Dual Pistols/Ninjitsu - What do you think?

[oddrobin]

Hearing a lot of good things about Sentinels lately got me itching to build one. I did some research and landed on Dual Pistols for my primary. I love the animations for it, but it always felt lackluster when I tried it as a blaster. My research assures me DP plays better as a Sentinel. Then I waffled between Super Reflexes and Ninjutsu secondaries. In my heart I knew Ninjitsu was the look and feel I wanted, but 95% of everything I have been reading recommended SR over Nin. 

I am not experienced creating builds from scratch, so I found some posted builds to mashup and tweak into what I think is a solid DP/Nin Sentinel. Here are my starting builds:

• DP/SR by SmalltalkJava: https://forums.homecomingservers.com/topic/30151-dual-pistals-super-reflexes-sentinal-build/#comment-403811
• Water/Nin by EndOla: https://forums.homecomingservers.com/topic/21316-waterninj-soft-cap-and-procs-build-advice/#comment-244629
 

Spoiler

And this is what I put together:

This Hero build was built using Mids Reborn 3.4.6
https://github.com/LoadedCamel/MidsReborn

Click this DataLink to open the build!

 

Skibo: Level 49 Natural Sentinel
Primary Power Set: Dual Pistols
Secondary Power Set: Ninjitsu
Power Pool: Leaping
Power Pool: Fighting
Power Pool: Speed
Power Pool: Leadership

Hero Profile:
Level 1: Dual Wield -- Apc-Dmg/EndRdx(A), HO:Centri(3), ImpSwf-Dam%(3), FrcFdb-Rechg%(5), ExpStr-Dam%(5), GldJvl-Dam/End/Rech(7)
Level 1: Ninja Reflexes -- RedFrt-Def/EndRdx(A), RedFrt-Def/Rchg(7), RedFrt-EndRdx/Rchg(11), RedFrt-Def/EndRdx/Rchg(11), RedFrt-Def(13), RedFrt-EndRdx(13)
Level 2: Danger Sense -- Srn-Def/EndRdx(A), Srn-Def/Rchg(15), Srn-EndRdx/Rchg(15), Srn-Def/EndRdx/Rchg(17), Srn-Def(17), Srn-EndRdx(19)
Level 4: Shinobi-Iri -- Srn-Def/EndRdx(A), Srn-Def/Rchg(19), Srn-Def/EndRdx/Rchg(21), Srn-Def(21), Srn-EndRdx(23)
Level 6: Suppressive Fire -- Apc-Dam%(A), UnbCns-Dam%(23), GldJvl-Dam/End/Rech(25), GldNet-Dam%(25), NrnSht-Dam%(27), GhsWdwEmb-Dam%(27)
Level 8: Swap Ammo 
Level 10: Kuji-In Rin -- RechRdx-I(A)
Level 12: Bullet Rain -- SprSntWar-Acc/Dmg(A), SprSntWar-Dmg/Rchg(29), SprSntWar-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(29), SprSntWar-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(31), SprSntWar-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(31), SprSntWar-Rchg/+Absorb(31)
Level 14: Combat Jumping -- RedFrt-Def/EndRdx(A), Krm-ResKB(48)
Level 16: Seishinteki Kyoyo -- RechRdx-I(A), EndMod-I(33)
Level 18: Executioner's Shot -- ShlBrk-%Dam(A), Apc-Dmg(33), GldJvl-Dam/End/Rech(33), TchofLadG-%Dam(34), ImpSwf-Dam%(34), AchHee-ResDeb%(34)
Level 20: Kick -- Mk'Bit-Dam%(A)
Level 22: Hasten -- RechRdx-I(A), RechRdx-I(36)
Level 24: Maneuvers -- LucoftheG-Def/EndRdx(A), LucoftheG-Def(36), LucoftheG-Def/Rchg+(36)
Level 26: Tough -- StdPrt-ResDam/Def+(A), GldArm-3defTpProc(37), UnbGrd-ResDam(37), UnbGrd-ResDam/EndRdx(37), UnbGrd-ResDam/EndRdx/Rchg(39), UnbGrd-Max HP%(39)
Level 28: Kuji-In Sha -- RechRdx-I(A), Heal-I(39)
Level 30: Weave -- Srn-Def/EndRdx(A), Srn-Def/Rchg(40), Srn-EndRdx/Rchg(40), Srn-Def/EndRdx/Rchg(46), Srn-Def(47)
Level 32: Hail of Bullets -- FuroftheG-ResDeb%(A), Arm-Dmg/Rchg(40), Arm-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(42), Arm-Acc/Rchg(42), Arm-Dmg/EndRdx(42), Arm-Dam%(43)
Level 35: Bo Ryaku -- GldArm-ResDam(A), GldArm-Res/Rech/End(48), GldArm-RechEnd(48), StdPrt-ResKB(49)
Level 38: Kuji-In Retsu -- RechRdx-I(A)
Level 41: Tactics -- AdjTrg-ToHit(A), AdjTrg-ToHit/Rchg(43), AdjTrg-ToHit/EndRdx/Rchg(43), AdjTrg-EndRdx/Rchg(45), AdjTrg-ToHit/EndRdx(45), GssSynFr--Build%(45)
Level 44: Pistols -- Apc-Dmg/Rchg(A), Apc-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(46), Apc-Acc/Rchg(46)
Level 47: Victory Rush -- PrfShf-End%(A)
Level 49: Assault -- EndRdx-I(A)
Level 1: Opportunity 
Level 1: Brawl -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Sprint -- Qck-EndRdx/RunSpd(A)
Level 2: Rest -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Swift -- Run-I(A)
Level 1: Hurdle -- Jump-I(A)
Level 1: Health -- Pnc-Heal/+End(A), Mrc-Rcvry+(9)
Level 1: Stamina -- PrfShf-End%(A), PwrTrns-+Heal(9), EndMod-I(47)
Level 8: Chemical Ammunition 
Level 8: Cryo Ammunition 
Level 8: Incendiary Ammunition 
------------

 

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I'm not a numbers person, but the bars look good to me. I'm just starting this character, so I don't yet know if it plays well in practice. I'm still considering if I'd rather have a travel power than Victory Rush. I'm totally open to suggestions! Thanks for taking a look.

 

 

Edited March 9 by oddrobin

[StrikerFox]

I like the stats you got for your build but some of the slotting just seems off. For example:

 

Steadfast and Gladiator's Armor IO sets are split between Tough and Bo Ryaku. 4 slotting GA into Bo Ryaku; 2 slotting Steadfast into Tough, would provide a small recovery and T/P +res buffs. 

 

Standard IOs in Stamina, Kuji-In Sha and Seishinteki Kyoyo. Slotting them with IOs with set bonuses would provide better overall stats.

 

The dam/range hamio in Dual Wield is odd. All your DP attacks have a range of 66' except Dual Wield, which is 78' due to the hamio.

 

Tactics feels overslotted. Slots could be better used elsewhere. Like adding a Shield Wall, Reactive Defense and Numina's uniques. Also a Kismet if you want to make up the lost +tohit.

 

There are probably better IO sets than Serendipity.

 

The build doesn't have the ATO2 set (Though I don't know if it's needed).

 

Some of the attacks have 0 accuracy. 

 

There's probably some other stuff but I'm falling asleep.

[oddrobin]

15 hours ago, StrikerFox said:

I like the stats you got for your build but some of the slotting just seems off. For example:

 

Steadfast and Gladiator's Armor IO sets are split between Tough and Bo Ryaku. 4 slotting GA into Bo Ryaku; 2 slotting Steadfast into Tough, would provide a small recovery and T/P +res buffs. 

 

Standard IOs in Stamina, Kuji-In Sha and Seishinteki Kyoyo. Slotting them with IOs with set bonuses would provide better overall stats.

 

The dam/range hamio in Dual Wield is odd. All your DP attacks have a range of 66' except Dual Wield, which is 78' due to the hamio.

 

Tactics feels overslotted. Slots could be better used elsewhere. Like adding a Shield Wall, Reactive Defense and Numina's uniques. Also a Kismet if you want to make up the lost +tohit.

 

There are probably better IO sets than Serendipity.

 

The build doesn't have the ATO2 set (Though I don't know if it's needed).

 

Some of the attacks have 0 accuracy. 

 

There's probably some other stuff but I'm falling asleep.

 

Thanks for the feedback! I think I meant to redo the standard IOs in those slots, but I got tired and forgot about them. I'm always up for more tinkering!

 

[oddrobin]

The tweaks I made after taking the feedback  @StrikerFox  gave me into consideration gave me these results:

 

The good:

• Resistance is increased
• Regeneration is increased
• Max HP is increased
• End Recovery is increased
• Haste is increased
• ToHit is increased
• Status resistance is increased

The not good:

• End Use is slightly increased
• Accuracy is less: 48% to 39%
• Defense is negligibly less
  • Melee: 102.22% down to 101.53%
  • Ranged: 96.47% down to 93.56%
  • AoE: 97.72% down to 93.56%

What should be done to increase accuracy? Thanks!

 

Here's the updated build:

This Hero build was built using Mids Reborn 3.4.6
https://github.com/LoadedCamel/MidsReborn

Click this DataLink to open the build!

Skibo: Level 50 Natural Sentinel
Primary Power Set: Dual Pistols
Secondary Power Set: Ninjitsu
Power Pool: Leaping
Power Pool: Fighting
Power Pool: Speed
Power Pool: Leadership

Hero Profile:
Level 1: Dual Wield -- Apc-Dmg/EndRdx(A), HO:Nucle(3), ImpSwf-Dam%(3), FrcFdb-Rechg%(5), ExpStr-Dam%(5), GldJvl-Dam/End/Rech(7)
Level 1: Ninja Reflexes -- LucoftheG-Def/Rchg+(A), RedFrt-Def/Rchg(7), RedFrt-EndRdx/Rchg(11), RedFrt-Def/EndRdx/Rchg(11), RedFrt-Def(13), RedFrt-EndRdx(13)
Level 2: Danger Sense -- LucoftheG-Def/EndRdx(A), LucoftheG-Def/Rchg(15), LucoftheG-EndRdx/Rchg(15), LucoftheG-Def/EndRdx/Rchg(17), LucoftheG-Def(17), LucoftheG-Def/Rchg+(19)
Level 4: Shinobi-Iri -- Ksm-ToHit+(A), Ksm-Def/EndRdx(19), ShlWal-Def/EndRdx(21), ShlWal-Def/EndRdx/Rchg(21), ShlWal-Def(23), ShlWal-ResDam/Re TP(50)
Level 6: Suppressive Fire -- Apc-Dam%(A), UnbCns-Dam%(23), GldJvl-Dam/End/Rech(25), GldNet-Dam%(25), NrnSht-Dam%(27), GhsWdwEmb-Dam%(27)
Level 8: Swap Ammo 
Level 10: Kuji-In Rin -- RechRdx-I(A)
Level 12: Bullet Rain -- SprSntWar-Acc/Dmg(A), SprSntWar-Dmg/Rchg(29), SprSntWar-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(29), SprSntWar-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(31), SprSntWar-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(31), SprSntWar-Rchg/+Absorb(31)
Level 14: Combat Jumping -- RedFrt-Def/EndRdx(A), Krm-ResKB(45), LucoftheG-Def/Rchg+(48)
Level 16: Seishinteki Kyoyo -- RechRdx-I(A), EndMod-I(33)
Level 18: Executioner's Shot -- ShlBrk-%Dam(A), Apc-Dmg(33), GldJvl-Dam/End/Rech(33), TchofLadG-%Dam(34), ImpSwf-Dam%(34), AchHee-ResDeb%(34)
Level 20: Kick -- Mk'Bit-Dam%(A)
Level 22: Hasten -- RechRdx-I(A), RechRdx-I(36)
Level 24: Maneuvers -- LucoftheG-Def/EndRdx(A), LucoftheG-Def(36), LucoftheG-Def/Rchg+(36)
Level 26: Tough -- GldArm-3defTpProc(A), UnbGrd-Rchg/ResDam(37), UnbGrd-ResDam(37), UnbGrd-ResDam/EndRdx(37), UnbGrd-ResDam/EndRdx/Rchg(39), UnbGrd-Max HP%(39)
Level 28: Kuji-In Sha -- RechRdx-I(A), Heal-I(39)
Level 30: Weave -- LucoftheG-Def/Rchg+(A), Rct-ResDam%(40), Rct-Def/EndRdx(40)
Level 32: Hail of Bullets -- FuroftheG-ResDeb%(A), Arm-Dmg/Rchg(40), Arm-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(42), Arm-Acc/Rchg(42), Arm-Dmg/EndRdx(42), Arm-Dam%(43)
Level 35: Bo Ryaku -- StdPrt-ResDam/EndRdx(A), StdPrt-ResKB(45), StdPrt-ResDam/Def+(46), GldArm-ResDam(48), GldArm-End/Res(48), GldArm-Res/Rech/End(49)
Level 38: Kuji-In Retsu -- RechRdx-I(A)
Level 41: Tactics -- AdjTrg-ToHit(A), AdjTrg-ToHit/Rchg(43), AdjTrg-ToHit/EndRdx(43), GssSynFr--Build%(45)
Level 44: Pistols -- Apc-Dmg/Rchg(A), Apc-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(46), Apc-Acc/Rchg(46)
Level 47: Victory Rush -- PrfShf-End%(A)
Level 49: Assault -- EndRdx-I(A)
Level 1: Opportunity 
Level 1: Brawl -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Sprint -- Qck-EndRdx/RunSpd(A)
Level 2: Rest -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Swift -- Run-I(A)
Level 1: Hurdle -- Jump-I(A)
Level 1: Health -- Pnc-Heal/+End(A), Mrc-Rcvry+(9)
Level 1: Stamina -- PrfShf-End%(A), PrfShf-EndMod(9), PwrTrns-+Heal(47)
Level 8: Chemical Ammunition 
Level 8: Cryo Ammunition 
Level 8: Incendiary Ammunition 
------------

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Edited March 9 by oddrobin

[StrikerFox]

1 hour ago, oddrobin said:

• End Use is slightly increased
• Accuracy is less: 48% to 39%
• Defense is negligibly less
  • Melee: 102.22% down to 101.53%
  • Ranged: 96.47% down to 93.56%
  • AoE: 97.72% down to 93.56%

What should be done to increase accuracy? Thanks!

 

Looks like your build has all the powers active. Most people check stats with only toggles and powers that are perma (Or close to perma) active.

 

For example, Kuji-In Sha on your build lasts for 3 minutes but, has around a 7 minute recharge. So it's up time is about 40%. The 93-102% defense numbers will only be that high 2/5ths of the time.

 

In Tactics there are 2 circles to activate. One displays the Tactic's +tohit buff; second displays the Gaussian's BU buff. So turn Tactics on, BU proc off, since you won't receive the BU buff all the time.

 

Also turned off Victory Rush and Hail of Bullets. Apparently HoB provides a 5 second def buff when used.

 

Procs are pretty awesome but the best way to build accuracy is from set bonuses. Can include Incarnates that improve acc. 

 

[oddrobin]

oooOOOOooooohhhhh!!!!!!! 

 

This is a whole new way to see things, and it makes sense I would want to know what the stats are without the temporary buffs on.

 

Back to tinkering. 

 

Thank you for pointing this out to me in such a wonderfully clear way!

[StrikerFox]

Most players aim for +45% defense (Aka softcap defense) to type or positional def. When fighting an even level enemy, they have a base chance of 50% to hit/miss you. Adding +45% def bumps that number up to 95%, meaning they will hit you only 5% of the time. 

 

In most cases, there's not much use building for more defense than +45%, as everything in game has a minimum 5% chance to hit when attacking. So you could have +45% def, +100% def or +500% def and enemies will still hit you 5% of the time. This does not include things like -def debuffs or enemy +tohit buffs. 

 

Late game, Incarnate Trials, enemies have a +13.5% tohit buff. So some players build for +58.5% def (45% + 13.5%). 

 

So your current build, melee is at softcap. Ranged and AoE is about 3.2% below. Some players like to build a bit higher than +45% to give them a buffer from -def debuffs. I recommend around +47% just so one small purple +12.5% def inspiration will get you above incarnate softcap.

 

It's all pretty confusing. Anyone could explain it better than I did. Or Google, "City of Heroes softcap defense," and there will probably be a ton of guides/resources to help make sense of it.

[oldskool]

As the usual reminder, slotting the Gaussian's Build-Up proc in Tactics has a very low chance to go off when you solo. If you are in a group of people and proving the buff in range, then the changes work out a bit better. Is this worth doing? Well... probably not. However, it is the only way you can pseudo access Aim/Build-up-like buffs with Dual Pistols and this particular power combo. 

I currently do not run Tactics with my DP/SR build, and so I do not have any "Chance for Build-Up" effects (Decimation being the other option; it's not great either). I don't miss it, and don't feel I really need it. Dual Pistols, with damage procs, can slap pretty well. 

You don't need Pistols in your build. It looks like you're using it to mule that minor set. Look at HP and Regen with and without it. You'll notice you recover 11 hp in your current set up. If you dumped Pistols and that set you'd recover a bit over 9 hp. Are those slots worth investing in for less than 2 hp of health recovery? What else could you do with those slots? 

End management could feel a bit constrained in this build. Maybe in practice it won't be so bad since you have procs in Health and Stamina to help cover that. However, I dropped Nin because using Seishinteki Kyoyo kept eating into my damage routine vs just using blue inspirations. 

End management is one of the major drawbacks of slotting an attack sequence (Dual Wield, Suppressive Fire, Executioner's Shot) like this with the less than 3 end per second your build has. I speak from experience on this. My current version of my Sent, using SR for more end management, can still run out of gas and has more passive end then Nin. The more you have to interrupt attacking to fuel endurance, the less damage you do which then drags on combat, and so on and so on. 

You may want to consider backing off heavy proc use and mix in some minor set use. Thunderstrike Acc/Dmg, Acc/Dmg/End, and Dmg/End are 3 IOs that grant you a set boost to minor recovery, natively reduce end cost in your attack chain, and give you a minor ranged defense buff. This is for 3 slots, all of which can be boosted to +5, and lets you slap in procs for the remaining 3 slots. Yes, it is a bit less damage, but it is a considerable boost in quality of life. Not only that, it helps pad out your ranged defense. 

Obviously, if your end is good, and you like how things are, then don't worry about my advice. However, if you don't mind backing off procs a bit, then some frankenslotting can go a long way. 

[oddrobin]

On 3/8/2023 at 10:15 PM, StrikerFox said:

Most players aim for +45% defense (Aka softcap defense) to type or positional def. When fighting an even level enemy, they have a base chance of 50% to hit/miss you. Adding +45% def bumps that number up to 95%, meaning they will hit you only 5% of the time. 

 

In most cases, there's not much use building for more defense than +45%, as everything in game has a minimum 5% chance to hit when attacking. So you could have +45% def, +100% def or +500% def and enemies will still hit you 5% of the time. This does not include things like -def debuffs or enemy +tohit buffs. 

 

Late game, Incarnate Trials, enemies have a +13.5% tohit buff. So some players build for +58.5% def (45% + 13.5%). 

 

So your current build, melee is at softcap. Ranged and AoE is about 3.2% below. Some players like to build a bit higher than +45% to give them a buffer from -def debuffs. I recommend around +47% just so one small purple +12.5% def inspiration will get you above incarnate softcap.

 

It's all pretty confusing. Anyone could explain it better than I did. Or Google, "City of Heroes softcap defense," and there will probably be a ton of guides/resources to help make sense of it.

You explained it very well here! Thank you. I am still working on it and I think it's going to be great!

[oddrobin]

On 3/9/2023 at 2:32 PM, oldskool said:

As the usual reminder, slotting the Gaussian's Build-Up proc in Tactics has a very low chance to go off when you solo. If you are in a group of people and proving the buff in range, then the changes work out a bit better. Is this worth doing? Well... probably not. However, it is the only way you can pseudo access Aim/Build-up-like buffs with Dual Pistols and this particular power combo. 

I currently do not run Tactics with my DP/SR build, and so I do not have any "Chance for Build-Up" effects (Decimation being the other option; it's not great either). I don't miss it, and don't feel I really need it. Dual Pistols, with damage procs, can slap pretty well. 

You don't need Pistols in your build. It looks like you're using it to mule that minor set. Look at HP and Regen with and without it. You'll notice you recover 11 hp in your current set up. If you dumped Pistols and that set you'd recover a bit over 9 hp. Are those slots worth investing in for less than 2 hp of health recovery? What else could you do with those slots? 

End management could feel a bit constrained in this build. Maybe in practice it won't be so bad since you have procs in Health and Stamina to help cover that. However, I dropped Nin because using Seishinteki Kyoyo kept eating into my damage routine vs just using blue inspirations. 

End management is one of the major drawbacks of slotting an attack sequence (Dual Wield, Suppressive Fire, Executioner's Shot) like this with the less than 3 end per second your build has. I speak from experience on this. My current version of my Sent, using SR for more end management, can still run out of gas and has more passive end then Nin. The more you have to interrupt attacking to fuel endurance, the less damage you do which then drags on combat, and so on and so on. 

You may want to consider backing off heavy proc use and mix in some minor set use. Thunderstrike Acc/Dmg, Acc/Dmg/End, and Dmg/End are 3 IOs that grant you a set boost to minor recovery, natively reduce end cost in your attack chain, and give you a minor ranged defense buff. This is for 3 slots, all of which can be boosted to +5, and lets you slap in procs for the remaining 3 slots. Yes, it is a bit less damage, but it is a considerable boost in quality of life. Not only that, it helps pad out your ranged defense. 

Obviously, if your end is good, and you like how things are, then don't worry about my advice. However, if you don't mind backing off procs a bit, then some frankenslotting can go a long way. 

These are really great points. Thank you! I'm still playing around with the build. I didn't realize there would be such a learning curve, but it's turning into a fun puzzle I am going to solve.

[oldskool]

17 hours ago, oddrobin said:

These are really great points. Thank you! I'm still playing around with the build. I didn't realize there would be such a learning curve, but it's turning into a fun puzzle I am going to solve.

Yeah, Dual Pistols is unlike any other ranged set in the game. The only other one that has some similarities is Beam Rifle. It is worth noting that both of those sets came up later in the lifespan of COH before its shutdown. There were some lessons learned, some lessons ignored, and some ambitious ideas tossed into both sets. 

Nin is also a more active defense-based set with a bunch of different tools adding to its complexity (its even more busy on Stalkers). 

The combination of both power sets creates a bit more of a learning curve than the norm. 

Also, yeah... building characters is a bit of a puzzle that can be fun in its own way. Many different power sets have pretty straight forward options on powers to pick and avoid. Dual Pistols has much muddier waters on that subject because most of the set has value in certain context. 

For example, Pistols by default is a bit more damage efficient than Dual Wield. A lot of common forum knowledge is that T2 (Dual Wield here) powers are almost always better than their T1 (Pistols) powers. However, for Dual Pistols this mindset isn't always true. It can be, in certain builds, but isn't necessarily a default mindset one should operate with. The value of the two powers can also be AT dependent as there are some advantages to using one over the other by archetype. That's a lot of freaking nuance between two powers and we hadn't even gotten past the first level choice. 

Additionally, as much as I dislike Piercing Rounds, there is an interaction where its value can be better when you get its recharge down to 4.224 seconds. That is exactly the amount of time it takes to use Pistols -> Executioner's Shot -> Pistols and have Piercing Rounds be available again. This is not the best use of powers on the Sentinel but it can be a good option on Defenders and Corruptors in some set ups. The way it expresses value is using standard ammo for the debuffs in all three attacks. That's additional defense and resistance debuffing which can stack with support powers. Is it always the best option? Probably not, but it is a gameplay element worth thinking about on occasion. Stuff like this is why I enjoy the set so much. 

Edited March 15 by oldskool