Regen Brutes / Scrappers

[Crossie]

I have tried many many times to build out a regen scrapper or brute and end up being so squish, I end up giving up on the build.  I'm sure there is one or two viable builds available that makes it somewhat viable but regen just seems so underwhelming.

 

Here's my suggestion.  Would it be possible to apply 50% of damage received upfront to a regen build and 50% over the span of 10 seconds in the from of a Damage over Time?  If the enemy dies, the remaining damage you would have received turns into a heal (kind of like illusion pet damage).  This would make playing this build a battle of inertia and mitigate huge spikes of damage with the ability to respond to it through various self heals while NEEDING to focus on killing fast fast or DoTs will exceed self heals.  

 

 

[aethereal]

It's not possible under current powers code.

[Doc_Scorpion]

2 hours ago, Crossie said:

I have tried many many times to build out a regen scrapper or brute and end up being so squish, I end up giving up on the build.  I'm sure there is one or two viable builds available that makes it somewhat viable but regen just seems so underwhelming.

What difficulty settings do you play on?  I imagine there's builds out there for maxed out difficulty, but at base difficulty it plays just fine and with a little practice you can bump that up somewhat.  Personally, I enjoy Regen and it's "walking the tightrope" playstyle.  But that's decidedly not for everybody.
 

 

2 hours ago, Crossie said:

This would make playing this build a battle of inertia and mitigate huge spikes of damage with the ability to respond to it through various self heals while NEEDING to focus on killing fast fast or DoTs will exceed self heals.  

That's how Regen already plays - your basic strategy is to kill arrest faster than you're knocked down.  (Which really isn't so different from any other defensive secondary.)  The trick to playing it however, is to control how fast that damage comes in.

I'd be the first to admit that's there's a couple of things about Regen that could stand to be fixed/buffed...  But there's nothing wrong fundamentally wrong with the set.  What you're asking for is a fundamental change, and a complete change in playstyle.

[Crossie]

13 minutes ago, Doc_Scorpion said:

What difficulty settings do you play on?  I imagine there's builds out there for maxed out difficulty, but at base difficulty it plays just fine and with a little practice you can bump that up somewhat.  Personally, I enjoy Regen and it's "walking the tightrope" playstyle.  But that's decidedly not for everybody.
 

 

That's how Regen already plays - your basic strategy is to kill arrest faster than you're knocked down.  (Which really isn't so different from any other defensive secondary.)  The trick to playing it however, is to control how fast that damage comes in.

I'd be the first to admit that's there's a couple of things about Regen that could stand to be fixed/buffed...  But there's nothing wrong fundamentally wrong with the set.  What you're asking for is a fundamental change, and a complete change in playstyle.

Yes

[biostem]

9 hours ago, Crossie said:

Here's my suggestion.  Would it be possible to apply 50% of damage received upfront to a regen build and 50% over the span of 10 seconds in the from of a Damage over Time?  If the enemy dies, the remaining damage you would have received turns into a heal (kind of like illusion pet damage).  This would make playing this build a battle of inertia and mitigate huge spikes of damage with the ability to respond to it through various self heals while NEEDING to focus on killing fast fast or DoTs will exceed self heals.  

The closest would be to do something like what sentinels get in their version of regen - some absorb.  There isn't really a way to "delay" damage.  The problem is that regen is a very binary set - either your regen is greater than the incoming damage or you die.  Really, the only way to work around this is to apply debuffs or hard/soft control effects to reduce the rate of that incoming damage.  Another option would be to have various regen power stack on even more extra HP - increase that HP pool, and you inherently increase the regen rate and widen that margin for error...

[A.I.D.A.]

I have a Psi-Melee / Regen and I've had tons of fun with her. She never once felt terrible or squishy, and I'm normally a very Super Reflex kinda girl.

 

9 hours ago, biostem said:

. . .

either your regen is greater than the incoming damage or you die.

. . .

 ^ I realize this one is not the OP, but this quoted point is logically unsound. If incoming damage is greater than your regen, you are still mitigating your regen worth of incoming DPS and that helps you empty the enemy lifebar before the enemy empties yours. Regen has plenty of clicks for these situations, both in terms of max HP buffs and click-heals.

 

Regen only feels bad to people who want it to play like a more typical secondary. If that's what you want, have you considered playing Willpower instead?

[TheZag]

Regens shortcoming when compared to other armors was explained very well in another topic.  The short version was if you take 100 damage in 10 seconds and regen 90 hp in that 10 seconds you take a net loss of 10 hp.  If you take 200 damage in that same 10 seconds,  you still regen 90 hp and take a net loss of 110 hp.

 

If you have 90% resistance to 100 damage over 10 seconds,  you take a net loss of 10 hp.  If you take 200 damage in that same time,  you still resist 90% and take a total of 20 damage.

 

So doubling the incoming damage did double the damage taken by the resistance character but the regen character took over 10 times as much (net) damage.

 

This leads to people saying it plays great at *insert difficulty here*.  But only a slight tweak harder and the set is suddenly suffering from a huge spike in received damage.  Resist and defense based armors have a much more gradual increase in received damage as opposed to the 'i cant ever be killed to it takes all my cooldowns to survive to no matter what i do im going to die' that regen is subject to over just a few small increases in difficulty.

 

It will probably take a larger change than is possible while still maintaining regens identity to address the damage spike that occurs when incoming damage outpaces health regen.  The clicks let you push it further but damage above that is essentially 100%.  Mitigation armors still have mitigation,  regen is more it works or it doesnt.

 

[biostem]

9 hours ago, Aida LaCanthe said:

I realize this one is not the OP, but this quoted point is logically unsound. If incoming damage is greater than your regen, you are still mitigating your regen worth of incoming DPS and that helps you empty the enemy lifebar before the enemy empties yours. Regen has plenty of clicks for these situations, both in terms of max HP buffs and click-heals.

I should have clarified that I meant if you can out-heal the incoming damage you live, otherwise you die, instead of just using the term "regen".  Either way, if you cannot out-mitigate the incoming DPS, you die, be that through regen alone or regen+click heals.

[Troo]

On 2/7/2023 at 8:09 AM, Crossie said:

This would make playing this build a battle of inertia and mitigate huge spikes of damage with the ability to respond to it through various self heals while NEEDING to focus on killing fast fast or DoTs will exceed self heals. 

 

I can see what you are suggesting though it seems similar to what I'm already doing. The damage over time being the additional attacks by targets if not defeated.

 

Question: Are you using Dull Pain for the +Max HP?

 

 

On 2/7/2023 at 8:09 AM, Crossie said:

..and end up being so squish, I end up giving up on the build.

 

My favorite character is an Energy Melee/Regeneration Stalker. I have played Regeneration on a number of high level Brute combos, never on a Scrapper.

 

Regeneration rewards timing and situational awareness. Keeping track of different incoming debuffs and different activations. It is more work. It plays different and is not for everyone.

A regen can regularly engage 1 or 2 times the target cap solo. The HP bar jumps all over the place. I love it.

 

There are lots of ways to play a Regeneration character. Common are Reactive and Proactive styles.

 

  Proactive being the use of Regeneration powers before they are needed. This is in my opinion is a safer way to play.

• perma Dull Pain (keeping it active at all times for the +Max HP)

• Instant Healing before a big encounter

• MoG for alphas

  Reactive being the use of regen powers at semi optimal points to maximize each use. This is in my opinion the razor's edge and squeezes a bit more out of it.

• Dull Pain at 60-70% health to maximize on demand healing

• Instant Healing as an 'oh shit'

Regardless having a plan to get out of trouble or at least having a feel for when it might not be a good idea to queue up a 3 second attack is again rewarded by Regeneration.

 

Here's a Brute build with survivability in mind: lvl 35 IOs and non-superior ATOs that has perma Dull Pain, approaches perma Hasten, has 43% melee def, and some res.

Lots of room to improve with upgraded enhancements and incarnates.

 

Brute (Katana - Regeneration) lvl 35s.mxd

 

Other tidbits:

Spoiler

If not familiar with using a power like Moment of Glory a player might struggle with Regeneration.

It's just a moment of being un-kill-able, it can also be used for it's endurance recovery and status protection components. It is not only capped Def and Res.

It can be chained with other similar powers (Demonic Aura, Rune of Protection, etc)

 

Before getting MoG, Dull Pain is a superstar especially on the Brutes. +Max HP and potentially a huge heal.

 

The Stalker has sooo many tools to deal with incoming damage user error is the only explanation for a defeat. Stuns, IH, Placate, MoG, and on and on and well before level 50.

 

Chasing lots of defense on a Regen could be a trap as they have no Defense Debuff Resistance (DDR)

 

Edited February 8, 2023 by Troo

[A.I.D.A.]

5 hours ago, biostem said:

I should have clarified that I meant if you can out-heal the incoming damage you live, otherwise you die, instead of just using the term "regen".  Either way, if you cannot out-mitigate the incoming DPS, you die, be that through regen alone or regen+click heals.

 

Even if you're facing 200 incoming DPS with 175/s regen, you can still kill them faster than they kill you. It's not as simple as "regen more than incoming DPS or die guaranteed." Your outgoing DPS is also a factor. That's what I was trying to say.

[biostem]

Just now, Aida LaCanthe said:

Even if you're facing 200 incoming DPS with 175/s regen, you can still kill them faster than they kill you. It's not as simple as "regen more than incoming DPS or die guaranteed." Your outgoing DPS is also a factor. That's what I was trying to say.

Your outgoing DPS effectively reduces incoming DPS, which goes back to the cycle of your healing outpacing incoming damage.  the problem is the nearly every mob at least gets 1 shot off before they die, and therein  lies the rub - Even with the extra HP from dull pain, it may not be enough.  For me, the trick is how to better equip regen with tools to address that, while staying within the concept of the set...

[A.I.D.A.]

For me, the trick is that regen is fine and fun and doesn't need power creep.

[biostem]

5 minutes ago, Aida LaCanthe said:

regen is fine

I mean, many ATs that have no armor set at all can get by.  The question isn't whether regen is "fine" - the question is if it is up to par with other alternatives.  I have zero doubt that you can make regen work.  I would like it be up there with the likes of willpower or invulnerability.

 

5 minutes ago, Aida LaCanthe said:

fun

If you find the set fun to play, more power to you, but that isn't necessarily an objective metric to go by...

 

5 minutes ago, Aida LaCanthe said:

doesn't need power creep

Is bringing a set in line with other such sets power creep, though?  Improving something to be on par with alternatives is not necessarily "power creep".

Edited February 9, 2023 by biostem

[Rudra]

7 minutes ago, biostem said:

Is bringing a set in line with other such sets power creep, though?  Improving something to be on par with alternatives is not necessarily "power creep".

You have to be careful with reasoning like that. I am not saying this is such a case, but that line of reasoning is thrown around to bring armor sets up on par with like Bio. "Is it really power creep if all you are doing is bringing parity between the sets?" In some cases? Most definitely.

[biostem]

Just now, Rudra said:

"Is it really power creep if all you are doing is bringing parity between the sets?" In some cases? Most definitely.

Power sets, while they certainly can bring different things to the table, should be on par with one-another.  If they aren't then something is seriously wrong and game balance ceases to be a driving force between such decisions.  In your given example of bio armor, for instance, maybe it needs to be dropped down a couple pegs...

[Rudra]

27 minutes ago, biostem said:

Power sets, while they certainly can bring different things to the table, should be on par with one-another.  If they aren't then something is seriously wrong and game balance ceases to be a driving force between such decisions.  In your given example of bio armor, for instance, maybe it needs to be dropped down a couple pegs...

Oh, I most definitely agree. Bio probably needs to get hit hard with a nerf stick. Maybe even a nerf cannon. Doesn't change my point about being careful with that argument.

 

One thing you may want to consider? I hate citing CO, but one thing CO does handle pretty well is regeneration. They have a base regeneration value that scales up as your character takes damage, up to a set limit. What if regeneration in CoX also had a sliding regeneration scale that increases your rate of regeneration based on how close to death your character was?

 

I don't play regeneration characters, so I don't have a stake in this. Just throwing out a possible thought.

 

(Edit: Or take a page from Super Reflxes and add in some scaling resistance as your health nose dives?)

Edited February 9, 2023 by Rudra

[biostem]

1 minute ago, Rudra said:

What if regeneration in CoX also had a sliding regeneration scale that increases your rate of regeneration based on how close to death your character was?

That's what gamma boost from radiation armor does - lower health, higher regen, high health, higher recovery.  It could be similar to SR's sliding DR buff...

[Captain Fabulous]

On 2/7/2023 at 8:33 PM, biostem said:

The closest would be to do something like what sentinels get in their version of regen - some absorb.  There isn't really a way to "delay" damage.  The problem is that regen is a very binary set - either your regen is greater than the incoming damage or you die.  Really, the only way to work around this is to apply debuffs or hard/soft control effects to reduce the rate of that incoming damage.  Another option would be to have various regen power stack on even more extra HP - increase that HP pool, and you inherently increase the regen rate and widen that margin for error...

You could do what the OP proposed here except for the "if the enemy dies..." part. That bit I don't think is possible. You basically give whatever power you want to have this ability 50% damage reduction and a self-DoT over X number of seconds for the other 50%. You'd probably do it as a pseudo pet.

I'm not saying I like the idea, but it could theoretically be done.

Edited February 9, 2023 by Captain Fabulous

[Rudra]

Here's a weird thought:

 

What if regeneration scaled like Fury? The more attacks that hit you within a set period of time, the more you regenerate. That would mean that for "normal" play, regeneration wouldn't really play any different than it does now. However, as attacks exceed a set threshold, it scales up.

 

Edit: So maybe whatever the expected number of attacks per second might be for normal play is the threshold, and regeneration scales up incrementally for each magnitude of that value reached?

Edited February 9, 2023 by Rudra

[biostem]

1 minute ago, Captain Fabulous said:

You could do what the OP proposed here except for the "if the enemy dies..." part. That bit I don't think is possible. You basically give whatever power you want to have this ability 50% damage reduction and a self-DoT over X number of seconds for the other 50%.

I'm not saying I like the idea, but it could theoretically be done.

You'd have to also add some sort of self-heal restriction as well, which I think handicaps the set more than it'd help.  Maybe turn MoG into a power that ignores recharge reduction, but is available much more often, or add some absorb to reconstruction or another power.  I'm not sure where, exactly it'd fit best, but there are tools at our disposal...

[Captain Fabulous]

1 minute ago, Rudra said:

Here's a weird thought:

 

What if regeneration scaled like Fury? The more attacks ythat hit you within a set period of time, the more you regenerate. That would mean that for "normal" play, regeneration wouldn't really play any different than it does now. However, as attacks exceed a set threshold, it scales up.

The problem with stacking more and more +regen is that it has diminishing returns. And there are critters that can significantly debuff regen. The set needs other kinds of mitigation tools that aren't directly tied to +regen, such as absorption, +HP, and HoTs -- still thematic to the set, but not putting all your eggs in one basket.

[Captain Fabulous]

5 minutes ago, biostem said:

You'd have to also add some sort of self-heal restriction as well, which I think handicaps the set more than it'd help.  Maybe turn MoG into a power that ignores recharge reduction, but is available much more often, or add some absorb to reconstruction or another power.  I'm not sure where, exactly it'd fit best, but there are tools at our disposal...

Why would there need to be a self-heal restriction? The DoT is gonna keep going whether you heal yourself or not. You're not negating the incoming damage, just delaying a portion of it. Integration should definitely have +absorb. I'd also like to see Fast Healing get some +HP. Make Instant Healing a scaling HoT toggle. Make MoG 30 seconds with the same CD and halve the protection it gives. There's a lot that can be done to improve the set. There just needs to be a will by the devs to do so.

[Rudra]

10 minutes ago, Captain Fabulous said:

The problem with stacking more and more +regen is that it has diminishing returns. And there are critters that can significantly debuff regen. The set needs other kinds of mitigation tools that aren't directly tied to +regen, such as absorption, +HP, and HoTs -- still thematic to the set, but not putting all your eggs in one basket.

So you replace +regen in the Fury scaling approach to +absorb. Not that big a deal to me. As I said, I don't play regeneration characters. (I often play willpower characters though. I like the mix of approaches to survival.)

[Captain Fabulous]

4 minutes ago, Rudra said:

So you replace +regen in the Fury scaling approach to +absorb. Not that big a deal to me. As I said, I don't play regeneration characters. (I often play willpower characters though. I like the mix of approaches to survival.)

Yeah, I'm not against some kind of scaling absorb or HoT. I've suggested it a number of times for Instant Healing. Just not more +regen. The set needs diversification and some layered protection like other sets get, but without dipping into +defense or +resistance.

[twozerofoxtrot]

You wanna really juice up Regen, break the game, and make it feel even more thematically like the "Wolverine" set?

 

Add to Fast Healing a passive Victory Rush-like function that automatically restores a chunk of health based on the defeated mob value.

 

Perks:

1) Doesn't take away from what Regen players love about the set

2) Restores what the set 'lost' from the early days, where it was the low downtime option. 

3) Available early, providing core identity to the set while boosting a power of debatable utility. 

4) Doesn't lower DPS output with new clicks, but stays differentiated from Willpower. 

5) Encourages violent play.

 

Drawbacks:

1) None, this is my own suggestion so it's perfect. Nuff said. 😤

Edited February 9, 2023 by twozerofoxtrot
My suggestion wasn't so perfect after all.