Dark Melee

[SomeGuy]

20 minutes ago, Blackjoy said:

Can you elaborate on the nature or specifics of the test?

 

I simulated the same amount of +DMG a full stack of Soul Drain would give for the duration of a pylon run.

 

*Honestly, probably more generous than actually keeping Soul Drain stacked cause that would interrupt attacking for a few seconds every 30ish seconds. I just chewed reds in the amount needed every...minute? So once at the start of the run and a second time later, With Soul Drain it would have been 3-4 activations.

 

Edited October 14, 2022 by SomeGuy

[Blackjoy]

I'm not sure what this is proving?  To answer this question, you'd need to use the same secondary for all the other Pylon tests and use the exact same damage buffs and recharge boosts.  Then add another 150% damage boost for perma-Soul Drain.  Your spread sheet doesn't actually prove what you claim.  It just shows that set combos compared to other set combos, with no clue as to what those builds were running at the time.

 

Back of the envelope calculations...SD adds 150% damage at max...for 30 seconds.  It's got 120 recharge, so let's call that perma for the sake of argument.  You're essentially arguing that DM, with a perma 150% damage boost, doesn't outperform other sets at single target damage?  No way that is true.  

 

Let's add in Build Up/Focus Chi...which is 100% damage boost for 10s with 90 second recharge.   If we reduce that by a factor of 4 (what you'd need for perma-SD), we get 10 seconds on and 10 seconds off (actually 12.5, but let's be generous).   So let's compare all the other sets with a perma 50% damage boost to a perma 150% damage boost.   You're asserting that DM still falls short on ST damage with a perma 100% damage boost?  Not buying it.

 

I could imagine that on pure ST damage, a set like Energy Melee or War Mace might still be just as good, but that also seems unlikely.   If that's happening, it's due to massive recharge allowing those sets to use a damage chain that is non-standard. e.g. cycling ET and TF.  The Pylon test results doesn't answer that question one way or another.   I'm also guessing the Pylon is resistant to all a damage types equally, so this negates DM's negative energy damage type advantage has over sets that are all lethal or smashing.

 

While I acknowledge that I could still be proven wrong, I stand by what I said.  Dark Melee with a perma-150% damage boost is going to out perform other sets (with maybe one or two exceptions) with the same secondary and same set bonuses.  You can look at the base damage for DM compared to other sets and it isn't 100% lower.   And if I'm wrong, then I'll take another stand that on a combo of max AoE+ST, DM wins hands down with a 100% damage boost compared to the others set (admittedly, i do not know what the average DMG boost is for sets that don't use a Build Up type of power).  Shadow Mal + Touch of Fear + Dark Consumption all with 150% damage boost has got to be pretty massive.

 

 

Edited October 14, 2022 by Blackjoy

[SomeGuy]

1 hour ago, Blackjoy said:

I'm not sure what this is proving?  To answer this question, you'd need to use the same secondary for all the other Pylon tests and use the exact same damage buffs and recharge boosts. Then add another 150% damage boost for perma-Soul Drain.

 

 

 

 

That's...what I did.

 

I'll show most of it for better context. If you look, DM/BIO is pretty far down the list when compared to other x/bio. It only gets up there with them once max SD is applied. I don't do temps or anything for this stuff for myself, and these are averages of 5+ runs (a lot of times way more than 10). It's all build.

 

 

The BA time is currently what I was doing earlier on Brainstorm. The FM time is what is currently Live. I'm in the process of getting the average for that set on Brainstorm, but I can say this...it is flying in to ST top tier range if it doesn't get altered.

 

*FM/BIO/MU     1:08    

 

Oh boy.

Edited October 14, 2022 by SomeGuy

[Blackjoy]

So your FM/BIO/MU is the exact same build and set bonuses used for your DM/BIO/MU build?  

 

Your sheet shows a Degen/ZAPP for DM vs a Degen/Zapp/Proc for DB.   Some of these show /Moonbeam

 

How do you optimize the recharge for all the primaries if they are the same builds?   

 

What is "Degen"?

 

Looking at your sheet, you posted 

 

Scrapper	DM/BIO/MU	89	558.7	SomeGuy	10x Soul Drain, Average
Scrapper	DM/BIO/MU	116	458.4	SomeGuy	Average, Hybrid off, 1x Soul Drain

 

The 10x Soul Drain DPS should be a 100% damage boost as compared to 1x Soul Drain.  Why does 558 not look like a 100% boost as compared with 458?  Is Soul Drain using some weird formula for modifying damage.  Is the Damage boost just an add on of the base damage?

 

If Smite does 82 points at lvl 50, with full IOs, that's about another 80 pints.  Smite with 1x SD should be appox 200 points.  So the max SD takes us from 160 to approx 280 .  

 

So using those ratios, your 458 DPS should have risen to 641.  That would move it significantly up the list.   If those numbers are wrong, then it suggests a significant portion of that DPS is already damage boosted beyond IO's .

 

 

Edited October 14, 2022 by Blackjoy

[Wavicle]

Not sure why no one has mentioned Super Reflexes, excellent with DM.

[Blackjoy]

3 minutes ago, Wavicle said:

Not sure why no one has mentioned Super Reflexes, excellent with DM.

I did mention SR.

[archgemini24]

On 10/12/2022 at 12:56 PM, Parabola said:

Jump in -> soul drain -> shield charge -> touch of fear -> shadow maul -> touch of fear -> laugh maniacally. You want to be surrounded by enemies to saturate against all odds before firing shield charge. The single target chain is smite -> siphon life -> smite -> midnight grasp. Urrm, that's about it really ... Enjoy!

 

I actually like running the AoE part after Soul Drain in reverse: ToF -> Shadow Maul -> ToF -> Shield Charge. Gives time for AAO to saturate and lets all the smaller AoEs do as much damage to the spawn as possible before Shield Charge cleans them up. I acknowledge that more of the SC damage is wasted on Minions and Lieutenants this way, but you get more damage out of the other attacks on bosses since the initial salvo has not immediately deleted all the AAO fodder. That said, if you need some of the trouble mobs dropped as fast as possible, Charging first is not a bad idea.

[SomeGuy]

On 10/14/2022 at 1:48 AM, Blackjoy said:

What is "Degen"?

 

 

This says wayyyyyyy more than you realize.

 

Moonbeam and Zapp are exactly the same animation/arcana time and damage. Open up mid's or go to CoD and see for yourself.

 

Look, if you don't agree with the way I collect data then go do them yourself. There is nothing stopping you making whatever combination you want on brainstorm. Don't sit here and tell me I'm wrong because your OPINION doesn't line up with my data. Show me I'm wrong. Also, quote or tag me so I actually know you referenced something of mine. And considering I have VERY little patience to debate with someone trying to tell me I'm wrong via their OPINION with no collected facts then I suggest you move it to DMs.

[Blackjoy]

23 hours ago, SomeGuy said:

 

 

Stuff

ROFL

 

You made clam based on popping reds and tried to assert that proves something.   Your math doesn't add up.  It has NOTHING to do with opinion.  Nice try and excellent Internet debate tactics.  

Edited October 29, 2022 by Blackjoy

[SomeGuy]

22 minutes ago, Blackjoy said:

ROFL

 

You made clam based on popping reds and tried to assert that proves something.   Your math doesn't add up.  It has NOTHING to do with opinion.  Nice try and excellent Internet debate tactics.  

 

I can explain it to you, but I can't understand it for you. And I'll reiterate. You don't agree with my testing method? Nothing stopping you from doing it yourself. Your "feel" that a maximally saturated Soul Drain has never been proven to be the bees-knees when it comes to DPS.

 

For anyone reading this, the % of damage boost is what matters.

 

I've definitely had good results pairing DM with Rad on a Brute. I currently really enjoy my DM/BIO/SOUL. I don't like how squish bio is, but the other offensive powerhouse option would be FA to help with the AOE, but there isn't a taunt aura for scrapper FA. Stone Armor is another REALLY good option for boosting AOE and overall offensive output AND being pretty tough, but it wouldn't have a taunt aura either.

[Blackjoy]

52 minutes ago, SomeGuy said:

 

I can explain it to you, but I can't understand it for you. And I'll reiterate. You don't agree with my testing method? Nothing stopping you from doing it yourself. Your "feel" that a maximally saturated Soul Drain has never been proven to be the bees-knees when it comes to DPS.

 

 

Ttere's nothing to "understand."  Either  your numbers add up or they don't.   You can't "test" perma-SD at max damage for practical reasons, but you can do the math to see what the upper bound is.  It's 150% perma-damage boost....with about 2-3 seconds of down time for casting.  My back of the envelope computations say that Any Build-Up based primary is geting an approximate perma 50% damage boost where you'd have enough recharge for perma-SD.   That means DM, with perma-SD, would be averaging a 100% damage boost over any other set (with exceptions for things like Kinetic Melee or other primary sets that have weird boosts that I haven't looked at).   You can see how he developers might feel DM has to be ess than the other sets by some average for fear it would exceed them if SD were running at max frequently.  So it's not surprising if that DM might be designed to have a lower DPS than other sets to account for SD.

 

However, in practice, we can see that Set bonuses and Incarnates are a big part of the damage boost.   So if you have a higher base damage, then this can overcome the benefit of perma-SD.   If we have DM with a 10 dps attack and we have EM with a 15 dps attack.  Perma-SD puts DM at 25 damage where as Build Up puts EM at 22.5 damage.  But if both of them are getting another 50% from other sources, then DM only goes to 30, while EM also goes to 30.    If we keep adding additional damage boosts, EM pulls ahead.  

 

So we can see that if the devs made DM lower in DPS in accounting for SD, they overlooked the fact that all these external damage buffs are benefiting sets with higher base values and overcoming the advantage of SD.   So that's why you might see a 150% damage boost not make much difference.   If you try that same test with nothing slotted,  SD is going to seem WAAAAAY better at max targets.  Unfortunately nobody plays with nothing slotted, so DM's intentional under tuning was a mistake, if that's what they did.

 

 

Edited October 29, 2022 by Blackjoy

[C U R S E]

I love DM/Ninjitsu and mine is insanely a proc monster. Ninjitsu is so nice and it is layered with my build. The ST is insane damage give it a try.

[Lazarillo]

On 10/11/2022 at 10:07 PM, SomeGuy said:

Dark pairs with everything. Except Regen.

The first character I ever reached 50 with, way back in 2006, was a DM/Regen Scrapper.

I feel attacked.

[BrandX]

On 10/13/2022 at 11:01 PM, SomeGuy said:

 

 

That's...what I did.

 

I'll show most of it for better context. If you look, DM/BIO is pretty far down the list when compared to other x/bio. It only gets up there with them once max SD is applied. I don't do temps or anything for this stuff for myself, and these are averages of 5+ runs (a lot of times way more than 10). It's all build.

 

 

The BA time is currently what I was doing earlier on Brainstorm. The FM time is what is currently Live. I'm in the process of getting the average for that set on Brainstorm, but I can say this...it is flying in to ST top tier range if it doesn't get altered.

 

*FM/BIO/MU     1:08    

 

Oh boy.

 

I'm sad that Axe is beating KM like that.  I'm going to guess it's due to the lower animation times Axe just got.  Proof that Concentrated Strike needs animation time lowered to at least Total Focus time and Focused Burst needs it's animation time lowered and turned into a Snipe power (it can negate you taking an epic snipe).

[Brutal Justice]

4 hours ago, BrandX said:

 

I'm sad that Axe is beating KM like that.  I'm going to guess it's due to the lower animation times Axe just got.  Proof that Concentrated Strike needs animation time lowered to at least Total Focus time and Focused Burst needs it's animation time lowered and turned into a Snipe power (it can negate you taking an epic snipe).

If there was ever a power that should have the axe cyclone vacuum it’s burst from kin melee.  Only if it draws them in during the animation though, and not after the strike.  

[BrandX]

2 hours ago, Brutal Justice said:

If there was ever a power that should have the axe cyclone vacuum it’s burst from kin melee.  Only if it draws them in during the animation though, and not after the strike.  

 

Now that we see such a power in action, I wouldn't be surprised if they put it in another set.

[StriderIV]

4 hours ago, BrandX said:

 

Now that we see such a power in action, I wouldn't be surprised if they put it in another set.

 

6 hours ago, Brutal Justice said:

If there was ever a power that should have the axe cyclone vacuum it’s burst from kin melee.  Only if it draws them in during the animation though, and not after the strike.  

*Crosses fingers they do all of the above for KM*

[serxiom]

On 10/30/2022 at 1:48 PM, C U R S E said:

I love DM/Ninjitsu and mine is insanely a proc monster. Ninjitsu is so nice and it is layered with my build. The ST is insane damage give it a try.

Im interested in this combo... would you mind to post your build? Thanks!

[Esau]

On 10/12/2022 at 1:09 PM, SomeGuy said:

 

It is and it isn't. Regen is bad. Reason why I said DM pairs bad with regen is because regen is bad. Nothing should be paired with regen.

Respectfully, pretty strongly disagree. But one can't build Regen for constant resist, or for defense, build for regen and end recovery. Build with enough resist to get through alpha, and with burst resist for tougher fights. I did that with a water/regen sentinel. When I built for resist or def, QUITE unimpressive, build for regeneration and end recovery, and it's finish the TF fight while the rest of the team lays there dead...max regen out, resist  and def buffs to weather tough fights.  But yeah, regen sucks if you build it like it's a resist or a def set, sure.

[SomeGuy]

30 minutes ago, Esau said:

Respectfully, pretty strongly disagree. But one can't build Regen for constant resist, or for defense, build for regen and end recovery. Build with enough resist to get through alpha, and with burst resist for tougher fights. I did that with a water/regen sentinel. When I built for resist or def, QUITE unimpressive, build for regeneration and end recovery, and it's finish the TF fight while the rest of the team lays there dead...max regen out, resist  and def buffs to weather tough fights.  But yeah, regen sucks if you build it like it's a resist or a def set, sure.

 

Respectfully...lol I know what that means.

 

I'm not sure why you used the Sentinel AT for your example, since the OP asked for opinions on what to pair the scrapper version of DM with, but OK.