Make Serum not a joke

[Galaxy Brain]

While I do like the idea of calling artillery and the like, what if Serum was made more defensive?

Change the Recovery boost for Regeneration and/or more Resistance, and give the subject a taunt aura, with Tanker punchvoking for the duration.

It could then serve as emergency tanking, until it wears off.

 

We dont need a new power to replace serum, just making it work well would be enough :)

 

That said, serum only works on your merc pets. They are all 90% ranged so making them into actual aggro tanks isnt the most effective boost imo.

[Steampunkette]

Okay... so... different suggestion:

 

Give each of the different Mercenaries a new "Unlockable" power like they get from the usual upgrade powers. Tie it to Serum.

 

Then make Serum a toggle on your target. 0 end cost toggle.

 

You put it on the Commando and he gains damage resistance and all, but also unlocks an additional power. Maybe a "Bolstering Cry" where your Commando buffs your other pets at random intervals. But only your pets.

 

Give the medic a big AoE heal he'll throw off once in a while on pets and players.

 

Have the Spec Ops apply an immediate 100% aggro-shed and gain an aggro multiplier of 0.

 

Let the basic Mercs get a huge recharge rate buff that they can apply as an AoE to pets and players.

 

It being made a toggle means that it's 100% uptime for -one- of your pets, and it becomes a tactical question of which buff you want. Do you need more AoE heals? Would increasing your team's attack speed be useful? What about making your spec ops into stealth units so they don't get killed? Or are you solo and need to put it on the commando to increase every pet's relative power while making the commando really hard to kill?

 

 

[Galaxy Brain]

Unfortunately pets cannot receive recharge rate changes at all (both good and bad).

 

It's a cool idea to make each pet a useful target, but I think just treating serum like a unique 3rd upgrade to pets may be the best route!

[Steampunkette]

You're right! I forgot about that in seven freaking years. (SO GLAD to have City back!) The whole "They'll just cycle the fastest attack" issue.

 

Could make it to an aggro-buff for that one merc. Sort of an "I'll die to keep the rest of the squad safe!"

 

Point is: Create some extra function to it that is unique to each Merc type, make it a toggle for constant effect, drop the recharge to maybe 1 minute.

 

It'd still be a unique ability to empower your troops, but it'd be more fun and tactically useful to apply it to different pets in different situations.

[Galaxy Brain]

You're right! I forgot about that in seven freaking years. (SO GLAD to have City back!) The whole "They'll just cycle the fastest attack" issue.

 

Could make it to an aggro-buff for that one merc. Sort of an "I'll die to keep the rest of the squad safe!"

 

Point is: Create some extra function to it that is unique to each Merc type, make it a toggle for constant effect, drop the recharge to maybe 1 minute.

 

It'd still be a unique ability to empower your troops, but it'd be more fun and tactically useful to apply it to different pets in different situations.

 

Thatd be really cool! Though it would need to be good for each of the 4 pet types as a toggle, so maybe each pet gets a different aoe boost as long as you keep it on them + stats.

 

 

[Vanden]

Changing the buffs that Serum gives doesn’t solve the problem it has. What it does is not the problem. The problem is that it has a ridiculously short duration for its enormous recharge time, and makes the pet you use it on useless for an equally ridiculous length of time, compared to its duration. All these suggestions to rework how the power functions at its core are missing the forest for the trees.

[Galaxy Brain]

I still favor a solution that behaves almost like the old school mastermind upgrade that was single target. Just allow the player to build up super soldiers (and/or give the power a passive effect on your troops just for taking it too would be nice!)

[Steampunkette]

Changing the buffs that Serum gives doesn’t solve the problem it has. What it does is not the problem. The problem is that it has a ridiculously short duration for its enormous recharge time, and makes the pet you use it on useless for an equally ridiculous length of time, compared to its duration. All these suggestions to rework how the power functions at its core are missing the forest for the trees.

 

I suggested making it into a 0 endurance toggle with a 1 minute recharge rate.

 

What part of that doesn't deal with the short duration and enormous recharge time and the uselessness of a pet?

 

The uselessness would only happen when the toggle gets taken off... but that's only liable to happen when the pet is killed or between missions as team composition changes so... *shrug*

[Galaxy Brain]

Changing the buffs that Serum gives doesn’t solve the problem it has. What it does is not the problem. The problem is that it has a ridiculously short duration for its enormous recharge time, and makes the pet you use it on useless for an equally ridiculous length of time, compared to its duration. All these suggestions to rework how the power functions at its core are missing the forest for the trees.

 

I suggested making it into a 0 endurance toggle with a 1 minute recharge rate.

 

What part of that doesn't deal with the short duration and enormous recharge time and the uselessness of a pet?

 

The uselessness would only happen when the toggle gets taken off... but that's only liable to happen when the pet is killed or between missions as team composition changes so... *shrug*

 

While that deals with the root problem, it also adds onto the original power. While it's a really cool idea, the power as is was in a good spot in terms of what it did to the pets and just allowing it to be up far more frequently with altered values would be more feasible to implement.

 

The question is what values and how often...

[Vanden]

Changing the buffs that Serum gives doesn’t solve the problem it has. What it does is not the problem. The problem is that it has a ridiculously short duration for its enormous recharge time, and makes the pet you use it on useless for an equally ridiculous length of time, compared to its duration. All these suggestions to rework how the power functions at its core are missing the forest for the trees.

 

I suggested making it into a 0 endurance toggle with a 1 minute recharge rate.

 

What part of that doesn't deal with the short duration and enormous recharge time and the uselessness of a pet?

 

The uselessness would only happen when the toggle gets taken off... but that's only liable to happen when the pet is killed or between missions as team composition changes so... *shrug*

 

Like I said, changing the buffs it gives doesn’t solve the problem it has. Your suggestion solves the actual problem, then keeps going and also changes what the power does. Why? That’s just changing it for the sake of changing it.

[Steampunkette]

Changing the buffs that Serum gives doesn’t solve the problem it has. What it does is not the problem. The problem is that it has a ridiculously short duration for its enormous recharge time, and makes the pet you use it on useless for an equally ridiculous length of time, compared to its duration. All these suggestions to rework how the power functions at its core are missing the forest for the trees.

 

I suggested making it into a 0 endurance toggle with a 1 minute recharge rate.

 

What part of that doesn't deal with the short duration and enormous recharge time and the uselessness of a pet?

 

The uselessness would only happen when the toggle gets taken off... but that's only liable to happen when the pet is killed or between missions as team composition changes so... *shrug*

 

Like I said, changing the buffs it gives doesn’t solve the problem it has. Your suggestion solves the actual problem, then keeps going and also changes what the power does. Why? That’s just changing it for the sake of changing it.

 

oh! That... yeah.

 

I just never found the Serum power to be interesting or engaging. You slap it on the Commando on cooldown and that's the whole playstyle of it.

 

It needs some options is all.

[eldriyth]

There's really no need to violate the cottage rule on this power. Just reduce the recharge to something sane and take out the end crash. Maybe make its recharge unenhanceable like Strength of Will and it'd be a fine power.

 

Honestly I think the existence of the Aura IOs pretty much creates a need to change all the MM primaries that don't have an "extra pet" in this power slot. Otherwise Thugs, Demons, and Necro overshadow all the others.

 

If we *must* keep to the Cottage Rule (And frankly I really don't think we need to with powers this bad--and yes, Serum is AWFUL in it's current state) then you just make it a choose-a-power, which the game already supports. Leave Serum for the few people who might actually want it, and put in a proper pet power for the sane people. Whether it be an artillery strike or something else, as long as it takes Pet Sets.

 

Power sets are not balanced around IO sets.

 

And really, Serum is not that bad. It sucks because it has atrocious uptime and a painful crash, and those issues can be easily fixed.

 

Theyre not.... but after *so many years* it is a valid critique. Especially for the MM uniques.

 

But besides that can of worms, I agree that the recharge, uptime and crash make it horrendous. That said I feel that it should be able to be used on multiple mercs and not just the commando, as if it were on just 1 target at a time then why wouldn't it always be him?

 

It's a valid critique of the individual power and the set as a whole, but when petitioning for a change you pretty much have to disregard it.

 

 

No. You really don't. Mercs would be far better off with another pet like power that can use pet IOs to make them balanced with the other sets. Now, I have a Beastmastery/Cold at 50 and I can already feel how lackluster 3 total pets is compared to a necromancer/thug/demon MM.

[Galaxy Brain]

oh! That... yeah.

 

I just never found the Serum power to be interesting or engaging. You slap it on the Commando on cooldown and that's the whole playstyle of it.

 

It needs some options is all.

 

Options are fun to think up, but working with what we got (both with this power and with limited dev time) is what we need to do. That said, the core is still fun. What other mm set has a straight up 3rd pet buff?

 

No. You really don't. Mercs would be far better off with another pet like power that can use pet IOs to make them balanced with the other sets. Now, I have a Beastmastery/Cold at 50 and I can already feel how lackluster 3 total pets is compared to a necromancer/thug/demon MM.

 

This is a whole other topic, but my 2 cents here is that MMs are a unique case for IO balance given how incredibly impactful these particular IOs are for them as an archetype vs how impactful an IO is for say, a power or powerset.

[WumpusRat]

Serum is a garbage power. It really is. The buff is good, but the recharge on it is ridiculous. I believe it has the longest recharge of any powerset ability in the game.

 

What I'd much prefer to replace it with would be something like one of the following:

 

1) Air strike. Select a ground target location, and the MM takes out their walkie (same animation as summoning a pet) and after a second or two there's a large explosion in that area.

2) Deployable machine gun turret. Something like the gun drone from /devices, but stationary. A 4th pet for the merc set, and provides some extra firepower. Optionally, could be a flame-thrower turret, to give a damage type other than lethal.

3) "MEDIC!" Summons a second, temporary medic who starts spamming heals on you and your minions. +regen, heals, and ablative shield, then runs off.

4) Rocket launcher. Just replace it with the Munitions LRM missile power.

5) Squad tactics. A short-term buff that grants the entire squad maneuvers, tactics, and assault.

6) Reinforcements. Summons all the mercenary pets at once. Probably put this on a lengthy cooldown, like 15m or so.

[Redlynne]

Ah ... there's the problem.

 

Serum has a 1000 second recharge time ... due a typo.

The recharge time should have been 100 seconds.

 

Cryptic Studios apologizes for the error (that never got fixed).

 

/sarcasm

 

 

 

But that said, reducing the recharge on the power by a factor of 10 would seem to fit the bill for costing minimal Dev time to fix, while at the same time improving the power dramatically.  The irony is that even doing something this drastic wouldn't "overpower" Serum, due to how poorly balanced it is in its original state.

 

A more serious (simple!) modification would be to change the recharge from 1000 seconds down to 120 seconds ... or even 180 seconds if you want to put the recharge a little too far away from getting down to 60 second with enough enhancement values (and buffing for recharge).

 

Point being that Serum just needs (dramatically) better uptime to become less of a "garbage" power like it is with a 1000 second recharge.

[Vanden]

4) Rocket launcher. Just replace it with the Munitions LRM missile power.

 

I thought the idea was to make Serum good

 

Ah ... there's the problem.

 

Serum has a 1000 second recharge time ... due a typo.

The recharge time should have been 100 seconds.

 

Cryptic Studios apologizes for the error (that never got fixed).

 

/sarcasm

 

I don't think it's a mistake, that's the same recharge as on Unstoppable, Power Surge, Elude, et al. I think the idea was to give Mercs a grantable t9 defensive power. It just went through a few rounds of nerfs since it's ally granted, meant for pets, on an AT that doesn't typically have strong personal defense, etc.

[kelly Rocket]

It's a valid critique of the individual power and the set as a whole, but when petitioning for a change you pretty much have to disregard it.

 

Except when my proposal is demonstrably within the abilities of the admins (See Super Reflexes on Sentinels for evidence), and doesn't take anything away from anyone, since the new replacement power would be optional.

 

Whether it's technically possible is irrelevant, and no one said it was impossible. If you change one power solely to enable exploiting of set bonuses you're going against a cornerstone philosophy the game is built on. There is no reason Serum has to be replaced.

 

I think you need your reading comprehension upgraded. No replacement needed. Player can choose Serum still.

 

Either that or you don't actually understand the Cottage Rule.

 

You're not fooling anybody. The Cottage Rule isn't the cornerstone philosophy being violated by your suggestion, it's the balancing of sets around IOs that is. You just want a power that can accept pet IOs to use as a mule for the unique enhancements. Saying, "Oh, but Serum's still there for anyone who wants it, it's not being replaced," is a distinction without a difference; just being able to slot those IOs in some alternate power, even if it was as useless as Serum, makes it no choice at all which to pick.

I'm not trying to fool anyone. People are objecting to my proposal on the basis of the Cottage Rule, and I'm pointing out that the Cottage Rule is easily worked around in an environment where powers can be optional.

 

Furthermore, I'm not pretending I don't want a place where I could put some of the Aura IOs. Of course I do. I'd like Mercs to not be STRICTLY INFERIOR to all the sets that have such powers.

 

But I also think my proposal is much better than a buffed Serum. Serum is just not a good power, full stop. Mercs have shit damage. A power that gives them a damage buff just results in polished turds. I'd much rather have an area disruption attack that provides me with damage and mitigation than a useless buff for my pets that can't damage their way out of a wet paper sack even with a full Fulcrum Shift.

 

And you can *also* buff Serum at the same time, and leave both as options.

 

The fact that no one would take Serum at that point only proves my point that even a buffed Serum is garbage, however.

[Vanden]

I'm not trying to fool anyone. People are objecting to my proposal on the basis of the Cottage Rule, and I'm pointing out that the Cottage Rule is easily worked around in an environment where powers can be optional.

 

Furthermore, I'm not pretending I don't want a place where I could put some of the Aura IOs. Of course I do. I'd like Mercs to not be STRICTLY INFERIOR to all the sets that have such powers.

 

Well, maybe you're fooling yourself. Putting a different power alongside Serum might follow the letter of the Cottage Rule, but completely ignores the spirit of it.

 

If those two IOs that Mercs can't use are so powerful that the set is strictly inferior for the lack of them, the IOs are probably the outlier and should be nerfed. And I don't think anyone wants the IOs nerfed.

 

But I also think my proposal is much better than a buffed Serum. Serum is just not a good power, full stop. Mercs have shit damage. A power that gives them a damage buff just results in polished turds. I'd much rather have an area disruption attack that provides me with damage and mitigation than a useless buff for my pets that can't damage their way out of a wet paper sack even with a full Fulcrum Shift.

 

And you can *also* buff Serum at the same time, and leave both as options.

 

The fact that no one would take Serum at that point only proves my point that even a buffed Serum is garbage, however.

 

The damage buff is only one aspect of Serum, and it's a minor one at that. The main draw is that it halves the damage your Merc takes and gives them status protection, including to knockback.

[Redlynne]

And you can *also* buff Serum at the same time, and leave both as options.

 

Well ... you're certainly welcome to launch your own server and edit it the way you're talking about in order to make your dream come true ...

[Galaxy Brain]

Serum sucks as-is, but that doesn't mean it cant be adjusted to be worthwhile.

 

The concept of making super soldiers is very integral to the whole merc theme in like... all comics lol. Having it boost merc damage would be really nice on top of making them tankier.

[intussusceptor]

Yes, this needs to be tuned.

Suggestions: raise effect from one to two minutes, remove crash and half the recharge time.

 

[eldriyth]

Serum is a garbage power. It really is. The buff is good, but the recharge on it is ridiculous. I believe it has the longest recharge of any powerset ability in the game.

 

What I'd much prefer to replace it with would be something like one of the following:

 

1) Air strike. Select a ground target location, and the MM takes out their walkie (same animation as summoning a pet) and after a second or two there's a large explosion in that area.

2) Deployable machine gun turret. Something like the gun drone from /devices, but stationary. A 4th pet for the merc set, and provides some extra firepower. Optionally, could be a flame-thrower turret, to give a damage type other than lethal.

3) "MEDIC!" Summons a second, temporary medic who starts spamming heals on you and your minions. +regen, heals, and ablative shield, then runs off.

4) Rocket launcher. Just replace it with the Munitions LRM missile power.

5) Squad tactics. A short-term buff that grants the entire squad maneuvers, tactics, and assault.

6) Reinforcements. Summons all the mercenary pets at once. Probably put this on a lengthy cooldown, like 15m or so.

 

Mobile Gunner Turret would be awesome. Would also allow for IO pet sets, pushing the total sets allowed to 4 up from 3 for mercs. This would make mercs way more balanced with other MM sets.

[kelly Rocket]

I'm not trying to fool anyone. People are objecting to my proposal on the basis of the Cottage Rule, and I'm pointing out that the Cottage Rule is easily worked around in an environment where powers can be optional.

 

Furthermore, I'm not pretending I don't want a place where I could put some of the Aura IOs. Of course I do. I'd like Mercs to not be STRICTLY INFERIOR to all the sets that have such powers.

 

Well, maybe you're fooling yourself. Putting a different power alongside Serum might follow the letter of the Cottage Rule, but completely ignores the spirit of it.

 

If those two IOs that Mercs can't use are so powerful that the set is strictly inferior for the lack of them, the IOs are probably the outlier and should be nerfed. And I don't think anyone wants the IOs nerfed.

 

Actually I think you're unclear on the spirit of the Cottage Rule. The purpose of the Cottage Rule was always just to not leave existing players feeling bait-and-switched. As long as the original power remains and is not taken away from players who liked it, the Cottage Rule is respected in both letter and spirit. It never had anything to do with balancing.

[Vanden]

I'm not trying to fool anyone. People are objecting to my proposal on the basis of the Cottage Rule, and I'm pointing out that the Cottage Rule is easily worked around in an environment where powers can be optional.

 

Furthermore, I'm not pretending I don't want a place where I could put some of the Aura IOs. Of course I do. I'd like Mercs to not be STRICTLY INFERIOR to all the sets that have such powers.

 

Well, maybe you're fooling yourself. Putting a different power alongside Serum might follow the letter of the Cottage Rule, but completely ignores the spirit of it.

 

If those two IOs that Mercs can't use are so powerful that the set is strictly inferior for the lack of them, the IOs are probably the outlier and should be nerfed. And I don't think anyone wants the IOs nerfed.

 

Actually I think you're unclear on the spirit of the Cottage Rule. The purpose of the Cottage Rule was always just to not leave existing players feeling bait-and-switched. As long as the original power remains and is not taken away from players who liked it, the Cottage Rule is respected in both letter and spirit. It never had anything to do with balancing.

 

And what is the difference, exactly, to a player who wants Serum but knows it's bad, if the devs simply give up on it and put another power in its place, mutually exclusive with it? If that's the approach they take to add the utility to Mercs that Serum is failing to provide?

[jack_nomind]

Actually I think you're unclear on the spirit of the Cottage Rule. The purpose of the Cottage Rule was always just to not leave existing players feeling bait-and-switched. As long as the original power remains and is not taken away from players who liked it, the Cottage Rule is respected in both letter and spirit. It never had anything to do with balancing.

 

And what is the difference, exactly, to a player who wants Serum but knows it's bad, if the devs simply give up on it and put another power in its place, mutually exclusive with it? If that's the approach they take to add the utility to Mercs that Serum is failing to provide?

 

I'm gonna make some friends here and say, er... you're both mistaken?  Cottaging is about preventing drift -- it's a rule of procedure that stopped the Paragon developers from 'changing their mind' about one power at a time, leading eventually to sets that look and play nothing like their original implementation.  It's a lot less about a per-power, keep things as they are system (obviously players are going to choose to respec or even have to respec after merely 'numerical' changes, too) as it is about a 'don't rebuild the town after every strong breeze.'  If that analogy makes sense.  Not all games have a similar design rule and many games do fine without it, but it is something that 'flavored' CoH.

 

10/9 sets do evade the cottage rule in its literal sense, but they undercut the spirit of it because there's no bright line guideline to stop 11/9, 15/9, 27/9 sets -- which would be, if anything, worse than the situations cottage rule is supposed to prevent. 

 

I'm ultimately (I think) with kelly here.  I think this is a situation where cottaging is warranted because the arguments here convince me the power is under-performing in a practical sense and at a design sense (since it affects the meta-balancing of IO sets.  Even with the argument that "sets aren't balanced around IOs," which I find dubious, IOs are undoubtedly balanced around sets -- new pet or MM IO sets will have to account for different MMs having significant differences in even the ability to slot the sets).  I also don't play MMs often at all, so that's my disinterested opinion.  But I do have to say -- cottage or don't cottage, but don't 10/9 just to evade the literal "rule" and destroy its intent.