issue 27 Focused Feedback: Architect Entertainment

[Marbing]

2 minutes ago, Troo said:

Custom Enemy Changes

Advanced Enemy Power Customization

New Custom Enemy Powersets Additions

etc

 

🙂

 

 

I know thats all in here, I just didnt know if he had a specific aspect in mind. 

[Coyotedancer]

5 minutes ago, Troo said:

Custom Enemy Changes

Advanced Enemy Power Customization

New Custom Enemy Powersets Additions

Mission Map Additions

Enemy Group Additions

etc

 

🙂

 

I am fiddling with some but there is a lot.

 

My middle nephew is more of an AE arc builder than I am. I'm going to point him at those changes... I'm curious to see what he makes of the custom enemy changes in particular. He's ALL ABOUT his custom factions.

[Marbing]

9 minutes ago, The_Warpact said:

What @Troo said @Marbing.

Then no, I have not tested every single aspect of the AE changes. Specifically the ones related to advanced power options, more enemy groups, and such. I have tested the power changes for fire attacks, and found that you only need 1-3 more powers (depending on mob rank) to get back to 100% xp. This does make a difference on their damage output and behavior, especially when combined with the aggro changes, but not so large that it really makes things worse (depending on your build). In fact overall farming got a buff in efficiency. The inf per enemy is about the same as well from what I was noticing. I was using a lvl 50 so I havn't checked the xp gain rate. 

Edited July 17, 2022 by Marbing

[DarknessEternal]

I simply cannot grasp the position of people who think it's a good idea to remove things that other people enjoy that have no impact on themselves.

 

It's the height of narcissism.

[Bionic_Flea]

Should the AE be 10 times faster than any other content to get XP and other rewards?

 

If not, what should the proper amount be?

[DarknessEternal]

3 minutes ago, Bionic_Flea said:

Should the AE be 10 times faster than any other content to get XP and other rewards?

It has been for 3 years.  Changing it now makes the rich richer. 

 

The only option is increasing other rewards.

[Bionic_Flea]

1 minute ago, DarknessEternal said:

Changing it now makes the rich richer.

Please explain this part.  And you didn't really answer either question.

[Marbing]

4 minutes ago, Bionic_Flea said:

Should the AE be 10 times faster than any other content to get XP and other rewards?

 

If not, what should the proper amount be?

This is the crux of the argument. It being the way it is causes a vacuum that forces players to play a certain way for their rewards. Because why do anything else? As others have said, this is already happening on Excelsior. 

I don't see how it wouldn't be fair to curb it down to at least the most extreme non-AE content. Which is still, apparently, no where near that of AE farming. 

Just now, DarknessEternal said:

The only option is increasing other rewards.

This is not feasible without causing other problems, such as out-leveling an area after 1 or 2 missions. The pace is the pace for a reason, and even then double XP kind of encroaches on that.

 

[DarknessEternal]

The nerf-AE side's main point is that it is necessary because it's bad for the long term of the game.  Do you know what makes the game more impenetrable to new players in the future?  An oligarchy of trillionaires that control every aspect of the market that they can never even hope to crack into.

 

Farms are what make IOs available at the price they are.  You're going back to trading around billions off-market for things if you remove them.

 

You can't charge enormous prices now because you'll never sell when people have farms to get it on their own.

Edited July 17, 2022 by DarknessEternal

[Bionic_Flea]

3 minutes ago, Marbing said:

It being the way it is causes a vacuum that forces players to play a certain way for their rewards.

I disagree with this.  There is certainly an incentive to get things quick in AE farms, and some people only farm for those rewards and some for other reasons.  And yet, people still do TFs, Trials, Raids, Story Arcs, and other stuff multiple times every day.

[Marbing]

3 minutes ago, Bionic_Flea said:

I disagree with this.  There is certainly an incentive to get things quick in AE farms, and some people only farm for those rewards and some for other reasons.  And yet, people still do TFs, Trials, Raids, Story Arcs, and other stuff multiple times every day.

Correct, but I think it has been discovered, not nearly in the same volume as AE farming. But someone with better access to data would have to show that stuff, and I am lazy and don't want to find it right now... 😄 

[Coyotedancer]

Eh. Farmers will still farm and supply the marketeers with the raw materials they use to make their fortunes playing at conversion bingo, rather we're doing it in AE or on Council Earth. This isn't going to be the end of an affordable marketplace.

 

Middle Nephew says to say that he's officially not a fan of the "No Vet Levels" change, by the way.

(I knew he wouldn't be. He does love getting those badges on F1reDr1ll, and AE has been his primary source of vet XP to do that.)

 

He says he's looking forward to trying out the new maps and custom enemy changes, too, so at least there's that. This'll be the first new page or issue beta he's joined in on. (Yes. I am proud. ^_^)

[DarknessEternal]

2 minutes ago, Coyotedancer said:

Eh. Farmers will still farm and supply the marketeers with the raw materials they use to make their fortunes playing at conversion bingo, rather we're doing it in AE or on Council Earth. This isn't going to be the end of an affordable marketplace.

 

 

Supply slows down which makes prices go up.  Simultaneously, wealth building also slows down and can't cover new higher prices demanded of the trillionaires.  Old players stop trying.  New players never appear.

[Bionic_Flea]

I think that part of the data-mining part of the problem is that there are outliers and then there's a whole other tier of outliers beyond that and it skews the data.

 

For example, there is a huge difference in getting from 1-50 +T4 in say 80 hours of playing regular content, 40 hours of farming, or 5 hours of elite farming.

 

Personally, I am OK with 5 hours being too fast and OK with 40 hours.  But if even that is considered too fast, then I think we need to make regular content faster and make both of them 60 hours.  Again, I'm just using round numbers to make a point, not to state these are the numbers or should be the numbers.

 

[Marbing]

Just now, Bionic_Flea said:

I think that part of the data-mining part of the problem is that there are outliers and then there's a whole other tier of outliers beyond that and it skews the data.

 

For example, there is a huge difference in getting from 1-50 +T4 in say 80 hours of playing regular content, 40 hours of farming, or 5 hours of elite farming.

 

Personally, I am OK with 5 hours being too fast and OK with 40 hours.  But if even that is considered too fast, then I think we need to make regular content faster and make both of them 60 hours.  Again, I'm just using round numbers to make a point, not to state these are the numbers or should be the numbers.

 

I agree with you here, this hits at the possible solution to the problem as I see it. If the max experience/inf gain possible is evened out across AE and non-AE then I don't see an issue with that. The issue is, as you say it, finding that sweet spot. I think it is fair to limit AE to that of the maximum possible results you could get outside of AE, which is still pretty good, just not ridiculous. There are multiple ways you could accomplish this as have been discussed. I am not pinned down to one solution, just saying that anything that accomplishes this would be okay by me. 

[DarknessEternal]

8 minutes ago, Bionic_Flea said:

Personally, I am OK with 5 hours being too fast and OK with 40 hours. 

 

Are you completely disconnected from the modern video game/gamer?  40 hours is an entire game.  That's what you want the cost to just reaching max level on a single character to be?   And reaching max level isn't even close to reaching an end point on a character.

 

I can get 4 characters to max level in WoW in 40 hours, and that's a game from the same old-timey space as this one.

 

Your position is just out of touch.

Edited July 17, 2022 by DarknessEternal

[Coyotedancer]

6 minutes ago, DarknessEternal said:

 

Supply slows down which makes prices go up.  Simultaneously, wealth building also slows down and can't cover new higher prices demanded of the trillionaires.  Old players stop trying.  New players never appear.

 

I don't think it's going to slow down as much as you're afraid it will... Keep in mind that many of us who farm are doing it for fun as much as for the loot. We're not going to give that up easily. Not over what is, annoying though it might be, a fairly minor change. 

 

The aggro changes will bite AFKs if they don't update their builds, granted. But playing around with a few different maps now on beta, with both a very tough zen-mode farmer and a more fragile speed freak, we active types will be just fine. 

[Bionic_Flea]

2 minutes ago, DarknessEternal said:

Are you completely disconnected from the modern video game/gamer?  40 hours is an entire game.  That's what you want the cost to just reaching max level on a single character to be?   And reaching max level isn't even close to reaching an end point on a character.

 

I can get 4 characters to max level in WoW in 40 hours, and that's a game from the same old-timey space as this one.

 

Your position is just out of touch.

 

10 minutes ago, Bionic_Flea said:

Again, I'm just using round numbers to make a point, not to state these are the numbers or should be the numbers.

 

I think you forgot to read the whole post.

 

[SwitchFade]

3 hours ago, ExeErdna said:

 

The only problem was when you had to pop into AP and it lags for other zones it's no problem. They might finally spread out a bit since I've had my game crash a few times zoning in when running some TF's. They legit fixed that problem.

Personally what's happening with AE here should be put on the backburner to see how people react with the AE in AP being gone first. If that makes people play more DFB's that's basically the goal completed. It matters not what a 50 do with their time.

That's a solid idea to start with removing from low zones first. I would add, adjust AE xp/info to equal all other content, never more.

 

This retains AE as a play choice, assures it is not a trap by moving it from low zones and makes it equal to all other content for rewards, no longer obscenely outsized.

 

I get why people MAY want it in low zones, but anyone desiring AE to have absurdly more rewards than all other content stems from one simple reason.

[Darmian]

14 minutes ago, DarknessEternal said:

40 hours is an entire game.

It's been a loong time since 40 hours was an entire video game, at least in my experience.

[Bionic_Flea]

2 minutes ago, Darmian said:

It's been a loong time since 40 hours was an entire video game, at least in my experience.

Considering that many of us have been playing this game for 18 years . . .

 

Also considering that it took me several months to get my first 50, but I never want to go back to that.

[Marbing]

FWIW I can get 1-50 in PI Radios, on a team, in less than 10 hours of game time, w/ double xp.

Also, I can get 1-50 doing level appropriate content, on a team, all the way up in approximately 12-15 hours of game time (give or take), w/ double xp.

The slowest would be soloing 1-50 level appropriate content, but I don't do that anymore because I like to have company. 😄 
 

In an AE Farm I can get 1-50 in a couple of hours door sitting, w/ double xp.

 

Edit: These are best case estimates based on personal experience and may not reflect everyone’s experience.

The thing is, they don't want to nerf PLing 1-50, that isn't the issue as I understand it with these changes. The target here was Vet Rewards. They are trying to curb the rewards beyond the 1-50 experience. I think it is important that we keep that at the forefront of the issue here. Because once you get 50, you start getting Emp Merits every 3 vet levels, these are incredibly valuable. And I know they taper off, but that doesn't slow anyone down from just creating another bunch of alts and farming them up to get more, because it is just that fast to do it. So the argument is really about whether or not we think that the rate in which you can get these in an AE farm is too fast. And if so, by how much. Would you settle for half? Where is that sweet spot? Where is that compromise?

Edited July 17, 2022 by Marbing

[SwitchFade]

48 minutes ago, DarknessEternal said:

The nerf-AE side's main point is that it is necessary because it's bad for the long term of the game.  Do you know what makes the game more impenetrable to new players in the future?  An oligarchy of trillionaires that control every aspect of the market that they can never even hope to crack into.

 

Farms are what make IOs available at the price they are.  You're going back to trading around billions off-market for things if you remove them.

 

You can't charge enormous prices now because you'll never sell when people have farms to get it on their own.

I'm sorry, that's not how economics works, or this game's economy, specifically. What makes ios available is the fact that all goods are normal and substitutable, via converters.

 

AE rewards being equal to all other rewards will have a net zero effect on the economy.

 

It will, on the other hand, cease to dramatically incentive a single aspect of gameplay, and assure that all content is equal.

Edited July 17, 2022 by SwitchFade

[Bionic_Flea]

2 minutes ago, SwitchFade said:

AE rewards being equal to all other rewards will have a net zero effect on the economy.

 

Unless that leads to less people playing, earning drops, and selling them . . .

Edited July 17, 2022 by Bionic_Flea

[MoonSheep]

51 minutes ago, DarknessEternal said:

Farms are what make IOs available at the price they are.  You're going back to trading around billions off-market for things if you remove them.

 

You can't charge enormous prices now because you'll never sell when people have farms to get it on their own.

 

or, the devs can seed them like they do for most other market content

 

farmers aren’t as important to the game than they like to think they are. they have sold themselves a myth that the game couldn‘t possibly survive without them