The Illusion of a powerset

[smnolimits43]

We just finished a family game of Harry Potter Clue.  I got to lvl 8, and i see how you guys feel damage wise, yikes.

 

 

[Redletter]

On 12/29/2022 at 2:57 PM, Dragotect said:

This, however, just feels par for the course as far as my experience with doms go. They really suck at soloing, teaming, controlling, and DPS until you can get them fully geared with sets.

I'm sorry... what? They... they have the EXACT same controls but doms get higher damage scaling, in the EXACT same mags as controllers get with the exception of Illusion control, which, ironically, GETS MORE CONTROLS THAN THE CONTROLLER. Are you confusing a "support" set for "controls"? Because Force Field doesn't make your controls better.

On 12/29/2022 at 2:57 PM, Dragotect said:

I think extra damage against CCed targets, like controllers get, would go a long way toward making them better for solo play. Or if their first two holds (typically single target immobilize/hold) did 50-100% more damage they would be fine for leveling solo.

They really don't need it, you have more DPS than the controller because your secondary is full of damage dealing moves. Use your actual attacks instead of JUST mezzing. Containment's damage bonus to controlled targets needs to be OBSCENELY high to justify this mentality, we can check the math!

 

To put it in perspective, Mind Control's Dominate power deals roughly 10 damage (a little LESS on controllers, a little MORE on dominators), you get it at level 2. It's your single target hold. You're gonna be using it for forever. A 50% damage buff would give you 15 damage, and a 100% bump would give you 20 damage.

 

Controllers had BETTER be dealing at LEAST 100% more damage to controller targets, because the t1 attack power for doms deals around 10 damage at level 2 as, and they're melee attack (now available at creation) deals around 17 damage, with many of them getting as high as 21. The LOW performers deal around 15 damage.

 

So, a dominator already has access to attacks that deal AS much damage as attacks benefitting from containment's damage boost, assuming that bonus is at minimum *100%* extra damage. If it is, great, they get to deal Dominator damage on controller targets, Dominators can deal it on ANY target. 

 

Not that I would say no to MORE damage on the dominator, they don't need it, but I won't say no to stealing the one thing that lets controllers keep up with their damage.

On 12/29/2022 at 2:57 PM, Dragotect said:

The domination lock down effect, if you can't get it perma, is really only good for locking down AVs on teams otherwise.

Doubling the magnitude of your mez powers isn't "only good" for AVs, because having double the mag is never a bad thing. Not that it matters, because this statement you just made proves your point about them sucking at controls wrong -- controllers struggle to mez AVs, Dominators do not. 

On 12/29/2022 at 2:57 PM, Dragotect said:

The endurance boost simply isn't good enough for solo play as it isn't often enough and is done out of desperation FAR too often against groups of around 5 or risk endurance burnout by number 4.

So... your complaint is that Domination's endurance refresh is used in desperation far too often in solo play, against groups of 5, as you'll burn out around the 4th enemy.

 

So. All classes have the same endurance? And Doms and Controllers have the same END costs on their mez powers. So, if this end drain cost exists on Dominators, than it exists on controllers in the exact same measure, because that's how math works. Except the controller DOESNT get the ability to click a button, double the strength of their controls AND refresh their endurance.

 

What kind of build are you running that you can't kill 4 enemies before your end runs out? The radiation assault's first melee attack deals *MORE* damage than it's equivalent on a *BLASTER*. Have you considered you're just IGNORING your real damage dealing options?

 

Even if this WEREN'T the case (we'll say you don't HAVE domination ready), that's fine, because in SOLO play, you're not meeting groups of 5. Most solo mob packs cap OUT at 4 in most environs. The only reason you'd pull MORE than that is if you deliberately set your team size higher, OR, pulled an extra mob group -- and that's on you. If you can't handle those situations, then don't put yourself in them to begin with.

 

On 12/29/2022 at 2:57 PM, Dragotect said:

Not only that, but I swear just one dominator on a TF adds 5 minutes to the complete time because they AoE immobilize too soon- making all those tighter, more damaging AoEs from blasters/melee 50% less effective- and simply cannot make up the damage lost this way.

Doms and Controller have the same mez's, if a dom AoE immob's a group, a controller is also. They are the exact same, until dominators hit domination, where they become better controllers.

 

Wait. No. This isn't a complaint about dominators, this is a complaint about PLAYERS.

 

Well, the exact same argument applies. If a player has premature mez problems, they have them on all their mez toons. Just do what they do in MSR and remind them to mez responsibly. It's REMARKABLE what problems team communication can solve instead of blaming a class you seem to fundamentally fail to understand.

On 12/29/2022 at 2:57 PM, Dragotect said:

I've only gotten minimal enjoyment out of my more recent dominators by focusing on their secondary set because that's where their damage is.

Ok, so, you DO know the DAMAGE SET is where you GET YOUR DAMAGE? Why... why did you pretend otherwise?

On 12/29/2022 at 2:57 PM, Dragotect said:

Doms, in my opinion, are the absolute worst archetype in the game because everything they do is done better by the other ones.

A mind control controller's Dominate power has a mag of 3 for 15seconds, with a 20% to buff that to a mag of 4.

A dominator in the same position has the same thing, but instead of a 20% to buff the mag by 1, they *DOUBLE IT* from 3 to 6.

 

6 is a bigger number than 4. This numerical superiority not only continues across all their powers, but the divide between the effectiveness becomes greater when you account for things like "Power Up" which boost the effectiveness of your controls, and of course, by the END of the character's build, you can have domination up PERMANENTLY, making this bonus, effectively permanent. I have no idea where this idea that dominators are "worse" at controls comes from. You are, quite literally, TWICE as good as a dom than as a troller.

On 12/29/2022 at 2:57 PM, Dragotect said:

They're either blasters without the burst damage to bring down enemies before enemies bring you down or controllers without the support to survive a battle of attrition.

Empathy will not save a controller where a dominator would have died. Kinetics will not save a controller where a dominator would have died. Your BEST arguments come from the DEBUFF secondaries which make enemies weak enough that they can keep up with domination. Congrats, you need an ENTIRE power set to keep up with an INHERENT CLASS POWER. This mentality works in the REVERSE, you realize that, right? I could complain about how CONTROLLERS are Dominators without the higher mags needed to be effective against tough enemies, or that they're defenders without the support numbers to make their buffs/debuffs worth having on a team OVER a defender?

 

Man, blasters are such shitty scrappers dude, they can't even CRIT, like, wtf??? Devs, please buff blasters, this is insulting, theyre the WORST class in the GAME dude. They're dominators but without the mez, they're sentinels without the debuffs or survivability, theyre defenders without the support! WHO is this class even MADE for, dude? Either buff it, or get rid of it, I swear, every Dr. Aeon's i run gets 30 minutes added to it because these guys will just snipe a mob and pull the whole pod over and get us all killed. Terrible class, give them a rework or soooomething, dude. 

 

On 12/29/2022 at 2:57 PM, Dragotect said:

They simply underperform on every regard while leveling

It sounds to me like you legitimately and fundamentally don't understand the class. Like, somewhere along the way your brain broke. I can sympathize, I also eat chalk, but at least I don't blame Dominators for it.

On 12/29/2022 at 2:57 PM, Dragotect said:

and I've rarely slotted them out with sets because I can't justify the cost to do so when I could have more fun with a factory setting blaster.

Ok, so you like DPS classes more than control classes. That's cool. I don't happen to like blasters, theyre kinda just dominators that die too fast and don't have controls :v)

On 12/29/2022 at 2:57 PM, Dragotect said:

Even worse, they're the only archetype where I'll ever scale back to -1 difficulty simply to reduce the time it takes to get through a mission.

I do that with tankers, does that mean tankers are bad? Or maybe that I'm just bad at clearing with tankers...

On 12/29/2022 at 2:57 PM, Dragotect said:

Essentially, before any other archetype Dominators NEED to be addressed but aren't going to because they're also probably the easiest class to make insanely OP

Well, yeah, I mean, theyre already twice as good as controllers. I can't imagine what they'd need more of, honestly, so how about we just make domination a toggle? So I can, at any time, decide to be the best control class in the game. Ya know, skip building for perma dom, we ALLL know that's where we're goin anyway, right? Let's cut out the middle man, save us all a few million INF.

On 12/29/2022 at 2:57 PM, Dragotect said:

given they're theoretically a control and damage archetype.

Not theoretically, they're quite literally that. Here, see?

On 12/29/2022 at 2:57 PM, Dragotect said:

And on paper that should be a win/win as far as soloing goes,

And they are! It's very hard to die when enemies are subject to all kinds of control effects. It's honestly easier than a blaster solo!

On 12/29/2022 at 2:57 PM, Dragotect said:

but in practice they're just masters of nothing.

Ooooooh! That's what's going on here! Ok, I see you, don't worry man, I've got you.

MASTERmind is RIGHT below Dominator, I can see how you'd be confused now. You misclicked! Happens to the best of us.

[twozerofoxtrot]

On 1/6/2023 at 2:48 PM, Redletter said:

Because Force Field doesn't make your controls better.

 

*hops into the mob right next to the tank with Repulsion Field toggled on, and once the mob is blown clear uses an AoE Immob*

 

*turns to you, grinning and waggling bushy eyebrows*

 

"You were saying?"

[Dragotect]

Damn, given the responses to my opinions here you would've thought I shoved a stick in their mother's eye or something.

[Redletter]

8 hours ago, Dragotect said:

Damn, given the responses to my opinions here you would've thought I shoved a stick in their mother's eye or something.

 

My mom happens to BE a dominator thank you very much!

 

Wait a minute...

[Captain Fabulous]

Getting a good chuckle out of most of this thread. Only have one thing to add:

Dominators aren't Controllers and shouldn't be played like one. If you're playing your Dom like a Troller you're doing it wrong.

[Nightmarer 3]

On 12/29/2022 at 10:22 AM, luxlorica said:

Illusion is here for Doms now and I think it stinks. Wow is it terrible.

 

Phantom Army is neutered to the extent that one wonders why it was even included. The time and endurance used to fire it can get you killed but the decoys can’t save you nor do they do any appreciable damage. They are largely a waste of arcanatime and a great way to get even more bad guys targeting you as they completely ignore the decoy smashing them in the face with a boulder to come over and beat you to death.

 

If they are not going to taunt, or be in some other way useful, they should be always up and comparable to imps. Right now they are more comparable to brawl but with a much longer cooldown. And having downtime for such a milquetoast effect is inexcusable.

 

Gleam seems to be hitting pretty reliably. But in doing no damage, it is worthless against those mobs that just ignore your attempts to mezz them. And without the real Phantom Army there is no way to keep them off you so you end up having to run away again, and again, and again. Not to mention a huge endurance cost and a long cool down for very little aid in not dying.

 

Did I say no damage? That’s wrong. It does just enough single digit damage to ensure the mobs can find you with your invis up.

 

Spectral Terror also does a great job at slowly doing nothing. And that works great on a controller with many other ways to stay safe and chip away at a group. If mobs live through the dom terror, they will just come over and beat you to death, and with no way at all to distract them, you are just waiting to die. Or you could run away… again.

 

Its like the whole set is designed to do nothing. Everything in it should be doing damage with the possible exception of Deceive. PA should either be constant companions or they should taunt to make their downtime, and the long chase to shorten that downtime, worth clicking on the icon.

 

Its like they ported the controller playstyle over to dom without any of the safety and in compensation for the loss of that safety, they added a barrel full of nerfs to ensure the new abilities did not become even remotely useful.

 

As if dominator play is supposed to be you running out of instances to save your own life over and over.

 

But that’s just my experience of it.

 

Maybe you have had a more positive encounter with the power set?

 

Does it just need a specific damage secondary such that it can essentially tag along as a dead-weight “primary”?

 

Is it a late bloomer that only becomes useful once you are an incarnate with everything maxed?

 

Am I just an uncultured philistine who lacks the ability to appreciate a set as … “subtle” and Illusion seems to be on dom.

 

What do you think?

 

 

That pretty much hits the spot. The "you're playing it wrong" argument that I have seen quite often in this very thread is irrelevant because no one can dictate how to play.

[biostem]

7 minutes ago, Nightmarer said:

this very thread is irrelevant because no one can dictate how to play.

Sure, play however you like, but it can be objectively determined that certain playstyles are more effective or perform better than others.  You needn't care about being more effective or better performing, but you then give up any leg to stand on, with regard to coming to the realization that your play style is less effective.  It's sort of like screaming that your car doesn't work well because you put the wrong grade of fuel in the tank - "Don't tell me how to maintain my car" may be an argument you can make, but that underperformance is entirely on your shoulders...

[Captain Fabulous]

1 hour ago, Nightmarer said:

 

That pretty much hits the spot. The "you're playing it wrong" argument that I have seen quite often in this very thread is irrelevant because no one can dictate how to play.

Blaster runs into room full of critters, dies in under 2 seconds

Blaster: BLASTERS SUCK!!!

Tank: Y'know, if you let me grab aggro before you run in you won't die so much.

Blaster: SCREW YOU! I'LL PLAY HOWEVER I WANT! 

Tank: 🤷‍♂️

Blaster: Oh hey, I just got a badge called Exalted. Cool. Wonder what it's for...

[UltraAlt]

On 12/30/2022 at 12:09 AM, luxlorica said:

I don’t see any statements to the effect of “Its Bad”. What I see is “its bad because…” and then some reasons.

 

And what is in there by default that most people miss, "In my opinion".

 

And like the starting post here, what is left out most of the time "My character is level X. I have played them [solo/in-groups/on-a-task-force/etc]. I have slotted my character {this way]. My tactic is to [blindly run into a mob/try to pull/use other tactics]." which are all linchpin points in such a discussion.

 

On 12/30/2022 at 5:30 AM, luxlorica said:

A method of writing, often used in journalism, is to start with a synopsis styled statement and then unpack or elaborate that statement in further exploration of the topic.

cave de novo foro usuario qui tendunt ad conflictum incitandum

[Nightmarer 3]

On 1/23/2023 at 9:15 PM, biostem said:

Sure, play however you like, but it can be objectively determined that certain playstyles are more effective or perform better than others.  You needn't care about being more effective or better performing, but you then give up any leg to stand on, with regard to coming to the realization that your play style is less effective.  It's sort of like screaming that your car doesn't work well because you put the wrong grade of fuel in the tank - "Don't tell me how to maintain my car" may be an argument you can make, but that underperformance is entirely on your shoulders...

Actually... no, it's nothing like that, not at all

 

[Nightmarer 3]

On 1/23/2023 at 11:01 PM, Captain Fabulous said:

Blaster runs into room full of critters, dies in under 2 seconds

Blaster: BLASTERS SUCK!!!

Tank: Y'know, if you let me grab aggro before you run in you won't die so much.

Blaster: SCREW YOU! I'LL PLAY HOWEVER I WANT! 

Tank: 🤷‍♂️

Blaster: Oh hey, I just got a badge called Exalted. Cool. Wonder what it's for...

Again, nope. And nowadays in the current state of the game, newsflash, a blaster can run into a full room and not die without too much effort.

[Captain Fabulous]

Just now, Nightmarer said:

Again, nope. And nowadays in the current state of the game, newsflash, a blaster can run into a full room and not die without too much effort.

OK man, do whatever makes you feel all warm and curdled inside.

[Nightmarer 3]

2 minutes ago, Captain Fabulous said:

OK man, do whatever makes you feel all warm and curdled inside.

Yeah, you post something totally out of context and then you "give up". See, you can play however you want but the reality is that Illusion on Domis has a piss poor performance compared to ALL other dominator primary powersets.

 

Sure, try getting the most of it playing this or that way but truth is that, if you put same effort on all other dominator primaries, you will end up at a much better spot and will get much better performance than you get with Illusion. The way it has been ported has been wrong and there are ways of correcting it. 

 

You made a silly comparison going to an unrelated extreme so yes, I will do whatever makes me feel warm and stuff but truth is, your post makes no sense in this thread's discussion.

[Captain Fabulous]

14 minutes ago, Nightmarer said:

Yeah, you post something totally out of context and then you "give up". See, you can play however you want but the reality is that Illusion on Domis has a piss poor performance compared to ALL other dominator primary powersets.

 

Sure, try getting the most of it playing this or that way but truth is that, if you put same effort on all other dominator primaries, you will end up at a much better spot and will get much better performance than you get with Illusion. The way it has been ported has been wrong and there are ways of correcting it. 

 

You made a silly comparison going to an unrelated extreme so yes, I will do whatever makes me feel warm and stuff but truth is, your post makes no sense in this thread's discussion.

I'm not "giving up", I'm simply not going to argue with you. I get it, you think the Dom Illusion set sucks. I don't particularly agree with you, and neither does the performance data, but hey, it's your opinion and you're entitled to it. And while you are indeed also entitled to play however you want, if you're playing against your AT's strengths, or expecting it to be something it's not, you're going to have a sub-par playing experience. Y'know, like the non-tricked out Blaster that secretly deep-down inside thinks he's a Tank, dies every time he tries to be, and then blames his powerset instead of his playstyle. Which has been my point all along. YMMV. 🤷

[SeraphimKensai]

Not diving into numbers because I'm taking a break from some calculations on a survey by perusing the forums. I have an Ill/sav/ice domi and it plays really well and shreds things. Sure I might not be the best case study as all my characters basically start at lvl 50 and fully IOd out to the gills. But when fully slotted out it's probably my most fun (I know very subjective) dominator I have and I have maybe 8-10 other fully IOd domis as various sets too. Perhaps because it's one of the more recent ones and the fact that I wanted illusion control on dominators forever I'm being less critical on it.

[Nightmarer 3]

58 minutes ago, Captain Fabulous said:

I'm not "giving up", I'm simply not going to argue with you. I get it, you think the Dom Illusion set sucks. I don't particularly agree with you, and neither does the performance data, but hey, it's your opinion and you're entitled to it. And while you are indeed also entitled to play however you want, if you're playing against your AT's strengths, or expecting it to be something it's not, you're going to have a sub-par playing experience. Y'know, like the non-tricked out Blaster that secretly deep-down inside thinks he's a Tank, dies every time he tries to be, and then blames his powerset instead of his playstyle. Which has been my point all along. YMMV. 🤷

 

OK man, do whatever makes you feel all warm and curdled inside.

 

 

 

[Xiddo]

On 12/30/2022 at 7:44 PM, MoonSheep said:

if you’re feeling underwhelmed and want to experience a top tier dominator give mind/fire/ice or plant/energy/soul a go on test, the two unmatched kings 👑

The cheek of this man... He and I use our duo our doms. I'm on a plant/psi/ice and he has the gall to amp up plant/energy/soul. Heartbroken. Two years of teaming down the PAN 😭

[MoonSheep]

2 hours ago, Xiddo said:

The cheek of this man... He and I use our duo our doms. I'm on a plant/psi/ice and he has the gall to amp up plant/energy/soul. Heartbroken. Two years of teaming down the PAN 😭

 

i have @Mezmera looking over my shoulder when posting on the dom forums, i have to hype up energy 😛

 

i do think it’s one of the more premium dom attack sets too, i’m not sure psi has enough damage for my liking