Softcap for new ITF?

[Thrax]

Is it possible?  At any difficulty?  I assume the value gets higher the harder it goes but have no idea. Thought about trying to get there if it is even possible. 

[Doomguide2005]

     Not happening at 4-star at least continuously sustainable.  Partly because it's really 'soft' depending on how the foes are buffing themselves. @Lineaposted some numbers in one recent thread and at least one case of things gone to hell in a hand-basket value was sitting near the hard cap for melee.  As in a support character can't reach that value for their AT (>175%).  There's a reason access to power boosted Force Field shields is a good idea and access to t4 Incarnate abilities.

 

Going off the top of my 62 year old brain (🙄):

50 base

+30 HM to hit buff

+ ~15 for Incarnate buff 

--> soft cap is now about 90%, but wait there's more, they'll stack Tactics up to 4 times at about +25% per ... then there's the debuffs potentially heading your way.  That's 4 star and yes those numbers drop as you go back towards 1-star.  Linea said she could handle 2-star (solo), but 3-star wasn't happening in anything approaching reasonable time on Angel Hornet as I recall.

 

My SR scrapper could conceivably manage the lower end (~110% defense sans Barrier)  for about 180 seconds (then Elude crashes) and I'm either well clear of the fight or dead without support.

[Linea]

 

Non-AV: Base 45 + ceiling(25,(10 *  floor(0,$Star - 1)))) + ( Tactics Stacking 25 * $Star)

*Base might be 59, here, but I'm pretty sure it's only 45.  (at least some of) the AVs are definitely 64 and that's intentional.

AV: Base 64 + ceiling(25,(10 *  floor(0,$Star - 1)))) + ( Tactics Stacking 25 * ($Star+1))

*There's some funny math with the scaling or tables.  65 intended in the tables translates in-game to 63.75.   the +30 intended translates in-game to only 25.  I don't know the exact translations so I just say !@#$ It and used Ceiling (25, ...), and rounded 63.75 to 64.  I could go pull in-game numbers from each variation, but it's not worth the hassle, it's close enough as

 

4-Star

tldr - 200 defense is the 4-star ITF defense soft-cap

NOTE: If you Leroy, Squishies will have a minimum chance to be hit of 50% even if they are HARD CAPPED at the AT CAPS. ... 4-star has a 2x acc modifer.   That means if you have hard capped squishy defense of 175 and are facing a fully Leroy Room for 200 defense softcap, you will be hit (200 - 175) * 2 = 50% of the time.

• n/a defense - The minimum defense soft cap, assuming you pull, assuming you NEVER get an EB, ... is unreasonable, as EBs back almost every spawn, so just skip this one, It'll get you killed.
• 100 defense - The Average Softcap Assuming you pull and never get 2 spawns and never get any Adds. 
• 139 defense - Rommy's Softcap.
• 200 defense - The soft cap if you decide to use Leroy Jenkins Tactics. 

 

 

 

Edited August 31, 2022 by Linea

[Doomguide2005]

@Linea

If a support AT is over-capped for defense i.e. sitting at 220 (to pick random number) does that extra 45 counter any of the foe to hit before getting 'clamped' at 175 if you follow me?  Basically is it worth getting buffed above the cap either to offset their to hit or defdebuffs or both?

 

Edit: Brains melting at the moment ... thinking either way you're at 175 and eating a ton of incoming.

 

Edit 2:  The above is why the suggestion to diminish or eliminate Barrier as being OP makes no bleeding sense at least wrt to Hard Mode content

Edited August 31, 2022 by Doomguide2005
Afterthoughts

[Sir Myshkin]

12 hours ago, Doomguide2005 said:

@Linea said she could handle 2-star (solo)

Sigh. Alright. Challenge accepted.

[Aracknight]

Yeah...SR has a new challenge.  I've been on two 2-star pugs, one successful, one not.  I found value in hitting and running, and, to a certain level of shame, relying on epic ranged powers to keep my distance.  Definitely avoid groups, pick off stragglers, take out surgeons and engineers, and gtfo of the way when an EB is about to go down because fake nictus me is a fucking menace.  Let the tank tank and the troller troll before engaging.  Scrapperlock is the enemy.  Certainly not soloable in my current configuration.

Edited August 31, 2022 by Aracknight

[Linea]

4 hours ago, Doomguide2005 said:

either way you're at 175 and eating a ton of incoming.

The only thing overcapping does is compensate for debuffs some of the incoming debuffs.  175 is the HARD cap.

Barriers are only at full strength for a few seconds, then drop in half exponentially over time.   Combat Monitor only updates every 10 seconds, your barrier could have expired 9 seconds ago and you just don't realize it.

 

2 hours ago, Sir Myshkin said:

Sigh. Alright. Challenge accepted.

2-Star is very soloable, should be 10-ish hours or less.   I've not re-soloed it since it was made easier by converting 5 GMs to mere AVs.

If you want a real challenge, solo a 3-star.  First two missions aren't bad, about an hour each.   The next ones will likely take you more than a day's worth of play each, which is why I say 3-star is not 'practically' solo-able.  (3-Star I did in test-mode so If I ran out of time, lost connection, or needed to otherwise logout, I could quickly pick up where I left off with out burning hours of investment.  I also used a constant supply of small yellows, and an additional 50 small inspirations in email per AV and up to 13 tries per AV.  13 tries at 15m each ~= 3 hours per AV kill.  I reported on Rommy #4 in the test discord one afternoon, I think that was 5 or 6 hours total)

 

Edited August 31, 2022 by Linea

[Doomguide2005]

Nice hadn't considered the 'lag' in combat attributes.  10 seconds is damn near a lifetime under those conditions.

[Linea]

Most people are under the impression that Barrier is godmode for 2 minutes ... it's not.  It's about 20 seconds, maybe 30, then negligible.   But rotate it with some barrier teammates and .... then it IS godmode.

[Linea]

4 hours ago, Doomguide2005 said:

at 175 and eating a ton of incoming.

The other side of this coin is, 'Don't Pull a Leroy Jenkins'.  No one said you have to Speed Run a 4-Star.   If you slow down and use a little strategy, you can keep the stacking tactics to 1 copy most of the time, with only the rare 2 stacks.  Then you can subtract 50 from all the above numbers, just by playing smart, then even the squishies can be defense capped vs even Rommy.

[Bill Z Bubba]

11 minutes ago, Linea said:

Most people are under the impression that Barrier is godmode for 2 minutes ... it's not.  It's about 20 seconds, maybe 30, then negligible.   But rotate it with some barrier teammates and .... then it IS godmode.

 

It's not negligible when you're built for 53.75% defense to MRA.

[Linea]

4 minutes ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

It's not negligible when you're built for 53.75% defense to MRA.

That would be an exception to the rule, where the last 5% cumulative is much more valuable than the first 5% in isolation, when applied to standard Incarnate Arcs, and would not be very helpful vs 4-Star Rommy and his 138.75 defense soft-cap. 

[Doomguide2005]

     You need about another +40% if you're normally sitting around the 50s yes?  And then if you're not pretty buffed DDR-wise you'll want Ageless as well.  Cimerorans in particular aren't kind to defense not backed by DDR.  That means less Barrier to cycle with longer stretches where you're looking at the soft end of things.

[Linea]

I would say +50 minimum over the standard soft-cap.  Most of the random runs I've joined have said "Use Barrier if your defense drops below 100".  That's probably good general advice for random teams.  It'll still get you killed if you over-pull, but if you want to keep instructions as simple as possible, that's probably the answer.

 

Assuming 4-star

Most groups have an EB backing them, or at least something like a 1/3.  It's not at all uncommon: Base 45 + ceiling(25,(10 *  floor(0,4 - 1)))) + ( Tactics Stacking 25 * 1)  = 95 Defense.

Several times per mission it will not be unusual to face 2 EBs or the equivalent: Base 45 + ceiling(25,(10 *  floor(0,4 - 1)))) + ( Tactics Stacking 25 * 2)  = 120 defense

Most of the AVs have a least a single version of tactics themselves, something in the range of: Base 64 + ceiling(25,(10 *  floor(0,4 - 1)))) + ( Tactics Stacking 25 * 1) = 139 Defense.

And it will not be unusual to see AVs with a double powered tactics and one EB nearby:  Base 64 + ceiling(25,(10 *  floor(0,4 - 1)))) + ( Tactics Stacking 25 * (2+1))  = 189 Defense.

 

[Sir Myshkin]

This is really just making me want to start a team of Illusion Controllers to walk the 4* Content with indestructible Phantoms...

 

 

[Thrax]

Well, I’ll see how close to 70 I can get. It’s db/sr that’s currently proc’d to hell and back. His accuracy is likely too low to hit on 3-4 star I’m betting. So, slotting some sets instead of procs should help both acc and def. 
 

Thanks for all the replies. 

[Thrax]

7 hours ago, Doomguide2005 said:

Nice hadn't considered the 'lag' in combat attributes.  10 seconds is damn near a lifetime under those conditions.

I’ll have to check but 10 seconds seems too long. Like if you monitor a stat and the little pop up shows that stat, that one take 10 seconds to update?  I doubt that is accurate though. I can pop elude and see it shoot right up, for example. 

[Doomguide2005]

12 minutes ago, Thrax said:

I’ll have to check but 10 seconds seems too long. Like if you monitor a stat and the little pop up shows that stat, that one take 10 seconds to update?  I doubt that is accurate though. I can pop elude and see it shoot right up, for example. 

     I'm no coder but that may simply be the difference between your values updating from stuff you do and values changing do to what the server (foes) are doing if it's tracked on your computer.  *shrug* how's that for a wild ass guess 🙄

[Doomguide2005]

2 hours ago, Sir Myshkin said:

This is really just making me want to start a team of Illusion Controllers to walk the 4* Content with indestructible Phantoms...

 

 

Like the way you're thinking.  Had the same thought about doing multiple Ill/Traps against some of @Linea's harder 801 content.  

[Sir Myshkin]

15 hours ago, Doomguide2005 said:

Like the way you're thinking.

I’ve been napkin matching numbers in my head since I went to bed last night about team comp and what it’s going to take to keep the Phantasm standing during overflow aggro. Right now I’m averaging a Force Fielder to be worth about 40% or a Cold about 28% Defense, same for Sonic v. Thermal although I think I’d scratch both those choices in favor of AoE +Res from Pain or Nature along with their more significant buff/debuff respectively.

 

So what I’m thinking right now:

• Illusion/FF
• Illusion/FF
• Illusion/Nature
• Illusion/Nature
• Illusion/Trick Arrow
• Illusion/Trick Arrow
• Illusion/Storm
• Illusion/Storm
• Illusion/Time*

I’m really on the fence about Time, I think there needs to be a bit more supplement in defense but I would much rather see another Storm in there. This puts things in just the right range to have just four players cycle Barrier on 30/s cycles to make up the capping gap.

[Doomguide2005]

@Sir Myshkin Are you assuming stacked Leadership (i.e. ~32% from Maneuvers)?

[Thrax]

2 hours ago, Sir Myshkin said:

I’ve been napkin matching numbers in my head since I went to bed last night about team comp and what it’s going to take to keep the Phantasm standing during overflow aggro. Right now I’m averaging a Force Fielder to be worth about 40% or a Cold about 28% Defense, same for Sonic v. Thermal although I think I’d scratch both those choices in favor of AoE +Res from Pain or Nature along with their more significant buff/debuff respectively.

 

So what I’m thinking right now:

• Illusion/FF
• Illusion/FF
• Illusion/Nature
• Illusion/Nature
• Illusion/Trick Arrow
• Illusion/Trick Arrow
• Illusion/Storm
• Illusion/Storm
• Illusion/Time*

I’m really on the fence about Time, I think there needs to be a bit more supplement in defense but I would much rather see another Storm in there. This puts things in just the right range to have just four players cycle Barrier on 30/s cycles to make up the capping gap.

mine is ill/storm and this sounds fun. If you get this going let me know and I’ll join. 

[Blackjoy]

I ran 4* ITF and it wasn't that bad.   We had one Tank, one Defender, two scappers (SM/SR and DM/SR), and some Controllers and a Dominator.

 

We probably had about four total party wipes by the time we had destroyed the computer.  Defender died a lot.  I definitely got one-shot at least twice, once by a minotaur.  I would say half the time I running without any added mitigation boosts, the other half of the the time, someone had fired off Barrier.   The Tank had a hard time not trying to herd.  But as Linea says, if you go slow, it feel like back on Live.   

 

One area we ran into some trouble is on the march up the hill.   We were pulling, but then we got stuck at a spawn point.  So by the time we'd clear a new spawn, another one would find us.

 

At one point we were fighting Romulus and Requiem.  Tank died.  I hit Elude and was able to survive Requiem, tank him.   We were using Barrier randomly.   I had to drop before we fought the big robot.  I think at that point we were going on about 2 hours if not 3.

Edited September 2, 2022 by Blackjoy

[Linea]

14 hours ago, Blackjoy said:

 I think at that point we were going on about 2 hours if not 3.

The average 4-star random team run is about 3 hours and 150 deaths.   That will improve with time, but for now you should always assume at least 3 hours.

[Sir Myshkin]

22 hours ago, Doomguide2005 said:

@Sir Myshkin Are you assuming stacked Leadership (i.e. ~32% from Maneuvers)?

I haven’t captured all the hard math like I intended to last night, but I was gracefully giving FF 40% each, 10% to Storm, 20% to Time, and 5% to the others (20% so yes accounting Maneuvers for this) for a grand total of 130% Defense while together. Barrier I was expecting 80% consistency (which is… again not quite right I know, napkin).

 

Each Illusion will also have Superior Invisibility with a trail of defense, likely thinking Weave as well, couple of procs will shake out another 16-18%. There will be meandering thoughts on this, because shared defense will be key so needing personal base defense won’t have to be committed necessarily.

 

I also looked at TA for unresistable components in Flash Arrow as another step around the added ToHit, and then there’s also -ToHit in NA as well, including -Dam to have four active sources of -ToHit and -Dam going. Actually five with Time.

 

Then every set sans FF will have -Res AoE meaning six active fields producing up to something like -180%.

 

Also targeted aspects of -Heal in Nature and TA being baked into AoEs too to help neuter things like Surgeons.