Toggle for Incarnate Powers

[BitCook]

I find that I vastly enjoy the game from 1-45 far more than I enjoy 45+, despite there being some great arcs and signature missions in that range.  The big reason is that with incarnates too many people have easy access to fully capped defenses and crashless nukes.  Control, support, and tanking sets really loose their role when everyone has enough mitigation to wade through things.  Stuff dies before you can do anything about it, or need too.

There's nothing wrong with wanting to play with incarnates and they have been in the game for a long time.

The hard mode content was a nice way of addressing this.  Allow people to choose how they want to experience the game and don't take away the toys from the people who love running around with all the stuff.

Can you give us a toggle on teams that the leader can specify whether incarnates can be used or not?

It could be a subset of the hard mode content and allow players to choose if they want to limit those (gamebreaking?) powers or not.  Give some token bonus for teams that run content that way and perhaps even options like the one through four star options.

Difficulty setting: (45+ content and teams)
One star - Removal of Judgement & Destiny - 1.1x inf or xp.
Two star - Removal of All but Alpha, max 1 level shift - 1.3x inf or xp.

Three star - Alpha slot only, no level shifts - give 1 merit bonus per mission.  1.3x inf or 1.3x xp.

Four star - Removal of all Incarnate powers/bonuses -  give 2 merits bonus per mission.  1.5x inf or 1.5x xp.

Since this would be an optional setting like hard mode content, it would allow the playerbase the choice to control how they want to experience their content.  For those of us that like the AT roles a little more clear, we can choose to play the game harder (and likely slower) but get small rewards for doing so.  No one has to join a team like that and no one is nerfed from their WTFPWNZER mode characters.

Edited November 4, 2022 by BitCook

[biostem]

Why can't you just unslot any abilities you don't want to use, and play with like-minded people?

[BitCook]

I can.  But right now, if I want to team, it's very hard to find the like minded people when asking in LFG.

That would be like asking why HC put in hard mode when you could just unslot all your IOs and make it very hard?  Because it was a way for them to increase difficulty without impacting everyone.  This is a similar concept.

It's just another option, and one that a fair number of people would like.  It doesn't impact people who love their Incarnate power and I'm sure plenty of people will choose to play that way.  But this is just another hard mode that undoes some of the problems for certain types of ATs that get trivialized by incarnates.  Give a small reward for doing content harder, just like the Hard mode they included already, and it just gives another mode for people to play.

 

Edit: So to directly answer the question, it's just a matter of convenience.  Like Hard mode is for people that want extreme challenge.

Edited November 4, 2022 by BitCook

[biostem]

3 minutes ago, BitCook said:

it's very hard to find the like minded people when asking in LFG

Then maybe there's more to your suggestion that should be examined...

 

3 minutes ago, BitCook said:

That would be like asking why HC put in hard mode when you could just unslot all your IOs and make it very hard?

Except no new tech is needed to unslot your incarnate powers for free.

 

3 minutes ago, BitCook said:

It's just another option, and one that a fair number of people would like.

This contradicts your first statement.  The option to play content w/ incarnates unslotted is free and already there.  Maybe people don't want to give up the added power/abilities they grant...

Edited November 4, 2022 by biostem

[Greycat]

12 minutes ago, biostem said:

Except no new tech is needed to unslot your incarnate powers for free.

 

It wouldn't be "new tech" to implement this OPTIONAL SETTING.  Did you forget about this?

 

 

 

We already have OPTIONAL SETTINGS to run without travel powers, to have enhancements have no effect ("Oh, but you can just unslot them," right?)  and to have inspirations unavailable ("Oh, but you can just put them all in the auction house or not use them," right?)  These OPTIONAL SETTINGS can already be chosen. This would just be an additonal OPTIONAL SETTING for people who want to use this OPTIONAL SETTING, just like they can use any of the other OPTIONAL SETTINGS.

 

15 minutes ago, biostem said:

This contradicts your first statement.  The option to play content w/ incarnates unslotted is free and already there.  Maybe people don't want to give up the added power/abilities they grant...

 

And maybe people don't want to not use inspirations, or travel powers, but the OPTIONAL SETTING to do so already exists.

 

And nothing about what he says contradicts his first statement.

 

It would be an additional checkbox at best for this OPTIONAL SETTING. If you don't want to use this OPTIONAL SETTING? You can OPT not to use it. That would be why it's called optional, versus "Remove incarnate powers from the game completely right now!"

[biostem]

Just now, Greycat said:

It wouldn't be "new tech" to implement this OPTIONAL SETTING.  Did you forget about this?

The option for "No Incarnates" is not already there, so it would, in fact, be something new they'd have to implement.  Unslotting your incarnates, which is free, (as is re-slotting them), requires nothing new be added.

[Ruin Mage]

Using the no temp/no travel power as a basis would still require some work I imagine.

But the main hold up, or so my guess-work tells me, is finding a way to make that setting appear outside of TFs. That window only appears for TFs/Trials.

[Greycat]

7 minutes ago, biostem said:

The option for "No Incarnates" is not already there, so it would, in fact, be something new they'd have to implement.  Unslotting your incarnates, which is free, (as is re-slotting them), requires nothing new be added.

 

Wow, you're really reaching to try not to look silly with this argument, aren't you. We can already turn other things off. This would be just one more item on the list. 

 

Also, you did not say "something new to implement." This is another check on an existing list. You said "new tech," like it would require developing an entirely new system.  See below, emphasis mine:

 

40 minutes ago, biostem said:

Except no new tech is needed to unslot your incarnate powers for free.

 

No new tech was needed to not use your inspirations. No new tech was needed to play without enhancements- you could, after all, just create a new build (existing for ages by the time that difficulty system was put in) and just not have slots in it... yet it was implemented, and that back on live. And we know powers can be disabled. It happens when we exemp down. It happens when we go into PVP zones (on top of just altogether changing attributes of powers.) It happens when we turn on some temp powers. There is absolutely *zero* "new tech" here.

 

Why don't you just say "I don't like it" and leave it at that?

[Yaliw]

 

I'm with Grey Cat minus the emotional tirade. There should definitely be a 'no incarnate' setting. The excuse of 'it would be work' is not an argument. It's a way to shut down an idea you don't like by pretending nobody on the dev team wants to do work to make the game better.

 

Don't speak for the devs. They can speak for themselves.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Ruin Mage]

It'd be better saved for when they can figure out how to make settings for teams apply outside of TFs/Trials, but thats IMO.

[MHertz]

I’m pretty agnostic on this idea. I’m in favor of the idea that the late game is too easy and needs more of a role for support archetypes. Things die so quickly that the challenge is greatly lessened and the usual powers and tactics aren’t needed. However, I know that the devs are tackling the long-term balance issues to correct for these things, and adding another solution might not be appropriate.

 

I’m curious: in your vision, how does this affect rewards for 50s who have (or would have had) a level shift?

[BitCook]

I would want no change into normal gameplay.  Just leave it as is.  Lots of people like it.

However, to sort of encourage people who want to play with more challenge, or a closer vision to the original ATs, then giving them a small bonus would be appropriate since they would likely be slower at content than level shifted incarnates.  In my OP, I suggested some bonus inf and perhaps even merits for giving up all incarnates.  

The idea is not to mess with the game that certainly plenty of people like, but give people like me that want a place for controllers, tankers, etc in 45+ content to have options to play that way and the ability to easily recruit people to play with that setting.

Basically, the idea is:  If content right now gives X inf a minute, then playtest to see how much slower teams are without incarnates and give them a bonus to make up the gap back to X inf a minute, or a little less.

Edited November 5, 2022 by BitCook

[Uun]

This has existed for Ouro content and TFs since Page 3:

• Options for 'No Incarnate Powers' and 'Only Alpha Slot' were added to the powers options for any arc in the SL9 (Level 45-50) categories. Completing a Flashback arc using these two new options rewards two new Ouroboros category badges.
• Selecting the "Master of" challenge for a given TF will set the team size to 8, maximum defeats to 0, disable temporary powers, and disable Incarnate powers. When successfully completed, the challenge will award the "Master of" badge and a Rare Incarnate Component.

[BitCook]

It would be nice to see on normal content as well.  Also, I may not want content set to 8 heroes.  Giving options on the difficulty can only be good.  People can completely ignore it if they don't want it.

[Rudra]

It's a Master run. The TFs were designed with full teams in mind. So a Master run would default to its standard 8-player team setting. Master runs aren't supposed to be soloable, though I think there are characters that can solo some of them.

[Akisan]

5 hours ago, Uun said:

Options for 'No Incarnate Powers' and 'Only Alpha Slot' were added to the powers options for any arc in the SL9 (Level 45-50) categories. Completing a Flashback arc using these two new options rewards two new Ouroboros category badges.

 

Last I checked - you can't add people to the team once an Ouroboros arc is started.  It's a mini-TF, complete with reward merits for everyone that ran it.  This would be best as a notoriety setting (like AV downscaling), so people can join/leave partway through an arc, or even so this could be used for non-arcs like Tips or Radios.

 

Unlike a lot of the existing options, incentives like the OP's are almost needed to get players to step away from the incarnate system (even if only briefly) - unslotting incarnate powers very definitely affects how quickly a team can clear a map.  Challenge is nice and all, but it's not so good when part of said challenge ends up being "oh yeah, and you get less xp/inf because you made stuff harder". 

 

[BitCook]

Consider hard mode, there is a substantial benefit for doing so.  Why?  Because it will take you longer and the Devs (rightly in my opinion) are trying to let you choose how to play but still attempting to balance the rewards given in inf/hour or merits/hour.  Thus, part of my idea is in return for doing the content slower (no mass nukes, etc) you get a bump to the rewards to make up for it.

So why ask for it?

There are a fair number of us that feel that incarnates blur the lines between ATs.  When everyone has access to capped resists and large AOE nukes, it make a lot of character concepts far less valuable or needed.  This is way to give them back some prominence without having to make the game harder for everyone else.  

[BlackSpectre]

23 hours ago, BitCook said:

There are a fair number of us that feel that incarnates blur the lines between ATs.  When everyone has access to capped resists and large AOE nukes, it make a lot of character concepts far less valuable or needed.  This is way to give them back some prominence without having to make the game harder for everyone else.  

First, I like the idea of giving players options to make the game harder. I even like the idea of making the game harder for everyone! However...

 

I'm not sure that incarnate powers blur the lines very much. Incarnate powers have 10 min and 15 min recharge times, that can't be shortened by recharge buffs, and don't come into play that often. Further, the defensive powers diminish over time fairly quickly. So characters who have massive AoEs are still king because they can activate their AoEs many times in the time it takes to activate an incarnate power once.

 

Where players are getting high resists and def Is from enhancement set bonuses... not incarnate powers. That said, making the game harder = good! 

[Zect]

Excellent suggestion!

 

There should also be bonus rewards if you have incarnate powers but run without them, to compensate for the slower killtime, so that players are not economically disadvantaged simply because they choose to play differently.

Edited November 6, 2022 by Zect

[Akisan]

4 hours ago, BlackSpectre said:

I'm not sure that incarnate powers blur the lines very much. Incarnate powers have 10 min and 15 min recharge times, that can't be shortened by recharge buffs, and don't come into play that often. Further, the defensive powers diminish over time fairly quickly. So characters who have massive AoEs are still king because they can activate their AoEs many times in the time it takes to activate an incarnate power once.

 

Where players are getting high resists and def Is from enhancement set bonuses... not incarnate powers. That said, making the game harder = good!

 

Agreed, more (and harder) options is good, but... while it is true that a lot of our power is in the IO system (especially defenses and Recharge), Incarnates can very easily blur some of the lines, especially regarding damage:

• A well-coordinated team can rotate their judgements (90s recharge), leaving few, if any, spawns to fight normally.  This power alone can turn a Radio group into a frenzied rush to even get attacks off before a spawn dies.
• Ageless Destiny can all but remove any consideration of endurance conservation on a build.  Why have a few cheap, lighter attacks when you can simply crank out your heavy hitters, one after another? (provided enough recharge, that is)
• Hybrid's a choice of a large damage increase, large survivability increase (complete w/Taunt if desired), additional CC on attack, or moderate all-around buff.  It may only have a 50% uptime, but it still lets characters do some very off-AT things.

That said, I don't think 1.1x is a high enough xp/inf multiplier for removing Judgement.  It's very powerful, especially in easier content like Radio missions. I'd even be okay with its' recharge being tripled, as it's more than slightly overtuned right now (but that's a rant for another thread).  The other powers (especially Alpha) can also greatly increase a build's power, so I don't think even 1.5x is enough to counterbalance the complete removal of Incarnate powers.