Nul the gull kheldian toggle please.

[Leandro]

_{I have to point out that you yourself just used "flag" to describe the counter, Leo.}

 

I mean to say there's no flag on a character that can be set or unset; the flag is on the encounter (the enemies that spawn), controlled by HasKheldianTeamMember.

 

static int HasKheldianTeamMember(Entity* e)
{
if (NullTheGullProposedFlag)  //EXAMPLE this doesn't quite make sense for the logic of this function since it actually needs to look at e,
	return 0;	      //EXAMPLE not some random bool floating out in nowhere, but it should be sufficiently illustrative

 

This most likely won't do what you want, because the "e" here is the instigator, the entity that triggered the encountergroup. If you set this flag on yourself, but a scrapper without the flag runs further ahead and spawns things, you'll get Quantums.

 

What if the Kheldian invites me to their mission?  Suddenly all their Quants won't spawn, because now we are teaming?

 

If you're the one triggering the spawns, yes; also, under Jack's change soloing Kheldians wouldn't get any Quantums if they enabled that flag. This goes way farther than fixing the bug, since Quantums should spawn for Kheldians as part of their design (whether that's good or bad design is an entirely different discussion). The "proper" bugfix here is to make Quantums only spawn when there's a Kheldian on the team.

[jack_nomind]

This most likely won't do what you want, because the "e" here is the instigator, the entity that triggered the encountergroup. If you set this flag on yourself, but a scrapper

without the flag runs further ahead and spawns things, you'll get Quantums.

 

Good point!  So as a different illustrative hack,

 

int teamAddMember(Entity* e, ContainerType type, int team_id, int invited_by)
...
if (type == CONTAINER_TEAMUPS)
{
	if (members->count > e->teamup->maximumPlayerCount)
		e->teamup->maximumPlayerCount = members->count;
	if (IsKheldian(e) && !ProposedNullTheGullFlag)		//EXAMPLE again, not really right but w/e
		e->teamup->kheldianCount++;
	TeamHandleMemberChange(1, e);
...
}

 

I'm including this because:

 

If you're the one triggering the spawns, yes; also, under Jack's change soloing Kheldians wouldn't get any Quantums if they enabled that flag. This goes way farther than fixing the bug, since Quantums should spawn for Kheldians as part of their design (whether that's good or bad design is an entirely different discussion).

 

My understanding of the original request was that the player asking was in fact playing a Kheldian and asking for their quantums to stop spawning outside of "non-kheldian story arcs," particularly per their discussion of Quants as a balancing mechanic.  I think this was intended to be that entirely different discussion.

[Gauntlet_Prime]

To clarify, I am not saying that i want quants and the other kheldian triggered mobs to be cut from the game.  I am asking for the ability to for individual kheldians to be able to make the choice of whether they want to deal with them.  This is no different then allowing people to choose whether speed boost from other players effect their running speed (please understand I am talking philosophically not coding-wise).  It is a matter of personal preference for each player.  If you want quants in every single mission then you would keep them.

 

As far as how you might effect a group that is where this gets complicated and I understand that.  This is a suggested feature that I think would be useful to many players.  If the team decides this is worth investing time in, great.  If not, that is their right to do.  But lets try not to be super negative or dismissive because you personally would not use the flag. 

 

Things similar to "git gud" or "I like them so no one should get a choice!" is not what is being proposed here.  It is just a suggestion for the freedom to choose.

[justicebeliever]

No intent to be negative...I'm all for player choices and Quality of Life improvements.  I just noticed that the proposed solution was more complicated than it appears at first blush...

 

So my question to you, for fair perspective and given the limited resources of development here, would you want this change more than a new Powerset?  a new Archetype?  New Story Arcs?  New Costume Pieces?

 

It may be that you feel yes to all of those, and I won't say you are wrong, just that I wouldn't agree with your priorities...

[Chance Jackson]

I support a toggle.

[Llewellyn Blackwell]

I myself am more of the buff kheldians to make them having a true kryptonite worth it camp.

 

In the old days I used to ahve this big what if, specifically for PB but I am sure it could b easily adapted to WS to, of the end old tank style crashing Light Form it instead was a super awesome toggle that gave them in human form access to all the nova and dwarf form powers at once. I dont know why I just always thought that would be a way cooler and thematic end ability for the PB then a Light Form that is just a tank end power with the so hated crash and likely die issue. I mean sure you can self rez, but eh not my ideal play style so Ive always ignored Light Form.

[Black Zot]

The lore defense for this ill-begotten "feature" is simply bad writing.  There's no logical reason for half the factions in the game to even have access to (and know how to use) pieces of alien hardware specifically intended for one race of alien symbiotes, AND just happen to have them on-hand on the offchance that one of those symbiotes shows up alongside a party of other supers to thwart an otherwise-normal operation.  Even for tech-focused enemy groups, that level of coincidence strains suspension of disbelief.  For magic-oriented groups or just plain street-thug gangs, it's outright BS.

 

From a game design perspective, this is akin to checking if there's a tanker on the team, and if so, spawning a bunch of enemies with abilities that ignore defense/resistance toggles.  Or treating a group with a mastermind to an enemy that does more damage per target for each target his AoE hits. 

 

"Hey, we're going to put this cool character option in the game, but if you take it, you'll have to spend your entire hero career getting randomly hard-countered by enemies spawned specifically for you.  What do you mean we've made you a detriment to your team in a team-focused game?  It's LORE!"

[jack_nomind]

It's not that it's City of Heroes lore -- it's that it's golden-age comic-book lore.

 

Superman:	Kryptonite
Green Lantern:	Originally "wood"; later "the color yellow."
Wonder Woman:	Having her hands bound by a man.
Martian Manhunter:	Fire
Hourman, Elongated Man, etc:	Drugs that wear off after an arbitrary time limit

 

Hopefully you can see why they went with the "kryptonite" angle.  The lore reason so many enemy groups have access to Quant guns is the same lore reasons so many of Superman's enemies have access to Kryptonite; they know it works, so they sought it out.

[Black Zot]

Bad writing is bad writing, and bad game design is bad game design.  The grandfather clause does not excuse either one.

[SwitchFade]

Bad writing is bad writing, and bad game design is bad game design.  The grandfather clause does not excuse either one.

 

Keldian lore is exceptional writing, and the design around it is exceptional game design.

 

To speak to the point that every group has access to the alien tech when quants appear, when confronted with a threat and having no way to counter it, one would seek out methods of doing just that. A few examples...

 

The US asking for help when fighting for independence

 

The allies, when being overrun by the axis

 

Police departments when in need of tech to counter criminal threat

 

These are bland examples. The tech is out there to defeat my foes? Go get the tech, pay whatever price...

 

Outcasts have quant guns.

 

So, good lore and good design.

[eldriyth]

This is a good idea OP. If we can easily switch from hero/villains, why can't we become rogues too with an easy switch? Limiting everything behind a wall makes the process exhausting and just pushes players to go to the next big thing even more. Especially after E3 with all the games coming out.

[Black Zot]

 

Keldian lore is exceptional writing, and the design around it is exceptional game design.

 

 

 

"Roll the dice to see whether you get to play your character this mission" is NOT, and NEVER WILL BE, good game design.

 

Ubiquitous samples of an allegedly hard-to-come-by substance or technology is likewise mutually exclusive with good writing.  Your examples are all but meaningless because they assume quantum weapons (explicitly black box tech even to most of the people you would normally go to for super-science stuff) can be feasibly manufactured on Earth in sufficient quantity to meet the demand displayed ingame.  This is an absolutely ludicrous assumption, on par with assuming the allies could spontaneously come up with force fields to counter nazis suddenly getting their hands on 22nd century technology (and for that matter, assuming the nazis would have the means to mass-produce the wonder-weapons in question).

[jack_nomind]

This is an absolutely ludicrous assumption, on par with assuming the allies could spontaneously come up with force fields to counter nazis suddenly getting their hands on 22nd century technology (and for that matter, assuming the nazis would have the means to mass-produce the wonder-weapons in question).

 

I hear your point, but in counter-argument, I present

.

 

but i mean if we're talking about supply-chain problems i honestly don't even know how they keep up with daily requirements of regular bullets in Paragon City.

[Black Zot]

This is an absolutely ludicrous assumption, on par with assuming the allies could spontaneously come up with force fields to counter nazis suddenly getting their hands on 22nd century technology (and for that matter, assuming the nazis would have the means to mass-produce the wonder-weapons in question).

 

I hear your point, but in counter-argument, I present

.

 

but i mean if we're talking about supply-chain problems i honestly don't even know how they keep up with daily requirements of regular bullets in Paragon City.

 

Please.  This is an American city.  Between legal channels and the black market, mundane guns and ammo are effectively in a post-scarcity state.  The only challenge would be making sure your supply guy didn't send you the wrong caliber by accident.

[SwitchFade]

 

Keldian lore is exceptional writing, and the design around it is exceptional game design.

 

 

 

"Roll the dice to see whether you get to play your character this mission" is NOT, and NEVER WILL BE, good game design.

 

Ubiquitous samples of an allegedly hard-to-come-by substance or technology is likewise mutually exclusive with good writing.  Your examples are all but meaningless because they assume quantum weapons (explicitly black box tech even to most of the people you would normally go to for super-science stuff) can be feasibly manufactured on Earth in sufficient quantity to meet the demand displayed ingame.  This is an absolutely ludicrous assumption, on par with assuming the allies could spontaneously come up with force fields to counter nazis suddenly getting their hands on 22nd century technology (and for that matter, assuming the nazis would have the means to mass-produce the wonder-weapons in question).

 

Thanks for your feedback. I hope you will join me in providing your opinions and insight in a respectful manner. I believe we can agree that being demeaning of differing opinions is unacceptable.

 

I disagree with you, and think it is good writing and good design. I see you feel my opinion is ludicrous. I hope you will refrain from looking down on my opinion, as I have not done so concerning your opinion. Your opinion is valid, and mine is EQUALLY valid.

 

We disagree, and I believe the current method is good, the writing is good, and the implementation is good.

[justicebeliever]

Ubiquitous samples of an allegedly hard-to-come-by substance or technology is likewise mutually exclusive with good writing.  Your examples are all but meaningless because they assume quantum weapons (explicitly black box tech even to most of the people you would normally go to for super-science stuff) can be feasibly manufactured on Earth in sufficient quantity to meet the demand displayed ingame.  This is an absolutely ludicrous assumption, on par with assuming the allies could spontaneously come up with force fields to counter nazis suddenly getting their hands on 22nd century technology (and for that matter, assuming the nazis would have the means to mass-produce the wonder-weapons in question).

 

So if the Nictus have been on earth for many decades before the Warshades and Peacebringers came.  And if the PB's are their mortal enemies.  And supposing they prepared for the eventuality that their arch-enemies would come...couldn't they have been preparing weapons this whole time that could defeat their enemies when they finally arrived?  Wouldn't they want to propagate that technology to any faction that would a.) use it to attack their foes, and b.) their foes would likely encounter?

 

I mean, let's face, this game isn't about winning Eisner awards here, but it's not so ludicrous to me in a world where I can never die, and always be teleported to the hospital at just the last possible second, no matter how much force is used against me.

[leese]

Quant/Void lore is not particularly interesting or vital to Kheldian lore, so I don't really care about it. My problems are more mechanical. The central conceit is OK but the actual design is not very good.

 

- They're pretty much constant from 1-50 and never evolve. The Quant you encounter at level 50 is functionally no different from the one at level 1 and familiarity has made it much less interesting.

- This means that they're really extremely dangerous at low levels, before Khelds (especially PBs I think) have gained high damage or reliable control powers, and increasingly trivial as you near 50, which is the opposite of a good power curve.

- They can appear in ambushes or alongside bosses, which can be a death sentence for the player. Or just be hiding behind a corner when the player attacks.

- Kheldians are simply not powerful enough to justify having their own special kryptonite baked into most enemy groups. They don't have an advantage over other ATs to counteract, and are not strictly a veteran AT anymore as they are unlocked immediately on Homecoming.

 

As a comparison, I can think of a few other enemies that I believe have special rules making their spawns rarer or limiting them to one per group when solo, which I think makes them comparable to anti-Khelds. Vahz Embalmed Cadaver, Sky Raider Engineers and Rikti Comms Officers spring to mind. Like Quants they're all high priority targets and not dealing with them first can make a fight much harder. Unlike Quants, the dangerous things they do can be interrupted, making them much less dangerous to a player than a Quant is to a Kheldian.

 

If there was a chance for every mob group in the game to add a Sky Raiders Engineer who couldn't be interrupted to it, the players would riot. At best it would just get monotonous to keep seeing him. And why shouldn't that happen? Their bots are very good at defending their troops, so really every group in the game should be trying to get them if you think about it. And surely the Hellions should be able to source limitless supplies of this high technology.

 

I'd love to see Quants and Voids reworked to make them better. It's almost midnight here so I'm not going to stay up late typing much longer, so I'm not going to make suggestions. Besides, it's probably a lot of work for the devs. In the meanwhile, I think asking for a switch to just turn them off is pretty reasonable and probably more easily achievable.

[Black Zot]

Ubiquitous samples of an allegedly hard-to-come-by substance or technology is likewise mutually exclusive with good writing.  Your examples are all but meaningless because they assume quantum weapons (explicitly black box tech even to most of the people you would normally go to for super-science stuff) can be feasibly manufactured on Earth in sufficient quantity to meet the demand displayed ingame.  This is an absolutely ludicrous assumption, on par with assuming the allies could spontaneously come up with force fields to counter nazis suddenly getting their hands on 22nd century technology (and for that matter, assuming the nazis would have the means to mass-produce the wonder-weapons in question).

 

So if the Nictus have been on earth for many decades before the Warshades and Peacebringers came.  And if the PB's are their mortal enemies.  And supposing they prepared for the eventuality that their arch-enemies would come...couldn't they have been preparing weapons this whole time that could defeat their enemies when they finally arrived?  Wouldn't they want to propagate that technology to any faction that would a.) use it to attack their foes, and b.) their foes would likely encounter?

 

I mean, let's face, this game isn't about winning Eisner awards here, but it's not so ludicrous to me in a world where I can never die, and always be teleported to the hospital at just the last possible second, no matter how much force is used against me.

 

Nictus, being kheldians themselves, are every bit as vulnerable (in the fluff at least) to quantum weapons as their good-guy counterparts.  Propagating a technology liable to slaughter your own troops to groups who have no reason not to turn them on you is spectacularly stupid, even for a comic book villain.

[justicebeliever]

If there was a chance for every mob group in the game to add a Sky Raiders Engineer who couldn't be interrupted to it, the players would riot. At best it would just get monotonous to keep seeing him. And why shouldn't that happen? Their bots are very good at defending their troops, so really every group in the game should be trying to get them if you think about it. And surely the Hellions should be able to source limitless supplies of this high technology.

 

You make good points...I would riot if every mob from lvl 1 onwards had the ability to create a force field generator...And like you said, it's not any more unlikely than the Quants with the Kheldians...

 

I've never been opposed to this, again for clarity, I'm still just saying...Is it worth the trade off's it would incur?

[justicebeliever]

Nictus, being kheldians themselves, are every bit as vulnerable (in the fluff at least) to quantum weapons as their good-guy counterparts.  Propagating a technology liable to slaughter your own troops to groups who have no reason not to turn them on you is spectacularly stupid, even for a comic book villain.

 

IDK, some of the higher ups in the Council/5th Column seem a little cracked in the head (you know Requiem isn't all that well).  You know the kind of super villain that says they have a plan to do X or Y, but really just wants to blow stuff up.  I've even heard of popular movies having a villain who wants to preserve resources in the universe, but his solution is to wipe out half off everything, which just leaves things status quo, with half the people having half the resources to live on...

 

BTW, I did say that CoH wasn't great writing, so take what I said above as a little tongue in cheek

[jack_nomind]

- They're pretty much constant from 1-50 and never evolve. The Quant you encounter at level 50 is functionally no different from the one at level 1 and familiarity has made it much less interesting.

- This means that they're really extremely dangerous at low levels, before Khelds (especially PBs I think) have gained high damage or reliable control powers, and increasingly trivial as you near 50, which is the opposite of a good power curve.

 

Cysts were originally the response to this.  You'd still get quants, but the variety and difficulty of spawns would increase.  I'm not playing any Kheldians right now but the high-level ones I've teamed with or spoken to report Cysts are not spawning (outside of ITF).

 

- Kheldians are simply not powerful enough to justify having their own special kryptonite baked into most enemy groups. They don't have an advantage over other ATs to counteract, and are not strictly a veteran AT anymore as they are unlocked immediately on Homecoming.

 

Certainly agreed.  Kheldians were introduced under Emmert's (more or less) original CoH paradigm.  The combination of range and armor supposedly made them close enough to indestructible as to warrant kryptonite.  We know that isn't the case, but Kheldians (while not totally abandoned) never really got the pass they deserved to bring them to their original vision.

[Gauntlet_Prime]

I agree that finding a way to make this into a toggle is a lot of work and may not be worth it.  But the fact that it appears to be pretty widely accepted that it isn't exactly a fun mechanic, perhaps it warrants a broader discussion on what kheldians need to be brought into line with other ATs. 

 

• If they have a kryptonite does it need to show up consistently from 1-50?
  
• Is having their kryptonite in every mission make a lot of sense in most stories?
  
• Should they be more varied and interesting or should they evolve at you level similar to council mobs?
  

 

I would like to hear what people think in this regard.

[Redlynne]

I'm pretty sure that if the Quantums and Voids and so on were simply "swapped out" for Soldiers of Arachnos (etc.) no one would have a problem.

 

Likewise, I'm pretty sure that if the Quantums and Voids and so on were simply "swapped out" for Malta Sappers that EVERYONE would have a problem.

 

So there's that ...