Were Brutes that Badly Nerfed?

[Lunar Ronin]

15 minutes ago, tidge said:

 

This deserves more upvotes.

 

If there is ever a Homecoming change to %damage, I feel like we will see solo players mostly focusing on Blasters and Scrappers, with some evangelists for Brutes and Stalkers. The only way some AT can keep their map-clear times (especially at x8) within an order of magnitude of other ATs is by leveraging %damage.

 

There are some folks that see %damage as inherently unfair because with them it becomes possible for all ATs to clear large maps with x8 spawn sizes in less than an hour. This is exactly the wrong definition of unfair. Game rewards are (with the exception of Prismatic Aether Particles and merit rewards) directly scale with the number of enemy defeats. I don't want to play City of X where the game rewards is NOT tied to enemy defeats, and I don't want to go back to a game where a Defender has to take eight times as long to clear a map as a Blaster.

 

Characters that leverage %damage must carefully pick and slot powers to do that leveraging. It is so much better for the health of the game that all ATs have this option. No players should have their feelings hurt because %damage exists.

 

No character is meant to be able to solo x8 anything.  The base difficulty is +0x1.  Every character can solo that now.  Being able to solo at x8 is a sign of a broken OP character, because that's a difficulty size meant for a team.

[tidge]

16 minutes ago, Lunar Ronin said:

 

No character is meant to be able to solo x8 anything.  The base difficulty is +0x1.  Every character can solo that now.  Being able to solo at x8 is a sign of a broken OP character, because that's a difficulty size meant for a team.

 

Jack E, is that you?

[Lunar Ronin]

Just now, tidge said:

 

Jack E, is that you?

 

Please.  I'm just saying that using x8 as a solo baseline is flawed, because then what?  There's been lots of people complaining over the past five years that they feel useless on a team because mobs are nearly immediately dead.  And they're right.  Why have a team at all if you can solo x8?  The truth is, characters shouldn't be able to solo x8.  Just Paragon Studios and Homecoming have both increased characters' power level so substantially over the years that that is now a thing... but it still shouldn't be a solo baseline.

[tidge]

5 minutes ago, Lunar Ronin said:

 

Please.  I'm just saying that using x8 as a solo baseline is flawed, because then what?  There's been lots of people complaining over the past five years that they feel useless on a team because mobs are nearly immediately dead.  And they're right.  Why have a team at all if you can solo x8?  The truth is, characters shouldn't be able to solo x8.  Just Paragon Studios and Homecoming have both increased characters' power level so substantially over the years that that is now a thing... but it still shouldn't be a solo baseline.

 

I'm not making an argument about the baseline, I am arguing about REWARDS. A Blaster at +0x1 will reap rewards an order of magnitude faster than a Controller at +0x1. This is inherently unfair. A Controller that is able to close the gap by making specific build choices to use %damage is not cheating nor iis it breaking the game.

 

[Wavicle]

9 hours ago, Erratic1 said:

All those people who choose to farm, and they are dealing with the bosses which are there.

 

People who want to solo maps made for teams. It SHOULD be a slog. For EVERY AT.

[Erratic1]

1 hour ago, Wavicle said:

 

People who want to solo maps made for teams. It SHOULD be a slog. For EVERY AT.

 

I do not recall making a comment on ease or difficulty, just which AT is better.

[Seed22]

On 3/29/2024 at 8:17 AM, Lunar Ronin said:

 

No character is meant to be able to solo x8 anything.  The base difficulty is +0x1.  Every character can solo that now.  Being able to solo at x8 is a sign of a broken OP character, because that's a difficulty size meant for a team.

The good thing is nobody but you agrees with this sentiment, not the devs, certainly not me, no one. 
 

But it is alarming to even see this Jack Emmerett crap posted. 

 

 

Edited April 2 by GM_GooglyMoogly
ad hominem removed - please argue the topic and not attack each other

[Wavicle]

2 minutes ago, Seed22 said:

The good thing is nobody but you agrees with this sentiment, not the devs, certainly not me, no one. 

That isn’t true at all.

[Wavicle]

11 hours ago, tidge said:

 

I'm not making an argument about the baseline, I am arguing about REWARDS. A Blaster at +0x1 will reap rewards an order of magnitude faster than a Controller at +0x1. This is inherently unfair. A Controller that is able to close the gap by making specific build choices to use %damage is not cheating nor iis it breaking the game.

 

It’s not inherently unfair. On a team, the controller offers the blaster safety and speed they cannot match solo.

 

The fundamental design of the game is that some archetypes are better at soloing than others, and those that are not as good as soloing almost all offer more to a team than those that are.

 

now there can be a legitimate debate on whether that is good design or not, but it’s definitely the case.

[tidge]

1 hour ago, Wavicle said:

It’s not inherently unfair. On a team, the controller offers the blaster safety and speed they cannot match solo.

 

The fundamental design of the game is that some archetypes are better at soloing than others, and those that are not as good as soloing almost all offer more to a team than those that are.

 

now there can be a legitimate debate on whether that is good design or not, but it’s definitely the case.

 

So your argument against %procs is that some players have to play a certain way to get rewards equal to what other players get?

[Maelwys]

Personally I'd still like to see one of the Brute ATOs altered to grant an AoE teamwide damage buff based on their current Fury level.
That way bringing a Brute along would actually benefit the rest of the team a little bit more than bringing a Scrapper/Stalker; and it'd serve a slightly different role to a tanker.

There aren't many melee toons (certain VEATs with double-assault I guess?) that buff allied damage%; and even in a team with a Kin it'd still get some milage versus tough single targets. Plus, "Contagious Fury" has a certain ring to it...
 

[Erratic1]

1 hour ago, Maelwys said:

Personally I'd still like to see one of the Brute ATOs altered to grant an AoE teamwide damage buff based on their current Fury level.
That way bringing a Brute along would actually benefit the rest of the team a little bit more than bringing a Scrapper/Stalker; and it'd serve a slightly different role to a tanker.

 

So the Brute would get nothing from slotting the ATO?

[Snarky]

On 1/11/2023 at 2:38 PM, Snarky said:

Brutes have been scre... errr changed a few times.  The most memorable was "The great Brute Fury nerf"  Notice how your Fury bar never goes to the top?  Or does for 1 millisecond when you hit Villain archetype power and is squished before you can get an attack off?  Wasn't always like that.  It used to go to 11, or at least to 10.  Now it goes to 7?  8?  There are people who will tell you this was not a nerf.  Not many, but we got some nutballs out there.  Fury used to be hard to get and keep.  Brutes used ro have to work to keep capped....cannonballing fresh spawns to pump that bar, riding the line between madness survival and damage.  Now, yawn, Fury maintains itself and Tankers mostly out damage Brutes thanks to Tanker damage buffs and AoE increases on Tankers.

 

That is why I do not play Brutes anymore.  

I agree with myself.  Also, Brute ATOs are an even more wasted opportunity than PvP Sniper set with it’s insta snipe i/o.  And that is saying something 

[Maelwys]

6 hours ago, Erratic1 said:

 

So the Brute would get nothing from slotting the ATO?

 

There's nothing to stop an ATO having multiple effects, and in fact that's how most are coded (since they add stuff like +Recharge% too)

 

Take the current "Unrelenting Fury" ATO for example. Leave its existing buffs as is, but give it an additional set bonus which in turn grants a constantly-refreshing, short duration damage buff to any allies within a certain radius (like power pool Assault) where the "+damage strength" buff value varies based on the Brute's current "Rage" value (AKA their Fury bar).

OR replace the ATO's current effects completely and just give BOTH the Brute and their teammates damage buffs... the teammates get a buff based on the Brute's current fury, and the Brute gets a buff based on the number of total allies (including themselves) within X feet. The buff recieved by the Brute could be some mixture of Damage and/or EndRed/Recovery/Regen/Resistance/whatever if the design goal of that particular ATO is to increase their sustainability.

 

(I'm not sure if the Cottage Rule applies to enhancements...) 🙄 🏡

 

Edited March 30 by Maelwys

[Wavicle]

I’m sorry but the idea that BRUTES, the number one most popular AT in the game, with the very best combination of damage and survivability of any class, would still be balanced giving team +Dam is laughable at best. Does the concept of game balance mean nothing to you at all?

[Wavicle]

Brutes are fine, they need no buffs, though I admit that one ATO is not very good.

 

tanks need a bit of a nerf, and they will probably get it.

[Erratic1]

48 minutes ago, Wavicle said:

I’m sorry but the idea that BRUTES, the number one most popular AT in the game....

 

 You have something to back up that claim? Or are you relying on statistics from long ago, say like claiming GM is the number one car seller in the world because they sold more cars than anyone else in 1972?

[ScarySai]

On 3/29/2024 at 7:17 AM, Lunar Ronin said:

No character is meant to be able to solo x8 anything.  The base difficulty is +0x1.

 

Factually untrue, maybe during Jack's time, which wasn't exactly the period people remember fondly.

 

Don't spread misinformation, kthnx.

 

As for the topic at hand: the fury nerf needs to be reverted, and the brute's fury proc needs to be replaced. The popularity of the AT is meaningless when the bulk of it was fire farmers, and fire armor (especially brute burn, which actually did good damage) got giga nerfed.

Edited March 30 by ScarySai

[Maelwys]

3 hours ago, Erratic1 said:

 

 You have something to back up that claim? Or are you relying on statistics from long ago, say like claiming GM is the number one car seller in the world because they sold more cars than anyone else in 1972?

Guessing they're getting this from the old Homecoming Stats page from four years ago (when FA Brute farmers almost outnumbered everyone else put together)
Which yeah, is (i) rather dated and (ii) not a great indication of how Brutes are mechanically performing at levl 50 vs Tanks/Scrappers/Stalkers.

IMO Brutes are indeed fine when compared to other melee ATs before a tricked out IO build is taken into consideration; particularly when soloing.
But they bring very little to teams - Tankers have better AoE damage and sustainability (even if both are at the res caps, Tanks still have a bigger HP + Absorb pool); Stalkers and Scrappers have better Single Target and Spike damage.
If you were feeling charitable you might say Brutes end up as the "jack of all trades and master of none" here... but honestly if everyone is well beyond the Defence softcap then the fact they can hit 90% Damage Resistance rather than a Scrapper/Stalker's 75% is usually redundant. So damage output tends to matter more than anything else.
Put simply, Brutes' performance floor might be a bit higher, but they have a lot lower peak performance in endgame team content (even in smaller teams with a decent Kin).

The Scrapper and Stalker ATOs increase the peak damage output of those ATs considerably, and the same is true for the the Tanker ATOs in terms of survivability... but Brute ATOs are not in the same ballpark performance-wise. They could honestly do with a tweak to at least get them within sight of the stadium.

So yes, I'd like to see the Brute ATOs buffed; particularly the superior version of the uniques, since those factor in much more at endgame.
Brute's Fury is at best ~14% (+7 Fury) Damage on a character that's already sitting at ~370% damage just from Regular slotting and Fury.
Unrelenting Fury is pathetic, typically giving much lower performance than a Panacea Unique.

All that said, I'm not claiming that Brutes aren't enjoyable; or even that they're never useful on a team... but I am claiming that on most high-end team content you can usually swap a Brute out with a Tanker/Scapper/Stalker and the team will perform better.

EDIT: To be fair... the -res from Tar Patch (new Dark Mastery Epic Pool) actually goes quite some way to levelling the playing field. However Tanks get access to it as well; taking it means dropping Gloom; and it's not an every-spawn thing... particularly if your team is in "maximum woodchipper" mode.
 

Edited March 30 by Maelwys

[Erratic1]

10 minutes ago, Maelwys said:

MO Brutes are indeed fine when compared to other melee ATs before a tricked out IO build is taken into consideration; particularly when soloing.

 

If performance while soloing were the yardstick of comparison, Brutes did not need any nerfs as Scrappers were just fine while soloing.

11 minutes ago, Maelwys said:

But they bring very little to teams - Tankers have better AoE damage and sustainability (even if both are at the res caps, Tanks still have a bigger HP + Absorb pool); Stalkers and Scrappers have better Single Target and Spike damage.

 

And then there is this. There is no reason to have a Brute along--the Tanker is tougher, taunts just for being there, and does more AoE damage and the Scrapper as you note deals much better burst.

 

It is worrisome that in the lead up to the most recent patch, the Developers That Be apparently mentally lump Brutes in as some sort of faux-Tanker, as that was the role assigned to Brutes before the system was scrapped. Brutes do not survive so well. And when the difficulty setting starts getting turned up, it becomes painfully obvious.

 

16 minutes ago, Maelwys said:

The Scrapper and Stalker ATOs increase the peak damage output of those ATs considerably, and the same is true for the the Tanker ATOs in terms of survivability... but Brute ATOs are not in the same ballpark performance-wise. They could honestly do with a tweak to get them into the same ballpark.

 

This is something noted by a lot of people and has been noted for a long time. But there is NOTHING to suggest it is even under consideration.

[Lunar Ronin]

Brutes still have a couple of advantages.  Namely, I personally much prefer Stalker over Scrapper.  I just find Scrappers dull.  But there are some power sets that are much better on other ATs than Stalker, like Katana/Ninja Blade and Martial Arts, and the resistance-based armor sets.  For those, I go Brute.  Why not Tanker?  Again, dull.

[ScarySai]

3 hours ago, Lunar Ronin said:

Brutes still have a couple of advantages.

 

No, they really don't.

[Maelwys]

7 hours ago, Lunar Ronin said:

Brutes still have a couple of advantages.  Namely, I personally much prefer Stalker over Scrapper.  I just find Scrappers dull.  But there are some power sets that are much better on other ATs than Stalker, like Katana/Ninja Blade and Martial Arts, and the resistance-based armor sets.  For those, I go Brute.  Why not Tanker?  Again, dull.

Unfortunately your finding Scrappers and Tankers "dull" does not constitute a mechanical advantage for Brutes.

The only real advantage Brutes have is when soloing in the very early game before your attacks can be properly slotted up with SO enhancements (e.g. if there is zero damage enhancement slotted in an attack, then a Brute will deal more damage than a non-crit from a Scrapper if they have >25 Fury). Combine that with their high base HP and they're probably the easiest melee AT to play at very low levels; which is why a lot of newer players get hooked on them. However at level ~22 that lead starts to evaporate; and on team content at endgame Brutes are left trailing well behind the pack. 

[wjrasmussen]

14 hours ago, Wavicle said:

I’m sorry but the idea that BRUTES, the number one most popular AT in the game, with the very best combination of damage and survivability of any class, would still be balanced giving team +Dam is laughable at best. Does the concept of game balance mean nothing to you at all?

Good point.  Hey, just to add onto what Wavicle wrote,  They need more than just giving them team +Dam. Perhaps some kind of team +regen.

[ScarySai]

18 hours ago, Wavicle said:

BRUTES, the number one most popular AT in the game, with the very best combination of damage and survivability of any class

 

 

Tanks exist and effectively overshadow brutes entirely, while certain scrappers are on the same level of survival as a brute quite easily with notably more damage. Popularity is also a meaningless statistic to cite from a census made years ago, which mostly consisted of fire farmers.

 

The only things you can say shines on brute are regen and savage melee.

Edited March 31 by ScarySai