The Pretty Good AE Debate

[kelika2]

1 hour ago, Akisan said:

 it's way not cool to change the text of a quote

hard disagree because many people just like to tell alternate truths with more words than needed, a hard translation is needed

[ivanhedgehog]

2 hours ago, Bionic_Flea said:

 

I'd like to see that too.  The only thing I can offer is 2 year old data.

Fire Brutes were so prevalent that they broke it out as a category.  About 30k fire brutes (or about 2.5% of total characters made) accounted for 32% of total hours played!

I run fire brutes through all sorts of content, although I have been doing fire tanks lately. I kinda like tanks better. I wasnt really happy with the stone chnages so I dont really run them much anymore. Dont assume that fire brutes are all farm. only 1 of mine has farmed and I have 6 that I play.

[Bionic_Flea]

10 minutes ago, ivanhedgehog said:

big assumption. fire farming doesnt give the best rewards.

Sorry, but you are either delusional or disingenuous.

 

You refuse to accept the truth that when players can choose their maps and their enemies it's like Lebron playing against elementary school kids.  It wouldn't matter if the elementary kids got 2 points per basket and Lebron only got 1.

Edited July 23, 2022 by Bionic_Flea

[arcane]

19 minutes ago, ivanhedgehog said:

good thing you dont get 10x rewards in AE. problem solved!!!! you know I have to do 100 points of damage to kill a 100 hp opponent anywhere in the game? Including AE? sounds like there isnt a problem to solve here.

You’re really bad at this

[ivanhedgehog]

13 minutes ago, Troo said:

 

So you think if someone doesn't do the 100 points of damage to kill a 100 hp opponent they should not get any reward? I'm glad the game is a bit more nuanced. 😉

no rewards happen unless something is defeated(except for mission bonus which doesnt happen in AE) people are whining because farmers are doing more than them and getting rewarded for it. They NEVER get this mythical 10x rewards people have made up.

[ivanhedgehog]

8 minutes ago, Bionic_Flea said:

Sorry, but you are either delusional or disingenuous.

 

You refuse to accept the truth that when players can choose their maps and their enemies it's like Lebron playing against elementary school kids.  It wouldn't matter if the elementary kids got 2 points per basket and Lebron only got 1.

Are you trying to tell me PI radio teams are difficult? really?

[Bionic_Flea]

2 minutes ago, ivanhedgehog said:

Are you trying to tell me PI radio teams are difficult? really?

I didn't say anything of the sort. 

 

Delusional or disingenuous?

[ivanhedgehog]

2 minutes ago, Bionic_Flea said:

I didn't say anything of the sort. 

 

Delusional or disingenuous?

Yes, you are delusional. You are trying to say that ae mobs die on command, yet non ae mobs are a threat. I dont know what game you are playing but it isnt COH. I can choose my enemies just fine in the open world.

[arcane]

10 minutes ago, ivanhedgehog said:

Yes, you are delusional. You are trying to say that ae mobs die on command, yet non ae mobs are a threat. I dont know what game you are playing but it isnt COH. I can choose my enemies just fine in the open world.

Lol. Completely clueless. Thank you for broadcasting to everyone that your opinions about the beta patch can be safely disregarded.

[MoonSheep]

well, back on track to the debate

 

i do think balance is the ultimate objective. a large playerbase is nice, though it shouldn’t take priority over trying to develop CoX into it’s “truest” form

 

the development of the game is largely an artform and is the basis for the experience. a lot of the debate is about right vs wrong, however the artistic goal seems to be absent from the discussion

 

AE as a concept was an opportunity for art - and often is in many cases, however it’s mostly known for its (currently) permitted game exploits

[Bionic_Flea]

31 minutes ago, ivanhedgehog said:

You are trying to say that ae mobs die on command, yet non ae mobs are a threat.

Once again, I have not said, am not saying, nor trying to say anything of the sort.

[Bionic_Flea]

1 hour ago, Troo said:

 

6 hours ago, Bionic_Flea said:

Assuming that fire-farming should give the best rewards, how much better should it be relative to other content?  The same, twice as good?  Ten times as good?  More?

 

Okay, playing along.

Ideally equal.

 

Given the difference between AE and non-AE content is mainly travel, spawn spacing and variety of mission types. AE rewards operate at a reduced amount.

With the removal of the custom critter 'bug' and the aggro cap changes, hopefully AE and non-AE rewards can get closer to the same per mob. It might take another revision but that should be the goal. Let play play how they want.

 

More appropriately it would be great to get an official stance/answer from Homecoming to set expectations. I am only one voice.

Homecoming might not be for everyone and that's okay. I want everyone here, but I get it. Choices & consequences.

Thanks for at least giving an answer Troo.

 

AE has a few advantages:

 

1) custom made critters

2) custom made maps

3) lack of travel

4) designer's intent

 

When you custom design critters that can barely hurt you on maps that are super dense, even at half the rewards per kill you get elsewhere, you can earn a lot really fast. 

 

Believe it or not, I don't have a problem with that.  If you want to sit in AE and kill waves of chumps all day long, have at it.  But I do think that there should be some reduction in farm rewards and increase in non-farm rewards.  I don't know what the numbers are or what they should be.  All I know is the AE fire farms are so much better than anything else that it's becoming the default for many players.

[battlewraith]

1 hour ago, Bionic_Flea said:

Believe it or not, I don't have a problem with that.  If you want to sit in AE and kill waves of chumps all day long, have at it.  But I do think that there should be some reduction in farm rewards and increase in non-farm rewards.  I don't know what the numbers are or what they should be.  All I know is the AE fire farms are so much better than anything else that it's becoming the default for many players.

 

Which is indicative of what? Isn't the underlying problem the fact that a lot of the ordinary content just isn't appealing for these players? 

Nerfing AE fire farms doesn't suddenly make the content people are skipping any funner.

[Akisan]

4 minutes ago, battlewraith said:

Nerfing AE fire farms doesn't suddenly make the content people are skipping any funner.

 

It doesn't, but it does help address the feeling that you're running content with sub-optimal rewards.  And again, one of the big problems with fire farms isn't with how fun they may or may not but, but about how low-risk they are.  If they were running farms populated with, say, Malta Agents, I'd be A-OK with AE giving normal rewards, because that's at least a balanced enemy group. But they're not, because why run hazardous content when easy content gives the same (or better) rewards.

[Bionic_Flea]

22 minutes ago, battlewraith said:

Nerfing AE fire farms doesn't suddenly make the content people are skipping any funner.

This is true. 

 

People like what they like and most don't like boring, repetitive content.  Except that's exactly what farms are -- boring and repetitive content.  People aren't running farms because they're better written then the rest of the game; they're running them because they give great rewards quickly, despite being boring and repetitive.

 

If AE farms only gave tickets, people would go back to farming something else.  Does that make the Old Dreck farm funner?

[battlewraith]

58 minutes ago, Bionic_Flea said:

People like what they like and most don't like boring, repetitive content.  Except that's exactly what farms are -- boring and repetitive content.  People aren't running farms because they're better written then the rest of the game; they're running them because they give great rewards quickly, despite being boring and repetitive.

 

Yes, but you're missing the point. I want to achieve some objective--say creating a new build that I have planned out and want to use to run certain TFs with my friends. I have to level that character to 50 and then do all the slotting and accolades, etc. Getting that character to 50 involves running repetitive content that I have done for years. Do I want to spend a long tedious slog going through regular content, or get on a fire farm and grind out those levels I need in a few hours? NEITHER of these option is fun. One is just a much better way of getting that initial phase out of the way so I can use the character in the way that I enjoy.  Cmon, you know this.

 

[ivanhedgehog]

16 minutes ago, Akisan said:

 

It doesn't, but it does help address the feeling that you're running content with sub-optimal rewards.  And again, one of the big problems with fire farms isn't with how fun they may or may not but, but about how low-risk they are.  If they were running farms populated with, say, Malta Agents, I'd be A-OK with AE giving normal rewards, because that's at least a balanced enemy group. But they're not, because why run hazardous content when easy content gives the same (or better) rewards.

 

15 minutes ago, Bionic_Flea said:

This is true. 

 

People like what they like and most don't like boring, repetitive content.  Except that's exactly what farms are -- boring and repetitive content.  People aren't running farms because they're better written then the rest of the game; they're running them because they give great rewards quickly, despite being boring and repetitive.

 

If AE farms only gave tickets, people would go back to farming something else.  Does that make the Old Dreck farm funner?

I find it interesting that you have appointed yourself a commissioner of fun. That is kind of arrogant to decide that for everyone. First you decide that your opinions are facts and then you decide what is fun. You are making the same mistake that ncsoft did. If you destroy what people find fun, they will not flock to the activity you have declared they should do. I dont wish you good luck with that, because when ncsoft did it it took away my favorite game. you want to do it again.

[Bionic_Flea]

Oh I get it.  Fire farmers are faster leveling than anything else in the game.  But your initial response was that "ordinary content isn't appealing" and that "Nerfing AE fire farms doesn't suddenly make the content people are skipping any funner."  I interpreted those statements as an implication that the farms were appealing and fun.

[Bionic_Flea]

6 minutes ago, ivanhedgehog said:

I find it interesting that you have appointed yourself a commissioner of fun. That is kind of arrogant to decide that for everyone. First you decide that your opinions are facts and then you decide what is fun. You are making the same mistake that ncsoft did. If you destroy what people find fun, they will not flock to the activity you have declared they should do. I dont wish you good luck with that, because when ncsoft did it it took away my favorite game. you want to do it again.

You keep quoting me and stating that I am saying things that I'm not.

 

I'm just sharing my thought and opinions.  I'm no Commissioner of Fun, although I'd make a damn fine one!

 

You're entitled to your own opinions, not matter how wrong they might be.  😜

[Akisan]

2 hours ago, kelika2 said:

hard disagree because many people just like to tell alternate truths with more words than needed, a hard translation is needed

 

Nice misquote on me, too.  I said "it's way not cool to change the text of a quote without noting that it's been edited".  If you want/need to translate something, fine, but you need to note that it's been edited.  It's extremely dishonest, and more than a little misleading, to say that so-and-so said "these exact words", when they, in fact, said "these other, possibly very different exact words".

 

21 minutes ago, ivanhedgehog said:

I find it interesting that you have appointed yourself a commissioner of fun. <snip>

 

I have made no claims on how fun farms may or may not be.  Again, the problem is that they're both demonstrably easier, and more rewarding, than other content.  If, compared to other content, they were harder (with higher rewards) or easier (with lower rewards) that would be fine.  I don't have problems with people running the same maps over and over and over again.  Just because I don't find it fun doesn't mean they aren't having a blast.  I do have problems when that same hypothetical person is getting significantly more rewards for significantly less risk.

Edited July 23, 2022 by Akisan

[MoonSheep]

21 minutes ago, battlewraith said:

 

Yes, but you're missing the point. I want to achieve some objective--say creating a new build that I have planned out and want to use to run certain TFs with my friends. I have to level that character to 50 and then do all the slotting and accolades, etc. Getting that character to 50 involves running repetitive content that I have done for years. Do I want to spend a long tedious slog going through regular content, or get on a fire farm and grind out those levels I need in a few hours? NEITHER of these option is fun. One is just a much better way of getting that initial phase out of the way so I can use the character in the way that I enjoy.  Cmon, you know this.

 

 

i think this is a good example of expectations management. trying to play an MMORPG as a pickup and play FPS is going to cause friction. CoH isn’t a superhero version of Left 4 Dead

 

MMO’s have art, creativity and journey progression as their core gameplay offering. Exploits such as AE farms are designed to circumvent this which is why there is some pushback to the practice of auto-win

[Coyotedancer]

23 minutes ago, Bionic_Flea said:

Oh I get it.  Fire farmers are faster leveling than anything else in the game.  But your initial response was that "ordinary content isn't appealing" and that "Nerfing AE fire farms doesn't suddenly make the content people are skipping any funner."  I interpreted those statements as an implication that the farms were appealing and fun.

 

Just a gentle reminder here, Flea... But some of us really do farm for fun.

 

I know the "OMG REAL CONTENT!" types will never believe that, but I promise you it's true.

[battlewraith]

1 hour ago, MoonSheep said:

 

i think this is a good example of expectations management. trying to play an MMORPG as a pickup and play FPS is going to cause friction. CoH isn’t a superhero version of Left 4 Dead

 

MMO’s have art, creativity and journey progression as their core gameplay offering. Exploits such as AE farms are designed to circumvent this which is why there is some pushback to the practice of auto-win

 

Art, creativity, journey progression--yup that's all great for a while. Eventually, it gets old. The game is close to 20 years old. Telling a veteran who started this game in 2004 that farming is an exploit to circumvent this core gameplay in order to auto-win is utterly silly. How many times do I need to repeat a mission or TF in order to establish that I "won" it. The very fact that people are still hanging around pursuing their obsession with different facets of the game is a major win. Let people have fun the way they want. 

[Bionic_Flea]

I believe you.  Sometimes I like farming because it's predicable and you can get into a rhythm and it can be relaxing.  But I also realize that I'm making bank.  Pretending that I'm not making bank or that farms aren't repetitive is not a reality I am familiar with.

[Bionic_Flea]

3 minutes ago, battlewraith said:

Let people have fun the way they want.

 

Would you still have fun if the AE rewards were removed? Or halved? Or otherwise reduced?

 

I mean, you could still do exactly the same thing, only for a little less bank.  Is the farm fun or is the bank fun?