The Pretty Good AE Debate

[ZacKing]

1 minute ago, arcane said:

For one singular character that has the ability to farm the inf/drops itself, how bad can it possibly be? Weeks maybe if you’re a super casual player?

 

You don't need billions of inf to earn tons of inf in the game. 

[arcane]

Just now, ZacKing said:

 

You don't need billions of inf to earn tons of inf in the game. 

What point are you making? I agree inf is easy af to make in this game. Do we disagree on something lol

[Stoked]

While various people run tests and collect data, I think it's important to note that absolutely no testing was appare tly done before the claims made about AE being the best reward machine in game. Just another example of a lie perpetuated by a select few to support the narrative.

[Bionic_Flea]

Excuse me?  Are you calling me a liar?

 

[arcane]

7 minutes ago, Stoked said:

While various people run tests and collect data, I think it's important to note that absolutely no testing was appare tly done before the claims made about AE being the best reward machine in game. Just another example of a lie perpetuated by a select few to support the narrative.

A hypothesis not yet scientifically proven but supported by mountains of anecdotal evidence is not exactly a “lie”. Calling people liars for having not provided a dissertation’s worth of supporting data on an internet forum is not super helpful. People are allowed to state things that are obvious and self-evident to them without having to make those statements hold up in court.

Edited August 9, 2022 by arcane

[Ukase]

23 minutes ago, ZemX said:

I don't necessarily WANT higher prices, but it also doesn't appeal to my sense of fairness if the reward rates are so much higher inside AE vs. outside AE (even farm vs. farm), so if that's not the case... good.  But I suspect it is and @Ukase seemed to imply as much as well with his comment about the doom that would befall the market if people had to do their farming outside AE.

 

If, on the other hand, AE farming is not significantly better than outside AE farming and the community has just decided it's a good place to gather, then I'm cool with that too.  Keeps the farmers and their "sitters" out of the mission teams and TFs and that suits me fine.

So, let me elaborate. When I suggest that prices will go higher, it's basically a hunch of mine, because I imagine that with the proposed change, there will be some players who farm specifically for emp merits won't do so anymore. Heck, they may quit entirely, I've no idea. My comment was aimed primarily at people who dismiss farming as an exploit. If it were an exploit and treated as such, there'd be a lot fewer items to buy on the AH, guaranteed. That's the point I'm trying to make, to the folks who are "Farming bad! It's cheating! It's an exploit!!" 
Clearly, I'm failing to make my point, because despite my best attempts to explain that our farmers are what's allowing them to get the IOs that don't drop for them at a reasonable price. Take a look at D-Syncs and Hami-Os. Look at a microfiliament. It's one of 12 Hami's available. Usually sells for 20-50 million, depending on who's selling them when they get them. And some of those D-syncs, in particular the threat/recharge/accuracy - it has sold for the inf cap! 
The reason the prices of those are so outrageous is because even if my brute could hang with a Dr. Aeon, the odds of getting one of those is damn slim. I'm still better off slaving away in a farm and letting one of my primary characters run Aeon while the farmer does what he does best - sit with burn on auto. 
But, I promise you, if AE could give d-syncs or hami's as a reward, the prices of those would be 10-20x cheaper. 

Farming isn't going anywhere. It won't leave AE, because the changes proposed are merely going to slow things down a bit, because our afk-farmers will have to forgo certain set bonus numbers in pursuit of other set bonus numbers to mitigate the increased damage coming their way from AoE and ranged attacks. There is a noticeable difference for my farmers sitting in the middle of the map with burn on auto on Excelsior compared to Brainstorm, the test server. 

So, please don't worry about "doom". That's just what I think would happen if folks like UltraAlt had their way and farming would be forbidden or discouraged to the point where a player had to choose between farming at some sub-optimal rate or teaming with some player who wants to read lore (slowly) instead of getting the job done. Or teaming with some player who hasn't bothered to slot enhancements, or even train up. 

 

[ZacKing]

9 minutes ago, arcane said:

A hypothesis not yet scientifically proven but supported by mountains of anecdotal evidence is not exactly a “lie”. Calling people liars for having not provided a dissertation’s worth of supporting data on an internet forum is not super helpful. People are allowed to state things that are obvious and self-evident to them without having to make those statements hold up in court.

 

"Mountains of anecdotal evidence"  LMAO!!  Ok so aliens, Bigfoot and the Loch Ness monster are totally real.  Give me a break.  Making claims and then not offering anything real to back it up isn't super helpful either.

[Frostbiter]

10 minutes ago, Ukase said:

So, please don't worry about "doom". That's just what I think would happen if folks like UltraAlt had their way and farming would be forbidden or discouraged to the point where a player had to choose between farming at some sub-optimal rate or teaming with some player who wants to read lore (slowly) instead of getting the job done. Or teaming with some player who hasn't bothered to slot enhancements, or even train up. 

 

 

You can't create strawmen and then badmouth them. The Strawman Union Reps will be hearing about this!

[Ukase]

18 minutes ago, ZacKing said:

 

This is totally hilarious.  Other players say "one person's results aren't enough" and they get jumped all over by the anti AE crowd.  Then when others start posting data that doesn't line up with what the anti AE crowd found, now all of a sudden it's "not enough people testing".  Christ you people don't even try to hide your hypocrisy anymore.  Unreal. 

I can appreciate your opinion, but while I don't know Flea personally, I trust him. His game knowledge is top-notch, and he bends over backwards (figuratively) to help folks figure things out. 
Flea isn't Anti-AE, but I suspect he's more Pro-CoH, whatever that may happen to look like. Flea has farmed his own characters, and may very well do so again when it suits him. I trust he is after the information to help the powers that be make the best decision they can for the health of the game overall - whatever it looks like. 

 

 

[Ukase]

1 minute ago, Frostbiter said:

 

You can't create strawmen and then badmouth them. The Strawman Union Reps will be hearing about this!

I don't create strawmen, lol. But I will badmouth them if they deserve it!

[ZacKing]

8 minutes ago, Ukase said:

I can appreciate your opinion, but while I don't know Flea personally, I trust him. His game knowledge is top-notch, and he bends over backwards (figuratively) to help folks figure things out. 
Flea isn't Anti-AE, but I suspect he's more Pro-CoH, whatever that may happen to look like. Flea has farmed his own characters, and may very well do so again when it suits him. I trust he is after the information to help the powers that be make the best decision they can for the health of the game overall - whatever it looks like. 

 

Don't know them personally either and they might be the most knowledgeable person ever about the game.  That's great.  I do know hypocrisy when I see it though and all the game knowledge in the world doesn't change that. 

[arcane]

26 minutes ago, ZacKing said:

 

"Mountains of anecdotal evidence"  LMAO!!  Ok so aliens, Bigfoot and the Loch Ness monster are totally real.  Give me a break.  Making claims and then not offering anything real to back it up isn't super helpful either.

Now, on the other hand, comparing claims that AE is top tier rewards to Bigfoot… that’s some seriously disingenuous stuff. 

[Grouchybeast]

41 minutes ago, Stoked said:

While various people run tests and collect data, I think it's important to note that absolutely no testing was appare tly done before the claims made about AE being the best reward machine in game. Just another example of a lie perpetuated by a select few to support the narrative.

 

If you're suggesting that AE farmers are not that bright because they just picked a place to farm at random with no clue how good the rewards are, that seems kind of rude.

[ZacKing]

7 minutes ago, arcane said:

Now, on the other hand, comparing claims that AE is top tier rewards to Bigfoot… that’s some seriously disingenuous stuff. 

 

Nope anecdotal claims are anecdotal claims, doesn't matter what they are about.  Nice try though.

Edited August 9, 2022 by ZacKing

[arcane]

2 minutes ago, Grouchybeast said:

 

If you're suggesting that AE farmers are not that bright because they just picked a place to farm at random with no clue how good the rewards are, that seems kind of rude.

Lol you just believe in Bigfoot

 

🙄

 

[Ukase]

Just now, Grouchybeast said:

 

If you're suggesting that AE farmers are not that bright because they just picked a place to farm at random with no clue how good the rewards are, that seems kind of rude.

That is probably the case with most beginning farmers. But farmers, like many players have public and private chat channels they've joined to discuss which maps give them the best rewards, depending on what they're in pursuit of. 

Some farmers, like many non-farmers, can't stand the AH. They're looking for influence and vendor most drops because of their distaste for it. 
Other farmers like myself, are no longer worried about influence or xp, but want emp merits. 
Some farmers are after incarnate xp or xp in general. 

Some farmers avoid AE in pursuit of reward merits. Make a build specifically for a certain NPC and rerun certain story arcs through ouro when the mood strikes them. 
 

[Stoked]

44 minutes ago, arcane said:

A hypothesis not yet scientifically proven but supported by mountains of anecdotal evidence is not exactly a “lie”. Calling people liars for having not provided a dissertation’s worth of supporting data on an internet forum is not super helpful. People are allowed to state things that are obvious and self-evident to them without having to make those statements hold up in court.

First of all, "mountains of anecdotal evidence" doesn't constitute anything but fiction. Had that evidence been empirical, I might agree at least in premise. Over the next couple days/nights we'll work to give the user base a true accounting for where the best rewards in game are. If you're smart, you'll place a bet on anything that has to do with reselling on the market. AE farming MIGHT give a marginally better inf/time ratio than PI radios for instance. But when we speed run LSRF or do back to back SBB's and start selling drops this BS narrative you've chosen to support will quickly come apart.

[arcane]

Just now, ZacKing said:

 

Nope anecdotal claims are anecdotal claims, doesn't matter what they are about.  Nice try though.

The fact that you are incapable of distinguishing between those anecdotal claims suggests severely limited intelligence. And yes, you deserve to be insulted after that ❤️ 

[arcane]

Just now, Stoked said:

First of all, "mountains of anecdotal evidence" doesn't constitute anything but fiction. Had that evidence been empirical, I might agree at least in premise. Over the next couple days/nights we'll work to give the user base a true accounting for where the best rewards in game are. If you're smart, you'll place a bet on anything that has to do with reselling on the market. AE farming MIGHT give a marginally better inf/time ratio than PI radios for instance. But when we speed run LSRF or do back to back SBB's and start selling drops this BS narrative you've chosen to support will quickly come apart.

Provide proof that will hold up in a court of law or you’re a liar that believes in the Loch Ness monster.

 

(I obviously don’t believe that, just trying to get down on y’alls level)

[ShardWarrior]

5 minutes ago, Grouchybeast said:

If you're suggesting that AE farmers are not that bright because they just picked a place to farm at random with no clue how good the rewards are, that seems kind of rude.

 

I am not sure that is what was being suggested.  I could be mistaken, but I believe the comment was that there was never any real data presented that AE was producing the best rewards of any other content in the game.  To my knowledge, there never has been any data like that posted even back on live. 

[Stoked]

6 minutes ago, Grouchybeast said:

 

If you're suggesting that AE farmers are not that bright because they just picked a place to farm at random with no clue how good the rewards are, that seems kind of rude.

That's not what I'm suggesting at all. I farm daily in AE because I don't have to team. I can go at whatever pace I want, stop when I want and continue when I want. I don't have to read some garbage story line written by an illiterate. If I see people asking for help with XP or inf ... I invite them, welcome them aboard and get on with it. My goal isn't to turn the market on its head or make out like a bandit. It's simply to try as many different builds as possible and enjoy the fireworks with a toon when I do run "regular" content. Any one or a combination of those reasons may be why people run AE instead of joining teams. It doesn't necessarily have anything to do with best rewards.

[ZacKing]

4 minutes ago, arcane said:

The fact that you are incapable of distinguishing between those anecdotal claims suggests severely limited intelligence. And yes, you deserve to be insulted after that ❤️ 

 

And the fact that you want to bullshit everyone into believing anecdotal evidence is equal to hard facts shows that you're an even bigger idiot than me. 

[arcane]

2 minutes ago, ZacKing said:

 

And the fact that you want to bullshit everyone into believing anecdotal evidence is equal to hard facts shows that you're an even bigger idiot than me. 

I never said that but obviously you will twist my words. But I’m done engaging with you. You’re not capable of civil and reasonable conversation. 

[Ukase]

22 minutes ago, Bionic_Flea said:

 

You can count whatever you like, but recipe drops are extremely random.  I have had three purples drop in one farm and then not get another one for weeks.

 

How long does it take, on average, to clear most of the map when AFK?  Otherwise you can just choose 5 or 10 minutes to leave it running and take stock at that point.  There are some timed farms that kick you out after 5-10 minutes.  But yeah, leaving it running overnight will probably give terrible inf/min results.  So unless you are running multiples or automating, or both, AFK farming is going to produce a low number for inf/minute.

So, first asteroid - 17 minutes, map not cleared, but gonna reset anyway, just the same as I would normally. 

Inf earned before any sales: 4,416,186 or 259,776 per minute. 
Inf earned after vendoring inspirations, common salvage, common recipes, enhancements: 4,695,864 or 276,227 per minute. 

2nd asteroid - 19 minutes, map not cleared, etc. 
Inf earned before sales: 4,417,665 or 232,509 per minute

Inf earned after vendoring the loot as before: 5,015,920 or 263,996 per minute

 

3rd asteroid - 11 minutes, map not cleared, etc. 
Inf earned before sales: 4,048,297 or 368,027 per minute

Inf earned after vendoring: 4,701,077 or 427,371 per minute   

That's all I have time for. It's important to note that when you run 125, there are obviously going to be more mobs in the map when you enter it than after 10 minutes of sitting in the center with burn on auto. This is why the inf per minute is more on the 3rd run than on the first 2, but I'm out of time for right now and have things to do! 

You can take the numbers and do with them what you like. But, if I don't account for the drops of uncommon and rare recipes  - honestly, I wouldn't afk farm, unless it's for emp merits. It just isn't worth it to me except as a passive way to increase influence, which I no longer need. If I do take them into account, see my previous posts about how the afk-scaling comes into play. It is worth it, because it's additive. Not exponentially so, because I can't handle playing 3 farmers on each shard. (well, I think I could, but I want to actually play content. If I had that many farmers going, they'd get congested with salvage, recipes and crafted IOs. It would literally take me an hour or so to deal with all that, and there's only so much time I can actively play in a day. 


For those of you against farming, you keep doing you. You have your reasons for thinking the way you do. If everyone thought the way I do, the world would likely be very scary! 
Still, like me, I hope you all can open your minds and entertain the notion that what you think is best may be best for you, but not what's best for the game. Or it may be what's best for the game today, but not what's best for the game next month, or next year. 

Some decisions are like that. We can't have the benefit of hindsight usually. But those who ignore history are destined to repeat it. 
Perhaps we can reach some common ground - like once the average player population per shard reaches X, then AE rewards should drop to Z. Or, alternatively, treat AE like pvp zones. When you enter the map, your build stats change to make it untenable. 

But, until the population picks up, adjusting farm rewards seems counter-productive to me. 

 

[Widower]

Could you all ratchet down the aggression? Thanks.