Coup de grace vs held/knocked down underlings, minions, and LTs

[biostem]

My suggestion is that, if you hold or knock down a lower-tier enemy, you should be able to run up to them and deliver a decisive killing blow, immediately defeating them.  Further, this should prevent any ability for them to self-rez.  The key would be that the timing when this could happen would have to be very carefully thought out.  I think it would add an interesting element to the game, especially when fighting some of those particularly annoying enemies, like some Freakshow, or perhaps even Carnival Illusionists.  Your thoughts?  Thanks for reading!

[Psyonico]

So controllers and Dominators get an "I win" button?

 

I don't mean to sound snarky, but it seems a bit much.

[biostem]

5 minutes ago, Psyonico said:

So controllers and Dominators get an "I win" button?

 

I don't mean to sound snarky, but it seems a bit much.

They are neither the only ones with holds, nor are they the only ones with knockdowns.  It'd also require holding or knocking the enemy, then running up to them to deliver the killing blow, thereby potentially placing you in greater danger...

[Rudra]

And what power would be their coup de grace? This seems OP to me, even with the 'must run up to the target potentially putting the character in greater danger' bit. First because the Controller/Dominator could simply AoE hold their enemies and then walk up to coup de grace them each in turn. No real threat to them there. Second, because it makes it way easy to kill enemies. Especially if they can't be rezzed, which takes away one of the main problems of the Freakshow.

Edited December 7, 2022 by Rudra
Edited to add second thought I forgot to input before posting.

[biostem]

2 minutes ago, Rudra said:

And what power would be their coup de grace? This seems OP to me, even with the 'must run up to the target potentially putting the character in greater danger' bit. First because the Controller/Dominator could simply AoE hold their enemies and then walk up to coup de grace them each in turn. No real threat to them there. Second, because it makes it way easy to kill enemies. Especially if they can't be rezzed, which takes away one of the main problems of the Freakshow.

It wouldn't be a power, per se - it would be an interaction, with a little timer bar - sort of like how you interact with a quest objective.  It would also require precise timing and each coup de grace would take time, so while it may be safe for a controller or dominator using an AoE hold, it probably wouldn't be as time-efficient as just spamming damaging AoE powers.

[Wavicle]

My guess is Containment is as good as this sort of thing is ever going to get.

[Greycat]

Do the enemies get this sort of option as well?

 

And "knocked down," especially, seems *seriously* overpowered, espeically with things like bonfire+KB-KD IO, Ice Patch and the like.  Or multiple damage auras with "Chance for KD" in them. Or even "New meta = everyone take Air Superiority."

 

Dunno. This sounds like a mix of gimmicky and overpowered.

[Rudra]

If players get it, then yes, mobs should too. Except that would make the game mandatory "Iron Man Mode". You get knocked down or held, you've permanently lost your character (cannot be rezzed).

[biostem]

5 minutes ago, Greycat said:

Do the enemies get this sort of option as well?

 

And "knocked down," especially, seems *seriously* overpowered, espeically with things like bonfire+KB-KD IO, Ice Patch and the like.  Or multiple damage auras with "Chance for KD" in them. Or even "New meta = everyone take Air Superiority."

 

Dunno. This sounds like a mix of gimmicky and overpowered.

You'd have to run up to an enemy, while they are on their butt, then initiate the interaction.  IF and when they stand back up, you lose that ability.  So, sure, go ahead and try to do it en masse, but I think you'll find that, while it delivers an instant kill, it's not an "I win" button.

 

 

[biostem]

5 minutes ago, Rudra said:

If players get it, then yes, mobs should too. Except that would make the game mandatory "Iron Man Mode". You get knocked down or held, you've permanently lost your character (cannot be rezzed).

Players can do plenty of things that NPCs can't, and NPCs can do plenty of things that PCs can't.  Unless using specific self-rez powers, players can be insta-killed after using a rez, unlike many NPCs that can do something similar...

Edited December 7, 2022 by biostem

[Rudra]

Would it work differently between PvE and PvP?

[biostem]

1 minute ago, Rudra said:

Would it work differently between PvE and PvP?

That, like how many powers already work between PvE and PvP, would have to be evaluated.

[Spaghetti Betty]

While an "opportunity strike" mechanic sounds cool, part of me feels the validity of it being attached to mez would be widely unbalanced in both ways depending on the situation. All controllers get an AoE hold plus some other form of aoe control. Would this mean a team could be carried by a controller? How useful would this be against Cims? 2 controllers can hold an AV. How strong is this flourish against a held AV?

 

17 minutes ago, Greycat said:

And "knocked down," especially, seems *seriously* overpowered, espeically with things like bonfire+KB-KD IO, Ice Patch and the like.  Or multiple damage auras with "Chance for KD" in them. Or even "New meta = everyone take Air Superiority."

Maybe a standard KD wouldn't complicate things too much, but ragdoll physics on the other hand...

 

I think "finishing blow" is just a strong term to use. In Dark Souls, executing a riposte after a successful parry certainly does critical damage, but heartier foes will get back up and continue whooping your ass.

 

It's not a bad idea, but lockdown and damage are already heavily skewed in the player's favor.

[biostem]

3 minutes ago, Spaghetti Betty said:

Would this mean a team could be carried by a controller? How useful would this be against Cims? 2 controllers can hold an AV. How strong is this flourish against a held AV?

Answered in my OP - "lower tier enemies".

 

4 minutes ago, Spaghetti Betty said:

Maybe a standard KD wouldn't complicate things too much, but ragdoll physics on the other hand

Does the game differentiate between an enemy that is knocked down and one that is flailing around due to ragdoll/geometry issues?  If not, then it might have to have a set "window of opportunity" or something similar.

[Rudra]

Yeah, sorry, but I can't get behind this. There are just too many questions and possible exploits. Coups de grace work well in other games I've seen, but those games don't work the way CoX does, and many of them also have a chance to fail even in their own games. It works great for some single player games, but foes tend to be over the top tough in those games too. And it only works under specific circumstances in those games rather than in such an easily achieved situation as is proposed in the OP.

[Spaghetti Betty]

1 minute ago, biostem said:

Answered in my OP - "lower tier enemies".

My fault for skimming. Apologies.

2 minutes ago, biostem said:

Does the game differentiate between an enemy that is knocked down and one that is flailing around due to ragdoll/geometry issues?  If not, then it might have to have a set "window of opportunity" or something similar.

As far as I can tell, the enemy is considered "knocked" until they finish hitting the ground and can execute the getup animation. This varies wildly because of the ragdoll and you can even test it in game, since the knock being complete is indicated by a sound effect.

[biostem]

10 minutes ago, Rudra said:

There are just too many questions and possible exploits.

So do you have a problem with the existing ways of 1-shotting underlings, minions, and LTs, because that's all I'm talking about, here.  If a blaster hitting aim+BU then taking out en entire group with an AoE, then why would you have an issue with someone holding an LT, running up to them, then delivering a killing blow?

[Rudra]

Because for that Blaster to do that, the Blaster has to slot for damage as primary concern, then pop BU + Aim, then blast the target mob(s) into oblivion. The OP is hit target with a KD or a mez, then gank it. And apparently not even with a dedicated power to do so like a Stalker does.

 

Edit: And since it is an interaction, there isn't even a chance to miss. So it is also superior to the Stalker's AS and that Blaster's BU+Aim obliteration.

Edited December 8, 2022 by Rudra

[Wavicle]

1 hour ago, Spaghetti Betty said:

My fault for skimming. Apologies.

As far as I can tell, the enemy is considered "knocked" until they finish hitting the ground and can execute the getup animation. This varies wildly because of the ragdoll and you can even test it in game, since the knock being complete is indicated by a sound effect.

wow really? What sound effect? I never noticed that.

[Spaghetti Betty]

8 minutes ago, Wavicle said:

wow really? What sound effect? I never noticed that.

It'll play the same thud effect that happens during a regular KD. It's hard to notice since your average knock completes quickly, but if an NPC gets caught on some geometry, you can hear it when they properly plant on the ground. It's also very quiet for some reason.

Edited December 8, 2022 by Spaghetti Betty

[biostem]

56 minutes ago, Rudra said:

And since it is an interaction, there isn't even a chance to miss. So it is also superior to the Stalker's AS and that Blaster's BU+Aim obliteration.

Perhaps not, but there's a chance to be interrupted and said opportunity only exists during a very narrow window.

[biostem]

1 hour ago, Rudra said:

Because for that Blaster to do that, the Blaster has to slot for damage as primary concern, then pop BU + Aim, then blast the target mob(s) into oblivion

Not really.  You slot your single AoE for damage, which is pretty much the norm, and you're good to go.  Maybe fire off a 2nd one or others, but you don't need to undertake some unusual slotting strategy to pull this off.  I also explicitly never said that this would be a controller/dominator-only ability.  Many blasters can access more holds or knocks than some controllers.  The key, as I've said again and again, is that you'd have to go up to each target, in a very specific time window, to begin the interaction to deliver said killing blow.  Not just click click click like you do with Aim+BU+AoE.

[Akisan]

Not in favor of this plan - AoE mezzes can already be quite powerful when used correctly. (As a side note, Stalkers get a 20% Crit chance against Held and Slept players, so this is somewhat implemented for them)

 

3 hours ago, Rudra said:

And what power would be their coup de grace?

 

Brawl.  With a confirmation roll. At a penalty. (If it *had* to be implemented...)

 

4 minutes ago, biostem said:

1 hour ago, Rudra said:

And since it is an interaction, there isn't even a chance to miss. So it is also superior to the Stalker's AS and that Blaster's BU+Aim obliteration.

 

Perhaps not, but there's a chance to be interrupted and said opportunity only exists during a very narrow window.

 

Can't exactly call it a "narrow window" - My blaster can keep a pair of +4 bosses Held.  Permanently.  Being able to kill a Lt. every 4 to 5 seconds with just the hold + brawl would be a rather nice damage boost, especially since I'm Archery and so many enemies resist Lethal damage. (I hate Crey soooo much...)

[biostem]

1 minute ago, Akisan said:

Can't exactly call it a "narrow window" - My blaster can keep a pair of +4 bosses Held.  Permanently.  Being able to kill a Lt. every 4 to 5 seconds with just the hold + brawl would be a rather nice damage boost, especially since I'm Archery and so many enemies resist Lethal damage. (I hate Crey soooo much...)

So while you're running up to 1 enemy, clicking to begin the interaction, then have to wait for the bar to fill/drain, you can't do anything else, which includes refreshing the holds on the other targets, moving, clicking other powers, etc.

[Akisan]

2 minutes ago, biostem said:

So while you're running up to 1 enemy, clicking to begin the interaction, then have to wait for the bar to fill/drain, you can't do anything else, which includes refreshing the holds on the other targets, moving, clicking other powers, etc.

 

And how long would this interaction be?  What would the cooldown on it be?  My holds last for 30s, and have a 6-8s cooldown.  Ice Manipulation's hold is already melee, and my archery powers have a 130ft range, so I wouldn't lose *any* positioning doing this.  On top of that, with the exception of a few Lts (Crey tanks come to mind), it's almost always going to be faster for me to just use my regular attacks to defeat said Lts unless that interaction is only a second or so.