Add +Absorb to Elec Armor -> Power Sink

[Spaghetti Betty]

Yup. That's my suggestion to buff Electric Armor.

 

First, let me start off my explanation by talking about Energize. When it comes down to it, there's a lot that makes it this power less than desirable. It has a massive recharge, doesn't heal for much (even after being enhanced), and attempts to make up for it with a sad amount of +Regen. All of these points make it a very not good heal, but what if I told you there's a way to make it better without touching the power at all?

 

Enter Power Sink. A PBAoE End drain with a lighting fast recharge - ~16 seconds on a recharge-focused build. This click is screaming to become a mitigation click. My proposal is to add an unenhanceable amount of Absorb to it. Now, whether this gives a flat amount if at least 1 target is hit (like what was done to Consume) or if it should give a scaling amount per target hit (like Energy Absorption, etc.), I'm unsure. It should be whichever is more balanced.

 

What this does is plug the one hole I feel Elec Armor has - dealing with the alpha. Energize is not good for recovering after soaking an alpha. But, if you let the absorb layer deal with that, then Energize suddenly becomes an excellent backup option for dealing with heavy fire. A nice, flat heal with some extra +Regen that will pad your HP while mobs whittle down your absorb barrier.

 

It also reinforces the "Look, you are not going to have End problems. Just click this." mindset of the set. Everyone wins!

Edited December 9, 2022 by Spaghetti Betty
Had to fact check myself

[biostem]

Maybe do something like ice armor's energy absorption, only granting absorb per target hit, instead of defense...

[Spaghetti Betty]

32 minutes ago, biostem said:

Maybe do something like ice armor's energy absorption, only granting absorb per target hit, instead of defense...

I'm ok with this or a flat amount for 1 target hit, like Consume and its Max HP buff. Whichever option isn't too strong.

[Outrider_01]

8 hours ago, Spaghetti Betty said:

attempts to make up for it with a sad amount of +Regen

Yup, made an /electrical brute, 2 in fact.  Its next to useless, its like 30 regen but even with smash/lethal its not great and it takes just 1 CoT boss to cast a heal to render it moot.

[Gobbledigook]

I always felt it need a little something also. A little extra regen/max health or an absorb. Adding an absorb and a small +regen to number of targets hit with Power sink could be good.

 

The T9 needs to change also. Maybe lower the resists on it quite a bit or totally and add +recharge and maybe increasing the damage of the PBAoE aura by 2x/3x whilst it's active, just for something different. Or just add +elec only damage to it.

Edited December 10, 2022 by Gobbledegook

[Spaghetti Betty]

1 hour ago, Gobbledegook said:

The T9 needs to change also. Maybe lower the resists on it quite a bit or totally and add +recharge and maybe increasing the damage of the PBAoE aura by 2x/3x whilst it's active, just for something different. Or just add +elec only damage to it.

I like the idea of adding +recharge and a dmg proc to the T9. That feels fresh.

[Zect]

On 12/9/2022 at 2:50 PM, Spaghetti Betty said:

That's my suggestion to buff Electric Armor.

 

Before making such a suggestion, you need to lay out a comprehensive and objective analysis of why elec needs a buff in the first place. As it is, you've completely neglected to do so.

 

This suggestion fixates on one power in the set, while neglecting the bigger picture that elec is an extremely powerful and effective armor set, featuring:

• easily-hardcapped resistances - your solution to dealing with alphas. In fact, it has more base SL res than other res sets such as rad, dark or fire.
• offensive support with a damage aura and +rech buff
• immunity to draining
• high slow resistance
• unlimited endurance and high endrdx

When built and played competently, elec is just fine, and balanced against other resist sets such as rad and dark. This needless buff would imbalance it and merely contribute to power creep, one of the most severe issues facing the game today. If you want a res set with an absorb power, rad would be more up your alley. Terrible suggestion!

[Spaghetti Betty]

7 hours ago, Zect said:

 

Before making such a suggestion, you need to lay out a comprehensive and objective analysis of why elec needs a buff in the first place. As it is, you've completely neglected to do so.

 

This suggestion fixates on one power in the set, while neglecting the bigger picture that elec is an extremely powerful and effective armor set, featuring:

• easily-hardcapped resistances - your solution to dealing with alphas. In fact, it has more base SL res than other res sets such as rad, dark or fire.
• offensive support with a damage aura and +rech buff
• immunity to draining
• high slow resistance
• unlimited endurance and high endrdx

When built and played competently, elec is just fine, and balanced against other resist sets such as rad and dark. This needless buff would imbalance it and merely contribute to power creep, one of the most severe issues facing the game today. If you want a res set with an absorb power, rad would be more up your alley. Terrible suggestion!

Thanks for taking time to read my suggestion and give your feedback. You raise some valid points, and I opted not to include those simply because I didn't want my OP to be extremely long, but I can elaborate further.

 

While everything you listed are definitely things that Elec Armor possesses, they are not unique to the set. I can use the other sets you mentioned as examples. We can start with Rad Armor.

 

I'm not sure where exactly you are getting that Elec could be balanced against Rad Armor as Elec is almost a legacy set (coming with the release of CoV), whereas Rad Armor was a paid set that was never officially released on live. It enjoys benefits such as:

-Capped Res to all except Cold and Psi

-Hitting the Absorb cap with 1 click

-Slow Resistance (not as much as Elec, but still a good foundation to build on)

-A skirt that debuffs enemy DEF and Tohit

-A wide PBAoE debuff that can be proc'd into a mini nuke

-A heal that easily ties for top 3 in the game, which can also be proc'd into a nuke

-A useable T9

 

I'm not sure this is a fair comparison. I will +1 your suggestion for it being a top choice for those looking for a strong RES set. I would know, as I use my Rad/SS tank to invalidate most content up to and including 4* ITFs, which I main tank for my group of friends.

 

As for Dark Armor, I feel it has an edge over Elec Armor as well. The reasons being that:

-It can also hard cap most resists except NRG

-It has the best heal in the game

-Has numerous forms of soft control for mitigation

-Includes a damage skirt (as do quite a few armors)

-Can ignore alphas by being in a mob before they notice the Dark Armor user, thanks to its stealth cloak and the aforementioned soft controls

-Has the best self rez in the game (One could argue Phoenix Rising)

 

All I'm asking for is a modest amount of unenhanceable Absorb be added to a dynamic click. I'm not suggesting Elec Armor also be able to hit the Absorb cap with one click every 20 seconds. Would a number make it sound better? Assuming a 50 Tank, let's go with... 400. That is less than:

-Particle Shielding and Ablative Carapace by about 55%

-Defensive Adaptation/Ablative Carapace by about 70%.

-Preventive Medicine: Absorb Proc by roughly 5%.

 

 

And just based on personal experience, hardcapped RES is not even close to the end-all answer to soaking a huge alpha that you make it out to be. And a click heal that barely recovers less than 50% of your HP on a huge timer isn't necessarily a super answer either. Not when there are no other forms of damage mitigation present in the set.

Edited December 11, 2022 by Spaghetti Betty

[Gobbledigook]

Elec Armor isn't bad but it could do with a little tweak to improve it some and make it a little less boring. Having played them all i also find EA to be inferior slightly to the other resist sets. EA is not the most popular set for this reason...probably. The car drives ok but it is a little lacklustre it needs pimping out lol.

 

@Zect they buffed Invulnerability, did they even need to? lol.

 

I do not think @Spaghetti Betty suggestion is OTT.

[BrandX]

10% Chance for 385.6 Absorb put into Lightning Reflexes with an addition 10-20% +RCH/+Slow Resist *nod nod*

[Spaghetti Betty]

9 minutes ago, BrandX said:

10% Chance for 385.6 Absorb put into Lightning Reflexes with an addition 10-20% +RCH/+Slow Resist *nod nod*

Can I ask why you'd prefer the Absorb proc off of an auto? No hate, just curious.

[Wavicle]

Power Sink is already a mitigation ability. Enemies without end can't hurt you. Even if you can't keep them completely drained it seriously cuts down incoming attacks.

[Spaghetti Betty]

6 minutes ago, Wavicle said:

Power Sink is already a mitigation ability. Enemies without end can't hurt you. Even if you can't keep them completely drained it seriously cuts down incoming attacks.

Energy Absorption and Energy Drain both do the same thing, and offer added mitigation in the form of +DEF. If you slot them for End Mod the result is exactly the same as Power Sink.

Edited December 13, 2022 by Spaghetti Betty

[Wavicle]

1 minute ago, Spaghetti Betty said:

Energy Absorption and Energy Drain both do the same thing, and offer added mitigation in the form of +DEF. If you slot them for End Mod the result is exactly the same as Power Sink,

 

Irrelevant. Powers are not balanced against each other directly, sets are.

[Spaghetti Betty]

7 minutes ago, Wavicle said:

 

Irrelevant. Powers are not balanced against each other directly, sets are.

Sure, but when you have 4 versions of the same move out in the wild (Energy Absorption, Energy Drain, Power Sink, and now Consume with it's +Max HP) that all offer 3 helpful benefits except for 1 exception, can something not be added to that 1?

Edited December 13, 2022 by Spaghetti Betty
I really should proofread before posting

[Wavicle]

1 minute ago, Spaghetti Betty said:

Sure, but when you have 4 versions of the same move out in the wild (Energy Absorption, Energy Drain, Power Sink, and now Consume with it's +Max HP) that all offer 3 helpful benefits except for 1 exception, can someone not be added to that 1?

 

It CAN, but you would have to demonstrate that the set is unbalanced against the other sets without it.

[Spaghetti Betty]

1 minute ago, Wavicle said:

 

It CAN, but you would have to demonstrate that the set is unbalanced against the other sets without it.

I don't have the attention span for the rigorous testing you'd probably want demonstrated. I can only offer my personal gameplay experiences. If that isn't enough for you, then I apologize in advance.

 

Out of every Tank I've played, the Elec Armor ones seem to have the hardest time staying up in tense situations. Yes, they can cap RES fairly easily, but so can most of the RES-based sets, and most of those RES based sets offer hybrid mitigation in some form. Invuln has Invincibility and an amazing heal in Dull Pain, Dark has multiple soft controls, -tohit, protection against exotic mez, and a foundation of DEF (not much, but still built in), and I've already gone into detail about what makes Rad good (to emphasize, it just straight up does everything Elec Armor can do but better and has added goodies on top of it). Even Fire Armor, the weakest RES armor, has performed better on Tanks for me thanks to the sheer offense it brings and the fact that it has what I would consider to be a self heal that ties for top 2. A damage skirt and a small +rech buff an offensive armor does not make.

 

Sure, Elec Armor has great end management, but I would argue that endurance woes are only really a thing pre-50.

 

And Energize? Energize wouldn't even be a bad click if it wasn't the only thing Elec Armor could do about incoming damage if it's RES is failing it. Every other RES armor has something else that isn't just RES for mitigation, on top of a heal.

[Wavicle]

1 minute ago, Spaghetti Betty said:

I don't have the attention span for the rigorous testing you'd probably want demonstrated. I can only offer my personal gameplay experiences. If that isn't enough for you, then I apologize in advance.

 

Out of every Tank I've played, the Elec Armor ones seem to have the hardest time staying up in tense situations. Yes, they can cap RES fairly easily, but so can most of the RES-based sets, and most of those RES based sets offer hybrid mitigation in some form. Invuln has Invincibility and an amazing heal in Dull Pain, Dark has multiple soft controls, -tohit, protection against exotic mez, and a foundation of DEF (not much, but still built in), and I've already gone into detail about what makes Rad good (to emphasize, it just straight up does everything Elec Armor can do but better and has added goodies on top of it). Even Fire Armor, the weakest RES armor, has performed better on Tanks for me thanks to the sheer offense it brings and the fact that it has what I would consider to be a self heal that ties for top 2. A damage skirt and a small +rech buff an offensive armor does not make.

 

Sure, Elec Armor has great end management, but I would argue that endurance woes are only really a thing pre-50.

 

And Energize? Energize wouldn't even be a bad click if it wasn't the only thing Elec Armor could do about incoming damage if it's RES is failing it. Every other RES armor has something else that isn't just RES for mitigation, on top of a heal.

 

It's not about what *I* want. I'm saying in order for THE DEVS to take such a request seriously that's what you'd have to demonstrate.

[Spaghetti Betty]

4 minutes ago, Wavicle said:

 

It's not about what *I* want. I'm saying in order for THE DEVS to take such a request seriously that's what you'd have to demonstrate.

Well, that sure is a nothing burger of a reply.

[Wavicle]

1 minute ago, Spaghetti Betty said:

Well, that sure is a nothing burger of a reply.

 

It's a fact. What the hell do you want? Grow up.

[Zect]

On 12/11/2022 at 2:54 PM, Spaghetti Betty said:

I'm not sure where exactly you are getting that Elec could be balanced against Rad Armor as Elec is almost a legacy set (coming with the release of CoV), whereas Rad Armor was a paid set that was never officially released on live.

 

The implication here seems to be that legacy sets are weak, while newer and/or paid sets are strong, but this could hardly be further from the truth. Fire blast is a legacy set. Invuln is a legacy set. Radiation emission is a legacy set. Dark miasma is a legacy set. Super strength is a legacy set. Storm summoning is a legacy set. Fire control is a legacy set. Dark armor, which you yourself claim has an edge over elec, is a legacy set for scrappers - so I guess the argument that a set needs buffs because it is a legacy set only gets cited when it works in favor of your argument, and swept under the rug when it does not. (These are all literally Issue 0 powersets.) All of the above have been pretty consistently strong throughout the IO era of CoH, too. Legacy != weak. In fact, very often, legacy = strong. No modern powerset would be designed with things such as perma-doublestacked Rage.

 

Conversely, newer and/or paid sets are not necessarily good. Kinetic melee would be the big example; it underperforms by every metric that can be found and is quite possibly the only set of any category in the game that can justify asking for a buff. A somewhat older example is Dual Pistols (GR preorder exclusive set, later released for all players but added back to Paragon Market in i21). This set had low dps and torturously long animations for many issues. Repeated animation time buffs and finally the i24 PPM system rocketed it to becoming one of the strongest, especially on low damage scalar AT's.

 

On 12/11/2022 at 2:54 PM, Spaghetti Betty said:

All I'm asking for is a modest amount of unenhanceable Absorb be added to a dynamic click. I'm not suggesting Elec Armor also be able to hit the Absorb cap with one click every 20 seconds. Would a number make it sound better?

 

Yes, provided that number is 0. If elec receives defensive buffs (absorb or slow res), then its offense or other aspects of defense must be nerfed to maintain balance and avoid power creep. Any significant amount of absorb on a resist-hardcapped toon is massively powerful and would cause elec in its current state to become significantly overpowered.

 

Elec has an edge in offensive power and build flexibility with its combination of damage aura, rech, infinite endurance + drain immunity, and higher base resists; these advantages have to be paid for somehow with weaknesses in other areas. Rad's procced-out powers come at the cost of build flexibility. Dark's soft controls and heals provide more variable performance depending on enemy debuff resists, mez protection and how well you roll on your tohit checks. The three sets are very well-balanced vs each other, once you take a holistic view of their strengths and weaknesses.

 

Given your fixation on Energize's heal (which is not a quickly recharging click sustain a la integration or healing flames in any event, but rather a combo of endurance management power that also patches up chip damage), I think what we are seeing here is not a valid balance complaint, but merely a personal playstyle preference for armor sets with fast-recharging heals/absorbs.

 

P.S. I love how you think dark's stealth allows one to "ignore" alphas but hardcapped resistance somehow does not. One wonders what, precisely, absorbs an alpha on the planet you live on.

Edited December 13, 2022 by Zect

[Wavicle]

10 minutes ago, Zect said:

Legacy != weak. In fact, very often, legacy = strong.

 

QFT

 

Kinetics, one of the most powerful sets of any kind in the entire game, is virtually unchanged from launch.

[Spaghetti Betty]

9 minutes ago, Zect said:

The implication here seems to be that legacy sets are weak, while newer and/or paid sets are strong, but this could hardly be further from the truth. Fire blast is a legacy set. Invuln is a legacy set. Radiation emission is a legacy set. Dark miasma is a legacy set. Super strength is a legacy set. Storm summoning is a legacy set. Fire control is a legacy set. Dark armor, which you yourself claim has an edge over elec, is a legacy set for scrappers - so I guess the argument that a set needs buffs because it is a legacy set only gets cited when it works in favor of your argument, and swept under the rug when it does not. (These are all literally Issue 0 powersets.) All of the above have been pretty consistently strong throughout the IO era of CoH, too. Legacy != weak. In fact, very often, legacy = strong. No modern powerset would be designed with things such as perma-doublestacked Rage.

This wasn't necessarily my implication. I was more implying that something like Rad Armor doesn't feel like a fair comparison to me since it definitely got a few more goodies as players were going to be expected to fork over some extra cash.  I agree that a lot of legacy sets are very strong, and the ones that weren't eventually got a look at or were helped immensely by global changes.

 

19 minutes ago, Zect said:

Conversely, newer and/or paid sets are not necessarily good. Kinetic melee would be the big example; it underperforms by every metric that can be found and is quite possibly the only set of any category in the game that can justify asking for a buff. A somewhat older example is Dual Pistols (GR preorder exclusive set, later released for all players but added back to Paragon Market in i21). This set had low dps and torturously long animations for many issues. Repeated animation time buffs and finally the i24 PPM system rocketed it to becoming one of the strongest, especially on low damage scalar AT's.

This is more of an aside point but there is a huge difference in the sets that came out with GR and the ones that came out after CoH: Freedom.

 

15 minutes ago, Zect said:

Yes, provided that number is 0. If elec receives defensive buffs (absorb or slow res), then its offense or other aspects of defense must be nerfed to maintain balance and avoid power creep. Any significant amount of absorb on a resist-hardcapped toon is massively powerful and would cause elec in its current state to become significantly overpowered.

I mean you no ill will but I just simply have to disagree. I don't believe the amount of absorb I'm asking for is extremely significant. I'm asking for less than an IO proc. If you feel that is too much without a nerf of some kind to justify it then that's ok.

 

25 minutes ago, Zect said:

I think what we are seeing here is not a valid balance complaint, but merely a personal playstyle preference for armor sets with fast-recharging heals/absorbs.

This is valid! I made this suggestion because it is my opinion that something designed to take all hits to the face should have some form of dynamic mitigation. I am not a tester. I form my conclusions based on my (too many) years of experience playing the game. I could've simply asked for Energize to get a faster cooldown but I wanted to suggest something fresher than that. Adding a small amount of absorb sounds right to me.

 

Also, I should point out that I don't feel that Elec Armor is extremely weak or garbage. Just that it's one small change away from being an excellent armor set.

[BrandX]

4 hours ago, Spaghetti Betty said:

Can I ask why you'd prefer the Absorb proc off of an auto? No hate, just curious.

 

I thought of Fire Armor's recent +100% Regen (unenhanceable) in it's passive, so I put Preventive Medicine level Absorb as the suggestion and combined it with a bit of wishful wishing on mine 🙂

 

[Wavicle]

I still don't think it's necessary, but IF it was actually shown that the set underperforms defensively then maybe something sort of similar to the new Shocked mechanic with Electrical Blast:

Using Power Sink on mobs with less than 50% of their Endurance gives you a chance for +Absorb, and the chance increases the lower their Endurance is. Perhaps DON'T have it scale with number of mobs, so that it can be strong enough to be valuable even against a single foe.