago, Booper said:

Most cones are targeted AoEs.

Taoe CLEARLY is referred to as a ranged attack, where the area is a radius around the targeted enemy, as opposed to a ranged cone. Don't be pedantic.

[WindDemon21]

1 hour ago, Booper said:

Most cones are targeted AoEs.

That said though, is it referring to the slow being too good as a taoe (not cone), or both? Read up further, and you'll see the suggestion for mainly having the slow as the taoe so its usable in melee, but then making the fear a mag 4, but only last like 4ish seconds, just enough time to get into melee, and let AA go to work.

 

In addition, please address the horridly dumb duration that has existed forever on the power, it should easily be at least 30s. Always been a thorn in it's side that it literally had worse rech/duration than the blaster version, which even that got an update, but not the controller/dom versions.

[...]

2 hours ago, Booper said:

Most cones are targeted AoEs.

 

I think a developer just trolled me. 

 

The distinction I was trying to make AoE radius extending from target (TAoE).

 

Rather than radius extending from caster (Cones). 

 

I thought this clear. Apparently not. 

[Booper]

6 minutes ago, ... said:

 

I think a developer just trolled me. 

 

The distinction I was trying to make AoE radius extending from target (TAoE).

 

Rather than radius extending from caster (Cones). 

 

I thought this clear. Apparently not. 

Wasn't trolling, I was giving you the out "if" you ever saw CPH state Cold Snap aka Shivers aka Shiver was a TAoE in development. I am looking at the repo now and not once has the power ever been anything other than a cone. I don't think he ever said Cold Snap was redigned as a TAoE, but if so that would be the only justification for making such a statement as, again, the power has never been a sphere at any point in development. 

 

But to the point of using a sphere attack instead of a cone, a targeted sphere attack (commonly referred as TAoE) does have benefits in melee as the area around the target is easier for expectations. Aim for the guy in the center, likely hit the most targets (assuming grouping is near that target). However, the size of Cold Snap's cone should not be overlooked. A 30' radius with 135 degree arc has a circular sector area similar to a sphere attack with 18' radius. And if you wish to get three dimensional with it, the volume of the spherical sector is similar to a sphere attack with 20' radius. This is just the fear component, the slow component obviously quadruples the area and octuples the volume.

 

Going back to the cone in two-dimensions for a second, the wedge it creates at closer range (11.5 feet away, so practically melee), you get a cone width of almost 28' radius. That is a wide area, and given most attacks happen when targets are in front of you (as you would engage a goup) typically would hit more foes with this cone than you would with a 15-20 ft sphere attack. I mention the 11.5 feet also because it acts as a target point for anyone who likes to get into melee range and use jump powers to shape there cones into PBAoEs. By leaping 11.5-17.5 feet off the ground and targeting a foe right below you, you should hit everyone on the ground within that 28' radius. Again, that's just the fear component. For the slow, double the height and get double the radius. Also worth mentioning that's at base range only. If you wish to enhance the range of the cone, all those values would scale up linearly.

 

At this point, I only see 3 possible outcomes for the fear. It stays shorter range but have full arc width (current version, benefits melee), revert to the same range but narrower arc (previous version, benefits range), or make the fear component a "chance for fear", likely around 40% chance (you get full coverage but less control on the fear reliability).

 

 

 

[WindDemon21]

30 minutes ago, Booper said:

At this point, I only see 3 possible outcomes for the fear. It stays shorter range but have full arc width (current version, benefits melee), revert to the same range but narrower arc (previous version, benefits range), or make the fear component a "chance for fear", likely around 40% chance (you get full coverage but less control on the fear reliability).

And why not just a short 3-4ish second mag 4 fear to use to enter melee with as a taoe, allowing the more constant slow of the power to be usable in melee? (While still not forgetting fixing its rech/duration of the slow if that wasn't done already)

[Riverdusk]

Think I'd prefer the 45/60 version if I had to choose.  That way at least it is useful as an opening power on a mob, and then your other powers take over as you enter melee.  At 30 feet range it tends to lose even that one use to it.

[Jacke]

Why make another power complex with 2 different effects with different footprints?

 

I really don't see giving both the Slow and the Fear effects the same footprint as an excessive buff.

 

And as a cone attack with a ~30s recharge, Cold Snap will not be used as a melee attack but as an approach attack.

[...]

19 hours ago, Booper said:

Wasn't trolling, I was giving you the out "if" you ever saw CPH state Cold Snap aka Shivers aka Shiver was a TAoE in development. I am looking at the repo now and not once has the power ever been anything other than a cone. I don't think he ever said Cold Snap was redigned as a TAoE, but if so that would be the only justification for making such a statement as, again, the power has never been a sphere at any point in development. 

 

Yeah I think I screwed up when interpreting CPH's comment.

 

I agree that 135 degrees on a control cone is huge. 30 feet is limited, but a couple of range enhancements do go a long way. 

 

I'll make it work whichever way it goes. 

 

[Peacemoon]

On 8/17/2022 at 1:41 AM, Booper said:

Most cones are targeted AoEs.

This is true and I was going to highlight this earlier in the thread. Cone attacks in CoH have to be cast with an enemy as the target point, so any trickery around cone width or cone range is hard for players in this game.

 

In other games you can rotate the cone around your character (or it just shoots forward from the direction your character is facing) and you have a visual on the ground to see the width, the range, and the ‘inner range’ so it’s really obvious what is being hit.

I’ve added a photo of this from Heroes of the Storm:

Basically because of the way cones work in this game (they have to target an enemy, like you say), plus there is no visual clues as to what you’re hitting, I personally am against the fear and the slow part of this power from having either a different width or different range. I don’t think it is going to be fun or a good experience in this game.

 

I think looking at play styles, and other posts in this thread, using this power as an opener so people can then enter melee range seems to be the way to go. So I reckon trying to facilitate that would be the best way forward.

[Blackfeather]

The wider cone of 50 does make sense given its range is shorter than its counterparts. Terrify does have a wider 90 degree arc for that same range of 60 for comparison, but it trades in slow effects for damage, and comes at a higher level...so I can't really complain.

[WindDemon21]

On 7/12/2022 at 2:05 PM, The Curator said:

Ice Slick:

• Now does damage.
• Now accepts Accuracy and Damage enhancements.
• Now accepts Ranged AoE and Universal Damage sets.

Um... you STILL forgot about the slow and knockback sets/enhancing. Same with Ice Patch.

 

You also increased the recharge for shiver/cold snap, and DIDN'T adjust the duration of the slow, making it even worse to try to keep the slow on. Terrible...