The Pretty Good AE Debate

[MoonSheep]

On 7/18/2022 at 6:03 PM, Shadeknight said:

• Veteran experience rewards have been returned to AE for Level 50's.
   

As from the patch notes, in case no one wants to scroll all the way down.

 

what a shame - an opportunity to introduce slight and minor change to begin re-balancing the game was rolled back as the devs were scared off by a shrieking mob of infants

 

edit: me defending my post 

 

Edited August 9, 2022 by GM Widower

[Troo]

5 minutes ago, MoonSheep said:

 

what a shame - an opportunity to introduce slight and minor change to begin re-balancing the game was rolled back as the devs were scared off by a shrieking mob of infants

 

Without any name calling, I can see you point.

 

Dev Diary will hopefully provide details on why it was initially proposed and why it was reverted.

[MoonSheep]

27 minutes ago, Troo said:

 

Without any name calling, I can see you point.

 

Dev Diary will hopefully provide details on why it was initially proposed and why it was reverted.

 

it’s written in a rather hyperbolic manner but i do stand by it. the game has become easier and easier over time, identifiable archetypes no longer exist and there’s not really any team dynamic anymore. the original CoH experience is going the way of the dodo without any meaningful intervention

 

any suggestion to introduce moderation or balance is met with a very petulant mob

[Grouchybeast]

26 minutes ago, MoonSheep said:

 

what a shame - an opportunity to introduce slight and minor change to begin re-balancing the game was rolled back as the devs were scared off by a shrieking mob of infants

 

That seems highly unlikely.  The feedback thread about the shutting down of the AE patrol XP exploit went on for 79 mind-boggling pages and still didn't change their minds.

[MoonSheep]

6 minutes ago, Grouchybeast said:

 

That seems highly unlikely.  The feedback thread about the shutting down of the AE patrol XP exploit went on for 79 mind-boggling pages and still didn't change their minds.

 

i might be misunderstanding the post i quoted, i believe the proposed change that vet levels can no longer be earned in AE has been scrapped?

[Grouchybeast]

12 minutes ago, MoonSheep said:

 

i might be misunderstanding the post i quoted, i believe the proposed change that vet levels can no longer be earned in AE has been scrapped?

 

It has been scrapped, but I very much doubt that it was because the devs were terrified into it by a few forum posts.  It seems rather more likely that they found a way to achieve their goal (which seems to have been to stop people mass-farming Emp merits in AE) without causing collateral damage to the rewards of non-farm AE stories.

[Sovera]

16 minutes ago, MoonSheep said:

 

i might be misunderstanding the post i quoted, i believe the proposed change that vet levels can no longer be earned in AE has been scrapped?

 

Yes, and you said the 'shrieking mob of infants' forced the devs to reconsider. The following post said the previous rested XP changes thread had reached 79 pages (as opposed to the 21 in this topic) and the devs had not budged.

[Wehepens]

On 7/12/2022 at 9:54 PM, Heatstroke said:

I'll try and keep my ire simple. 

 

Let me play the way I want to play. Let me level the way I want to level. Removing it is NOT going to make me play more.. Its going to make me play far less. Im not 30ish anymore with lots of time on my hand.. im 50ish with a family and kids.. I like being able to login in. farm for a little bit.. get some levels and go to bed.. 

This seems like a "Blast from Statesman's Past" i'm going to make you play the game the way I THINK you should play the game.. and many of us remember how that went. 

 

 

I couldn't have said it better myself!!!

[MoonSheep]

1 hour ago, Sovera said:

 

Yes, and you said the 'shrieking mob of infants' forced the devs to reconsider. The following post said the previous rested XP changes thread had reached 79 pages (as opposed to the 21 in this topic) and the devs had not budged.

 

it’s early days, could get to 80 by the weekend 😛

[AlwaysAPrice]

15 hours ago, AlwaysAPrice said:

Either way, looks like there's also been a change to how Patrol XP is calculated (in AE at least, which would be the only way to see it in action if it's universal) that could use a patch note, as now on Brainstorm it looks to be working the same way DXP boosters are, applying its bonus as a percentage of the received/AE-adjusted value rather than the base value.

 

Just reporting that the patch note about the change to XP Boosters (previously in the AE changes section) is missing altogether from the Build 2 notes but is still in effect when tested.

[skoryy]

13 hours ago, Blackfeather said:

 

In exchange:

 

I'll have to chew on this.  Reward merits for incarnates is a nice buff, but now we'll have buckets of unused empyreans to deal with.  But that's thoughts for another thread!

[ExeErdna]

13 hours ago, brass_eagle said:

 

I'm going to have to +1 this. It's not about more than DFBs. Atlas Park is a hub for SBB, DiB, public costume contests, new characters, tip teams, etc... With a 50-slot character limit... it can get quite laggy.

 

I've seen more than a few costume contest holders move it to a base and broadcast a password because Atlas just doesn't cut it anymore. When you've got 20+ people AFK in the AE building it will take up that limit.

 

The inflammatory reactions to the removal of a farming source to the introductory zones is something I wouldn't expect people get mad over. There's 10+ other AE buildings around.

 

It's honestly why Echo Plaza was made, it's bright, there's Icon rep right there. I completely get tradition yet dammit. It's there big group like events so people can get into Ouro, PD, etc in high traffic hours. 

Like I said the only problem really was JUST Atlas Park since Mercy is Mercy. Players that start villain have a plan already.

[luficia]

I'm looking forward to seeing about testing the merits for myself when I get a chance tonight!

 

I'd like to have some GM clarification in the Dev Diary of why the change was reverted. This sets a clear line that if people cry loud enough, they'll get what they want and those people will feel empowered. That's not a good thing.  There has to be other factors why the change was reverted but that does not fix the big problem of people just grinding in AE content and then when they choose to play content but don't know what they are doing. It's a set back, if anything.

 

The situation I mentioned before is only going to get worse. 

[Treacheres The Dastard]

There's a lot to work with here.

 

Not sure if I'll be using advanced customization for the time being. 0% on rewards for those mobs is pretty harsh, though absolutely understandable for wanting to avoid abuse cases. Even so, it may not be necessary to go that far to prevent lobotomized mob farms from popping up.

 

Here's my thought. Fire farming is already extremely safe, completely unchallenging and with an absolute zero risk of failure or even impediment. It's also very fast and relatively cheap to get a new fire farmer's build to that level of security even on max difficulty missions. Anyone can have one. Farming is accessible.

 

Lobotomite farms, in the assumed hypothetical of a map full of mobs who do nothing but look at you, wouldn't represent an easier farming approach because the difficulty for farming is already nonexistent. They also wouldn't open the door for non dedicated farming characters to powerlevel or generate Inf because that door is already open; any character can doorsit while someone else does the work and enjoy x8/+4 rewards. This option is advertised consistently enough in chat that I believe we can understand it to be available at all times.

 

In terms of what the maximum abuse case here would change for the reality of farming, I would say... not a lot. At most I see farming being slightly less social as characters wanting for levels could tackle a mission on their own instead of licking the pavement in somebody else's run. However, because abuse of systems is lame on principle, and there's a lot to be said for avoiding the janky, buggy vibe a lobotomite farm would give, I am still in favor of a restriction on rewards for custom mobs.

 

My proposal: 50%. Even 25% would be cool. Maybe no recipe drops either, but something rather than nothing. As I see it, farmers who currently face negative difficulty won't gravitate to a new flavor of negative difficulty if the rewards are lessened by any degree. This should be all that's needed to prevent these kinds of missions from existing, and at the same time, should make authors and players much more likely to consider advanced customization mobs worth their time.

 

Note: This post is not debating anything about AE, its impact, or any person discussing it.

Edited July 23, 2022 by Treacheres The Dastard
Clarification

[Sovera]

14 minutes ago, luficia said:

I'm looking forward to seeing about testing the merits for myself when I get a chance tonight!

 

I'd like to have some GM clarification in the Dev Diary of why the change was reverted. This sets a clear line that if people cry loud enough, they'll get what they want and those people will feel empowered. That's not a good thing.  There has to be other factors why the change was reverted but that does not fix the big problem of people just grinding in AE content and then when they choose to play content but don't know what they are doing. It's a set back, if anything.

 

The situation I mentioned before is only going to get worse. 

 

It does not, don't bring your assumptions and tout them as valid facts. The devs listen, yes, but when they are firm on an idea it goes through.

 

On the other hand when something you, personally, do not want and discourse against it you will be happy the devs are not dictators and will listen, and even revert the changes, if enough public opinion is against it. Is that too going to be smeared as 'loud crying' or will it be a clear and concise presentation of fact if you're the one who is doing it?

[luficia]

11 minutes ago, Sovera said:

 

It does not, don't bring your assumptions and tout them as valid facts. The devs listen, yes, but when they are firm on an idea it goes through.

 

On the other hand when something you, personally, do not want and discourse against it you will be happy the devs are not dictators and will listen, and even revert the changes, if enough public opinion is against it. Is that too going to be smeared as 'loud crying' or will it be a clear and concise presentation of fact if you're the one who is doing it?

 

Assumptions? You don't play the same content as I do. There's a serious problem grinding and not playing the game only to go try to do something like ITF and don't know what they are doing or because of the farm mentality is so high, they contribute nothing. I have to remove them.

 

I would know because I've dealt this more than once.  It is an issue. I'm just pointing it out. I'm not going to argue with you on it so please tone it down. It's a feedback channel, not a wendy's. 

[Seed22]

On 7/12/2022 at 8:54 PM, Heatstroke said:

I'll try and keep my ire simple. 

 

Let me play the way I want to play. Let me level the way I want to level. Removing it is NOT going to make me play more.. Its going to make me play far less. Im not 30ish anymore with lots of time on my hand.. im 50ish with a family and kids.. I like being able to login in. farm for a little bit.. get some levels and go to bed.. 

This seems like a "Blast from Statesman's Past" i'm going to make you play the game the way I THINK you should play the game.. and many of us remember how that went. 

 

 

Looootta these folks on this thread  don't understand that

Edited July 19, 2022 by Seed22

[Seed22]

1 minute ago, Seed22 said:

I'll try and keep my ire simple. 

 

Let me play the way I want to play. Let me level the way I want to level. Removing it is NOT going to make me play more.. Its going to make me play far less. Im not 30ish anymore with lots of time on my hand.. im 50ish with a family and kids.. I like being able to login in. farm for a little bit.. get some levels and go to bed.. 

This seems like a "Blast from Statesman's Past" i'm going to make you play the game the way I THINK you should play the game.. and many of us remember how that went. 

 

48 minutes ago, luficia said:

I'm looking forward to seeing about testing the merits for myself when I get a chance tonight!

 

I'd like to have some GM clarification in the Dev Diary of why the change was reverted. This sets a clear line that if people cry loud enough, they'll get what they want and those people will feel empowered. That's not a good thing.  There has to be other factors why the change was reverted but that does not fix the big problem of people just grinding in AE content and then when they choose to play content but don't know what they are doing. It's a set back, if anything.

 

The situation I mentioned before is only going to get worse. 

[MoonSheep]

48 minutes ago, luficia said:

I'm looking forward to seeing about testing the merits for myself when I get a chance tonight!

 

I'd like to have some GM clarification in the Dev Diary of why the change was reverted. This sets a clear line that if people cry loud enough, they'll get what they want and those people will feel empowered. That's not a good thing.  There has to be other factors why the change was reverted but that does not fix the big problem of people just grinding in AE content and then when they choose to play content but don't know what they are doing. It's a set back, if anything.

 

The situation I mentioned before is only going to get worse. 

 

i agree - my view that it was changed due to pushback may be wholly incorrect (it is a skill of mine), perhaps there was a more efficient way of delivering change

[MoonSheep]

3 minutes ago, Seed22 said:

Looootta these folks on this thread  don't understand that

 

in-game pvp is dead, Focused Feedback and Suggestions are the new Sirens Call and Warburg

[brattycommissar2]

44 minutes ago, Treacheres The Dastard said:

There's a lot to work with here.

 

Not sure if I'll be using advanced customization for the time being. 0% on rewards for those mobs is pretty harsh, though absolutely understandable for wanting to avoid abuse cases. Even so, it may not be necessary to go that far to prevent lobotomized mob farms from popping up.

 

Here's my thought. Fire farming is already extremely safe, completely unchallenging and with an absolute zero risk of failure or even impediment. It's also very fast and relatively cheap to get a new fire farmer's build to that level of security even on max difficulty missions. Anyone can have one. Farming is accessible.

 

Lobotomite farms, in the assumed hypothetical of a map full of mobs who do nothing but look at you, wouldn't represent an easier farming approach because the difficulty for farming is already nonexistent. They also wouldn't open the door for non dedicated farming characters to powerlevel or generate Inf because that door is already open; any character can doorsit while someone else does the work and enjoy x8/+4 rewards. This option is advertised consistently enough in chat that I believe we can understand it to be available at all times.

 

In terms of what the maximum abuse case here would change for the reality of farming, I would say... not a lot. At most I see farming being slightly less social as characters wanting for levels could tackle a mission on their own instead of licking the pavement in somebody else's run. However, because abuse of systems is lame on principle, and there's a lot to be said for avoiding the janky, buggy vibe a lobotomite farm would give, I am still in favor of a restriction on rewards for custom mobs.

 

My proposal: 50%. Even 25% would be cool. Maybe no recipe drops either, but something rather than nothing. As I see it, farmers who currently face negative difficulty won't gravitate to a new flavor of negative difficulty if the rewards are lessened by any degree. This should be all that's needed to prevent these kinds of missions from existing, and at the same time, should make authors and players much more likely to consider advanced customization mobs worth their time. 

i'd rather this than nothing, even if i think that it's probably fine to give normal ae rewards because farms are already so safe that the difference in safety between existing fire farms and these hypothetical ones is nil aside from the fact that the barrier to entry will fundamentally change- farmers just won't have to be built out to make things be 0 danger. idk, i'd just rather there be a not-just-for-story reason for using advanced mobs even if it's reduced? or there's loops you gotta jump through? or something?

[ForeverLaxx]

1 hour ago, luficia said:

This sets a clear line that if people cry loud enough, they'll get what they want and those people will feel empowered. That's not a good thing

Well good news, then. Full reversions for reasons other than unforeseen bugs/consequences are rare. In nearly all cases, when something hits "public" Beta, it's happening. All that tends to change is the severity, if anything at all. It's been one of my biggest complaints in feedback threads of the past.

 

So take heart. Most of the changes that get through their closed testing where only certain people are allowed input will continue to make it through the public testing phase. No need to worry about people who "cry loud enough" or whatever.

[UltraAlt]

On 7/12/2022 at 3:43 PM, nyttyn said:

as dedicated farmer Brute builds have a tendency to struggle in non-farm content

 

Great.

They only excel by abusing the system that wasn't created to be used for farming.

 

The AE changes are anti-farming. The AE was not built for farming.

 

I make  A LOT of influence off of farmers and those that they power level.

They don't have respect for the currency. They think they are swimming it it when they are actually in the kiddie pool.

 

Removing the AE from Atlas is great, but more needs to be done to stop the power-leveling.

It might be time to start rethinking about locking the AE to level 50's only.

[JayboH]

1 hour ago, UltraAlt said:

Removing the AE from Atlas is great, but more needs to be done to stop the power-leveling.

I can tell you flat-out that isn't happening.

 

The devs have stated PLing to 50 in AE is not a concern - and this patch confirms that too...  it's the part after that that they want to control.

[ForeverLaxx]

1 hour ago, UltraAlt said:

Removing the AE from Atlas is great, but more needs to be done to stop the power-leveling

Why do you view everything with a lens that's permanently set to "PLing is Evil"?

 

I'm genuinely curious.

Edited July 19, 2022 by ForeverLaxx
grammar