Tankiest Tanks?

[Luigrein]

Just to weigh in on the stone tank thing:

 

For pure durability stone/ takes the crown. The issue people have with it is that there are significant offensive penalties in getting there, and other sets when IOd out can reach functionally identical levels without the offense penalty. Since stone starts at a higher levrl they can invest more of their IO bonuses into offense but it’s generally easier to shore up your defense than your offense. If you just want to be an unmoving wsll stone/ is your quickest and easiest route there, just be aware that it makes sacrifices to be that.

 

As an aside, stone outside of granite switches to decent durability with no offense penalty and no psy hole (basically granite’s only defensive weak point)

 

Honestly, I think the main issue is that stone is showing it’s age. Back when everyone only had SOs and maybe some HOs it had clear advantages, but IOs let you buy most of those advantages with influence while stone paid for them with offense. And while you can buy some offense with IOs stone/ is starting from an actual penalty instead of a “more would be nice” position that sets getting more defenses start with. Sure I can probably IO away most of granite’s penslties but thats getting me back to a baseline rather than taking me over the top like other sets boosting their sefense get.

[marcussmythe]

Several sets - Stone and Invuln leap to mind - show strongly the ‘we dont balance for IOs’ aspect of development.  They show very well in an SO environment.

 

To some degree I think this is true of the Tanker Archetype more broadly - its strengths show best before IOs and set bonuses are involved.

[FUBARczar]

Sees someone say - again - that Super Strength is a "crap" choice because of the Rage crash not being avoidable anymore

 

Experiences profound NERDRAGE; gets two minute buff to ability to blow hot air

 

Ahem; as a longtime Super Strength fan, having paired the set to good effect on both Electric Armor and Radiation Armor, I can say, with confidence, that the set is not crap. Even with a base defense of only 20% to all positions, I run +4/x8 fire farms with my current Rad/SS, and the Rage crash has yet to kill me - and this is without popping inspirations, nor leaning on my Destiny slot.

 

The set does have a disadvantage that hurts you if you rely heavily on Defense alone. But even then, Super Strength offers a way to mitigate its own Rage crash - the Hand Clap power. Really, that power isn't useless either; it's ideal for buying yourself time to let the Rage crash wear off, if you're taking too much damage during it. It can also be used to good effect by off-tanks to knock stray mobs back into the giant blob of frak-you that the party is cooking up.

 

Yes, people usually skip Hand Clap - it's not a power conducive to every playstyle, especially playstyles that focus on speed, steamrollering the mobs. But the power, and the set it's in, are not crap.

 

Takes a deep breath, experiencing ten seconds of lack of hot air

 

Uses Sands of Mu to imitate Kenshiro, that power not being affected by the crash; follows with Ionic Judgement, that also not being affected

 

Thought I was done ranting, did you? And oop, my NERDRAGE is back up! RAWWWRRR!!!! ^_^

 

Thank you for listening,

 

Loranna

 

hehehe Hand Clap!  Noooooooo!  That's a double whammy, not only will a rage crash no allow you to be offensive, it will also crush you defensively, and to fix it you should take a useless power and waste a power selection.  Not to mention that everyone who seems to take it never puts a KB-->KD IO in it (rage time) and they slow the whole team down scattering mobs, making everyone's AoE less effective.  Maybe if it was a "sonic" hand clap and did some -res.....

 

The -def rage crash is monumental for many sets (Def and Resist. based), it was bad enough standing around doing nothing for 10 seconds doing nothing, well except taunting, but now it can kill you too. 

 

Just allow, even encourage doubling stacking rage by cutting rage values in half and getting rid of the crash.  /fixed

 

Perfect pairing I guess is Stone/SS two gimped sets in one. 

[Warboss]

Well.... not that I'm a fan of Hand Clap, but you can now add the Sudden Acceleration proc KB to KD and you'd have a power like Fault, which provides good damage mitigation. I'd have to check the recharge time to see if it would be worth it. But, conceivably it could be an early way (while leveling) to bleed off incoming damage (I think it affects up to 10, right?). You might also be able to pop a Taunt (Proc or IO common Taunt in there and really mess with the baddies). I think the biggest problem with Hand Clap is much like the blasting Power Sets that do KB,  is the players don't know how to use them in a "team friendly" manner. They usually run in and "Blam!" the foes go flying and all the Invulns and Rads stand there sighing and rolling their eyes (sarcastically: If only there were sets to offset the affect...).

 

As for "Rage Crash", not a fan. I think it needs to be looked at. At the higher levels it has less of an impact on the toon due to IO sets, incarnates, and accolades. However, at the lower levels it's just a pain. I know at one point there was talk about providing and alternate buff to Rage that standardized the damage output and limited the effect of the crash or eliminated it entirely (sorry, don't' recall the details).

 

With the new power sets coming out (Electric, Bio, and Rad) Stone needs to be looked at again. If nothing else, it should at least be able to use Combat Jumping with it, instead of being forced to "Teletank". 

[LorannaPyrel]

 

hehehe Hand Clap!  Noooooooo!  That's a double whammy, not only will a rage crash no allow you to be offensive, it will also crush you defensively, and to fix it you should take a useless power and waste a power selection.  Not to mention that everyone who seems to take it never puts a KB-->KD IO in it (rage time) and they slow the whole team down scattering mobs, making everyone's AoE less effective.  Maybe if it was a "sonic" hand clap and did some -res.....

 

The -def rage crash is monumental for many sets (Def and Resist. based), it was bad enough standing around doing nothing for 10 seconds doing nothing, well except taunting, but now it can kill you too. 

 

Just allow, even encourage doubling stacking rage by cutting rage values in half and getting rid of the crash.  /fixed

 

Perfect pairing I guess is Stone/SS two gimped sets in one.

 

As I alluded to in my prior post, the -damage part doesn't apply to prestige powers like Sands of Mu, nor to your Judgement power. So you can maintain some offense, even during the crash. Also, while powers like Foot Stomp won't do damage, they will still knock enemies over during the crash, so you can still get some mitigation rolling, if you need it.

 

And, again, Hand Clap is not useless; it does what it's designed to do, which is create space and stun minions. It's just that a lot of modern playstyles don't have a burning need to create space and stun minions, because Foot Stomp already provides good mitigation and does damage on top of that.

 

Your claim that the rage crash is "monumental" to many sets - including resist based ones - is all that I'm taking exception to here; I understand that you don't like the way Rage works and wish it to be changed, and I can get behind that sentiment. But there are people who have found ways to make the Rage crash be far, far less than "monumental" on their builds.

 

So please, stop calling Super Strength a gimped set based just on your experience; it doesn't work for your playstyle, fine, but it does work for other people just fine.

 

Loranna

[Heraclea]

To some degree I think this is true of the Tanker Archetype more broadly - its strengths show best before IOs and set bonuses are involved.

 

You try being a levelling blaster in a world of Alpha.  That too can be frustrating.

 

OTOH, a tanker with an Alpha is currently the ideal soloing class, easily soloing Romans on the wall and well chosen radios at +4/8 for cash and drops, knowing that she can do so in perfect safety and, thanks to the alpha nuke, reasonable speed as well. 

 

I have to agree: Stone is a dinosaur.  The drawbacks are both gameplay and esthetic.  In 2012 I had a level 50 stone/axe, but she was never my favorite, and after I made an Invuln/DM and got that one to 50 the stone tanker sat neglected.  Yes, she was hard to kill in Granite, and all but useless on Council catwalk maps.  Much easier to build an Invuln, Shield, WP, Reflexes, or Ice up to that level than to work around the disadvantages of Stone, and that doesn't take into account the limited character concepts that work well with Stone.  You can make any of those primaries the equal of Granite in pure survivability without IO sets: just pick Dark Melee as your secondary, and there you go.  An attack that does decent damage, but it's also a self heal that makes you harder to hit? <archer>I can't believe this is happening!</archer>  Stone has two things profoundly contrary to the spirit of the game: it is slow and boring.

 

Super Strength is another set I've fallen out of love with.  It relies too much on Rage and Foot Stomp.  Before ED I never took Rage on Heraclea for LOLRP reasons.  It didn't work with my vision of the character, and for the same reason, she has never had Unstoppable.  Super Strength gets by on the name: you want your tanker to be super strong.  But it remains an attack set that has intentional misfeatures that are incompatible with your primary role, especially on a team.  So when I brought Heraclea back I made her Dark Melee this time around, one of many secondaries that further rather than hinder your main role on a team.  There are other power sets like Street Justice and Titan Weapons that keep some of the feel of 'super strength'.  Or you can just add Air Superiority to any secondary. 

[LorannaPyrel]

But it remains an attack set that has intentional misfeatures that are incompatible with your primary role, especially on a team.

 

Could you please clarify why you feel this way? In what way does Super Strength possess misfeatures which are incompatible with our primary role?

 

- Loranna

[Heraclea]

But it remains an attack set that has intentional misfeatures that are incompatible with your primary role, especially on a team.

 

Could you please clarify why you feel this way? In what way does Super Strength possess misfeatures which are incompatible with our primary role?

 

Rage crash leaves you with reduced defense from baseline, reducing your survivability.  It also has a large endurance penalty that puts you at risk of dropping toggles.  Finally, the crash comes with a damage penalty.  All of this reduces your ability to be the last one standing and to hold aggro.

[FUBARczar]

 

 

As I alluded to in my prior post, the -damage part doesn't apply to prestige powers like Sands of Mu, nor to your Judgement power. So you can maintain some offense, even during the crash. Also, while powers like Foot Stomp won't do damage, they will still knock enemies over during the crash, so you can still get some mitigation rolling, if you need it.

 

And, again, Hand Clap is not useless; it does what it's designed to do, which is create space and stun minions. It's just that a lot of modern playstyles don't have a burning need to create space and stun minions, because Foot Stomp already provides good mitigation and does damage on top of that.

 

Your claim that the rage crash is "monumental" to many sets - including resist based ones - is all that I'm taking exception to here; I understand that you don't like the way Rage works and wish it to be changed, and I can get behind that sentiment. But there are people who have found ways to make the Rage crash be far, far less than "monumental" on their builds.

 

So please, stop calling Super Strength a gimped set based just on your experience; it doesn't work for your playstyle, fine, but it does work for other people just fine.

 

Loranna

 

- Handclap is useless 'Offensively'  (/fixed) and yet it's in an offensive power set, its a waste of a power that again leads most who use it to negatively impact a teams efficiency.  Yes to me and many others that spells G-A-R-B-A-G-E.

 

- Oh great a set that makes you lean on Vet Powers to fill huge holes even as an Incarnate.  Oh and let's hope that when your rage is crashed, that's when you wanted to use your Judgement.  Most likely not though, so you are probably saving it when you should use it, and using it when you don't need to, or want to, at some suboptimal time.

 

- hang on a second I am experiencing a "Rage" crash and I cannot engage in this post for ten seconds...

 

- Ok back, ;p

 

- Rage Crash is antithetical to "Super Strength," and to "Tanking" - it's a terrible design and the power set s/b fixed.  And of course, people are going to take measures to mitigate the problems (not weaknesses, but actual problems) with rage and Stone Armor for that matter.

 

 

[LorannaPyrel]

Rage crash leaves you with reduced defense from baseline, reducing your survivability.  It also has a large endurance penalty that puts you at risk of dropping toggles.  Finally, the crash comes with a damage penalty.  All of this reduces your ability to be the last one standing and to hold aggro.

 

Reduced defense does reduce your survivability, yes, but defense is not the only form of mitigation available to super strength tankers. Resists, knockdowns, high base hit points, regen and self heals, all over ways to mitigate incoming damage or remove damage taken during the Rage Crash.

 

The endurance penalty can hurt, yes, but endurance is an issue that plagues all Tankers all throughout their careers, not just Super Strength tankers. Slotting for endurance reduction, carrying blues, using the Recovery Serum temp power, or picking an armor set with good endurance management capability, all can mitigate the endurance penalty of the Rage Crash.

 

The damage penalty does reduce your ability to hold aggro, yes. But as I've said before, there are powers which are not affected by the damage debuff, all available at the P2W vendor in Atlas Park. There's also our taunt auras, and the Taunt power itself, both of which continue to function during the crash - damage-based taunt auras will suffer some compared to the rest, yes, but they will still function. Gauntlet will still work, even with the damage penalty - in fact, Gauntlet should still be carrying over from the last attack you made before the damage crash hit. Finally, debuffs from epic pools, such as Darkest Night, the -to hit debuffs from any of the Soul or Dark Mastery attacks, or Melt Armor, also offer ways to grab aggro while your damage is debuffed. 

 

The Rage Crash is annoying, yes, and it does impair your functioning to an extent - but I hope my argument here shows, it's not an insurmountable obstacle.

 

- Loranna

[LorannaPyrel]

 

 

- Handclap is useless 'Offensively'  (/fixed) and yet it's in an offensive power set, its a waste of a power that again leads most who use it to negatively impact a teams efficiency.  Yes to me and many others that spells G-A-R-B-A-G-E.

 

- Oh great a set that makes you lean on Vet Powers to fill huge holes even as an Incarnate.  Oh and let's hope that when your rage is crashed, that's when you wanted to use your Judgement.  Most likely not though, so you are probably saving it when you should use it, and using it when you don't need to, or want to, at some suboptimal time.

 

- hang on a second I am experiencing a "Rage" crash and I cannot engage in this post for ten seconds...

 

- Ok back, ;p

 

- Rage Crash is antithetical to "Super Strength," and to "Tanking" - it's a terrible design and the power set s/b fixed.  And of course, people are going to take measures to mitigate the problems (not weaknesses, but actual problems) with rage and Stone Armor for that matter.

 

So, your rebuttal to my argument is, because there are weaknesses in the Super Strength set, that prompt people to seek ways to mitigate said weaknesses, that said weaknesses are somehow antithetical to the set itself and to tanking in general. Do I have the right of that?

 

Soo . . . what then would be an example of a melee set that doesn't have any outstanding weaknesses that require some working around, in one way or another? That doesn't require either slotting to account for some feature in the set, or making use of powers outside the set to shore up a downside, or otherwise require you do something to account for some failing in said set?

 

- Loranna

[Heraclea]

The Rage Crash is annoying, yes, and it does impair your functioning to an extent - but I hope my argument here shows, it's not an insurmountable obstacle.

 

Super Strength does have some things going for it.  It contains several skippable powers, including Hurl, and yes, Hand Clap.  But other attack sets either don't have those disadvantages that are exclusive to Super Strength.  They just bring more to the table.  Foot Stomp is really only that useful from levels 46 - when a tanker can get it - through 49; because at 50 your alpha slot opens and will mostly replace it as an opening move. 

[IronJuke]

I played an Invuln/Axe Tanker when the game went live till about 2012. 

 

Invuln was almost boring because you could handle any number of mobs, and do massive pulls including PL maps.

 

I didn't need healers, or defenders most of the time.  Rikti mezzers could be a pain.

 

I gotta try it again to see, damage was not great however.

 

 

[LorannaPyrel]

The Rage Crash is annoying, yes, and it does impair your functioning to an extent - but I hope my argument here shows, it's not an insurmountable obstacle.

 

Super Strength does have some things going for it.  It contains several skippable powers, including Hurl, and yes, Hand Clap.  But other attack sets either don't have those disadvantages that are exclusive to Super Strength.  They just bring more to the table.  Foot Stomp is really only that useful from levels 46 - when a tanker can get it - through 49; because at 50 your alpha slot opens and will mostly replace it as an opening move.

 

I agree, one of Super Strength's pros is that the set can be pared down to six powers and still offer the vast majority of its functionality; that's three extra powers one can thus grab from pools, epics, and/or patrons, opening up further options that other melee sets, by comparison, would have to sacrifice a valuable attack to obtain.

 

The point where I take exception, is the claim that other sets "just bring more to the table." To use Dark Melee as an example for now, Dark brings lots of -to hit, yes, which adds to survivability. Dark also brings a self heal baked into an attack, and a potent self damage buff that lacks any crash like Rage. These are all great tools for a tank!

 

But Dark does have its limitations, too. Dark Melee's AoE, for example, is limited to one 5 target cone, and two AoEs on two or three minute timers; even limited to just Foot Stomp, Super Strength has more AoE potential overall, not having to line up a cone in order to get multiple targets. Not having much familiarity with the set, I don't know many ways offhand one could mitigate the dearth of AoE, but I can at least see how taking pool powers like Cross Punch, Spring Attack, Fireball, et al, could definitely help - as could picking up Sands of Mu (and some global accuracy/to hit bonuses to make the attack hit reliably - I kind of forgot to mention that in earlier posts! ^_^)

 

Both sets have their selling points, and both sets have their drawbacks, and both sets appeal to different players - and that's fine. Everyone's playstyle is different, and it's good that we have a multitude of powersets to pick from! But I keep seeing people claiming that "Super Strength is bad because X", and I know, from experience, that X is invariably something mitigatable. The one big thing about the set that isn't mitigatable, is that it's all Smashing damage, and Smashing is a commonly resisted damage type. But beyond that, the issue I see people have with the set always boils down to either "I don't like what it offers, compared to another set" - or "I don't get how you're supposed to deal with these downsides."

 

For the latter, particularly the Rage crash, I hope I've offered suffecient examples of how one can deal with the downside. For the former . . . all I ask is that people acknowledge the difference between a power that doesn't do what it's supposed to, and a personal preference in playstyle.

 

(Before anyone says it: No, Rage does what it's supposed to. It offers a long-lasting, big damage buff, essentially perma-able, in return for a periodic, short-lived penalty to damage and survivability. Can you kill your foes before the crash hits? If not, can you keep your enemies from killing you during the downtime - even if it means investing heavily into your build, or taking an unpopular power? Yes? Then yes, the power does what it's supposed to - offer you high reward for taking a risk, and you can stack the odds in your favor to boot)

 

Thank you for the conversation; I hope I've managed now to state my case, clearly and without rancor.

 

- Loranna

[Warboss]

Step one of my cunning plan complete (leveled toon to 16+). Step 2 complete, took Hand Clap at level 16. Step 3 complete. purchased and slotted SE proc KB to KD (works very well)). Step 4, waiting to see the look of horror and shock on Lor's face when I use it at TTT tonight. ;)

 

Bottom line, HC +SE Proc = Fault, good damage mitigation, good recharge out of the gate, waiting to see it in action to night with a bit of recharge/Acc added in. Next test will be adding PZ's Psi damage Proc.

[LorannaPyrel]

Step one of my cunning plan complete (leveled toon to 16+). Step 2 complete, took Hand Clap at level 16. Step 3 complete. purchased and slotted SE proc KB to KD (works very well)). Step 4, waiting to see the look of horror and shock on Lor's face when I use it at TTT tonight. ;)

 

Bottom line, HC +SE Proc = Fault, good damage mitigation, good recharge out of the gate, waiting to see it in action to night with a bit of recharge/Acc added in. Next test will be adding PZ's Psi damage Proc.

 

I hereby go on record as stating, using the Sudden Acceleration proc on Hand Clap is cheating mccheesy cheddar, melted on top of scrumptious  elbow macaroni, and I will gladly eat it all up except that i need to watch my carbs these days :P

 

Seeya tonight Boss!

 

Loranna

[FUBARczar]

So, your rebuttal to my argument is, because there are weaknesses in the Super Strength set, that prompt people to seek ways to mitigate said weaknesses, that said weaknesses are somehow antithetical to the set itself and to tanking in general. Do I have the right of that?

 

- Loranna

 

No, I specifically said problem, not weakness.  They aren't weaknesses, they are bad mechanics, and thus problems.  Don't be a used car salesman and call something that is a broken a feature.  "Oh the air conditioner doesn't work, but you can just roll down the windows and enjoy fresh air." 

[Heraclea]

But Dark does have its limitations, too. Dark Melee's AoE, for example, is limited to one 5 target cone, and two AoEs on two or three minute timers; even limited to just Foot Stomp, Super Strength has more AoE potential overall, not having to line up a cone in order to get multiple targets. Not having much familiarity with the set, I don't know many ways offhand one could mitigate the dearth of AoE, but I can at least see how taking pool powers like Cross Punch, Spring Attack, Fireball, et al, could definitely help - as could picking up Sands of Mu (and some global accuracy/to hit bonuses to make the attack hit reliably - I kind of forgot to mention that in earlier posts! ^_^)

 

I used to recommend Salt Crystals from the Earth Mastery epic pool to Willpower tankers wanting more aggro management.  But any level 50 tanker can have a nuke on a 1.30 timer via their judgement slot, one that will eventually put Foot Stomp to shame. 

 

Sands of Mu is basically the same as Shadow Maul.  It isn't terribly easy or intuitive to use, and I will grant that the cone is very narrow. 

 

I do favor power sets that do exotic damage over anything that jusyt does smashing or lethal.  You run into much less resistance, very noticeable in the end game.  Another advantage is that if you have attacks that do -tohit, stun, slow, or defense debuff this opens up options for frankenslotting that something like, say, fiery melee doesn't have.  My Bio/Spines tanker plans on putting a Pacing of the Turtle  recharge slow in everything. 

[LorannaPyrel]

So, your rebuttal to my argument is, because there are weaknesses in the Super Strength set, that prompt people to seek ways to mitigate said weaknesses, that said weaknesses are somehow antithetical to the set itself and to tanking in general. Do I have the right of that?

 

- Loranna

 

No, I specifically said problem, not weakness.  They aren't weaknesses, they are bad mechanics, and thus problems.  Don't be a used car salesman and call something that is a broken a feature.  "Oh the air conditioner doesn't work, but you can just roll down the windows and enjoy fresh air."

 

Oh, used car salesman? Fine; I'm almost done here.

 

What's Rage supposed to do, then? Because, far as I see, its purpose is "give you a damage boost." It comes with a downside, but it still does the job of giving you a damage boost. Heck, said damage boost, beyond the periodic Rage Crashes, can be kept up as long as you want.

 

That's not a broken feature; that's you either not knowing, or else not caring to learn, how to deal with the downside. The power does its job; please stop saying that your opinion on the power's downside is proof that it's badly designed.

 

There; I'm now done here. If people have any further questions regarding Super Strength, feel free to ask me via PM. I won't continue to derail the conversation about tangents.

 

- Loranna

 

 

[Williwaw]

When I had a Stone/Stone Tanker back on Live, I tended to mainly use individual powers rather than run Granite constantly.  I'd run the S/L and Mez toggle all the time, and turn on the F/C, E/N, and Psi toggles as necessary.

 

Then again, I never ran +4/x8, and I never had much money so I wasn't completely IO'd out.

 

(Still, these days, I'd rather remake him as a WP/Stone Tanker, just because he was an endurance hog up all the way up to 50)

[MaximusPrime]

The Rage Crash is annoying, yes, and it does impair your functioning to an extent - but I hope my argument here shows, it's not an insurmountable obstacle.

 

Super Strength does have some things going for it.  It contains several skippable powers, including Hurl, and yes, Hand Clap.  But other attack sets either don't have those disadvantages that are exclusive to Super Strength.  They just bring more to the table.  Foot Stomp is really only that useful from levels 46 - when a tanker can get it - through 49; because at 50 your alpha slot opens and will mostly replace it as an opening move.

 

I agree, one of Super Strength's pros is that the set can be pared down to six powers and still offer the vast majority of its functionality; that's three extra powers one can thus grab from pools, epics, and/or patrons, opening up further options that other melee sets, by comparison, would have to sacrifice a valuable attack to obtain.

 

The point where I take exception, is the claim that other sets "just bring more to the table." To use Dark Melee as an example for now, Dark brings lots of -to hit, yes, which adds to survivability. Dark also brings a self heal baked into an attack, and a potent self damage buff that lacks any crash like Rage. These are all great tools for a tank!

 

But Dark does have its limitations, too. Dark Melee's AoE, for example, is limited to one 5 target cone, and two AoEs on two or three minute timers; even limited to just Foot Stomp, Super Strength has more AoE potential overall, not having to line up a cone in order to get multiple targets. Not having much familiarity with the set, I don't know many ways offhand one could mitigate the dearth of AoE, but I can at least see how taking pool powers like Cross Punch, Spring Attack, Fireball, et al, could definitely help - as could picking up Sands of Mu (and some global accuracy/to hit bonuses to make the attack hit reliably - I kind of forgot to mention that in earlier posts! ^_^)

 

Both sets have their selling points, and both sets have their drawbacks, and both sets appeal to different players - and that's fine. Everyone's playstyle is different, and it's good that we have a multitude of powersets to pick from! But I keep seeing people claiming that "Super Strength is bad because X", and I know, from experience, that X is invariably something mitigatable. The one big thing about the set that isn't mitigatable, is that it's all Smashing damage, and Smashing is a commonly resisted damage type. But beyond that, the issue I see people have with the set always boils down to either "I don't like what it offers, compared to another set" - or "I don't get how you're supposed to deal with these downsides."

 

For the latter, particularly the Rage crash, I hope I've offered suffecient examples of how one can deal with the downside. For the former . . . all I ask is that people acknowledge the difference between a power that doesn't do what it's supposed to, and a personal preference in playstyle.

 

(Before anyone says it: No, Rage does what it's supposed to. It offers a long-lasting, big damage buff, essentially perma-able, in return for a periodic, short-lived penalty to damage and survivability. Can you kill your foes before the crash hits? If not, can you keep your enemies from killing you during the downtime - even if it means investing heavily into your build, or taking an unpopular power? Yes? Then yes, the power does what it's supposed to - offer you high reward for taking a risk, and you can stack the odds in your favor to boot)

 

Thank you for the conversation; I hope I've managed now to state my case, clearly and without rancor.

 

- Loranna

 

 

Umm, no.  I can't figure out why someone is arguing for bad game design.  The rage crash is ridiculously impairing to play and survivability.  I rolled Super Strength expecting to have a similar endearing experience like I did on my main Tanker on live (Ice/SS).  But then playing it here I kept wondering why I was eating half my tray of inspirations, just fighting to stay alive when it crashed.  It was and is horribly wrong.  I had to check combat numbers to figure out what was going on.  I have two SS characters on here, but I can't play them, it is that debilitating.  Now I have to play and actually enjoying playing Street Justice in place of SS (Thank goodness for that set!)

 

Also SS is a set of 3 powers really, or 4 because you have to take Jab:  Jab, KO Blow, Rage, and Foot Stomp, everything else pretty much under performs compared to other sets.  Well I guess haymaker is okish. So four, but forced into Jab for a 5-power set

 

Personally, I think your pro rage crash position is not a good one.  You make a very weak case beyond the obvious (yet unsaid) Double Stacking Rage with no Penalties is not balanced.  And in-game play your ideas of plugging it with Vet powers, and Incarnate powers deserves a "face palm."  It got me killed a few times, it's very disruptive for game-play, it leaves a bad bitter taste, Rage should be fixed and balanced.  And not turn me into Bruce Banner, when I am Superman!

[FUBARczar]

Oh that's gold,  QFT

 

Rage should

not turn [you] into Bruce Banner when [you are] Superman!

 

That does kind of embody the problem.  Rage should be adjusted, of course, and the whole set should be fixed since it's balanced around a broken power.

 

 

[LorannaPyrel]

Umm, no.  I can't figure out why someone is arguing for bad game design.  The rage crash is ridiculously impairing to play and survivability.  I rolled Super Strength expecting to have a similar endearing experience like I did on my main Tanker on live (Ice/SS).  But then playing it here I kept wondering why I was eating half my tray of inspirations, just fighting to stay alive when it crashed.  It was and is horribly wrong.  I had to check combat numbers to figure out what was going on.  I have two SS characters on here, but I can't play them, it is that debilitating.  Now I have to play and actually enjoying playing Street Justice in place of SS (Thank goodness for that set!)

 

Also SS is a set of 3 powers really, or 4 because you have to take Jab:  Jab, KO Blow, Rage, and Foot Stomp, everything else pretty much under performs compared to other sets.  Well I guess haymaker is okish. So four, but forced into Jab for a 5-power set

 

Personally, I think your pro rage crash position is not a good one.  You make a very weak case beyond the obvious (yet unsaid) Double Stacking Rage with no Penalties is not balanced.  And in-game play your ideas of plugging it with Vet powers, and Incarnate powers deserves a "face palm."  It got me killed a few times, it's very disruptive for game-play, it leaves a bad bitter taste, Rage should be fixed and balanced.  And not turn me into Bruce Banner, when I am Superman!

 

Okay, I lied. I'm not done.

 

So . . . and I admit I am paraphrasing here - it seems the essence of your argument is "a power with a long duration buff, then a short, but debilitating, debuff, is bad game design, especially when the set is built/balanced around said power." Or in other words, Rage is rather like the old-style "3 minutes godmode, then keel over and die" T9 powers from many armor sets, a relic of old, outdated thinking about what makes a game fun.

 

Huzzah! You're right! \o/ Personally, I can't stand those T9 armor powers. Heck, I don't even take them even when they don't conform to that old, silly design philosophy. Too many bad memories of running around on Electric Armor as a crackling ball of static electricity, then keeling over and dying to a stiff wind at an embarrassing moment. Having to deal with a painful, debilitating debuff isn't all that fun!

 

. . . But Rage isn't changing anytime soon, and as it happens, I know from personal experience that Rage's debilitating crash can be mitigated. I've been trying to explain how one can mitigate the crash throughout this thread. I can go over it again if people really need to, explain multiple ways to deal with each aspect of the Rage crash - the defense debuff, the endurance debuff, and the damage debuff - but really, if you don't like the design concept behind Rage, then . . .don't take it! I know people who use Super Strength and skip Rage; heck, even I've done it myself a couple of times.

 

Or, as you and others have chosen, don't use Super Strength at all, if you feel that the set has too many "underperforming" powers. As I said before, it's a good thing that we have so many powersets from which to choose. You like Street Justice now? Great! Personally I can't stand the set; the AoEs feel gimpy to me, I dislike having to chase after three levels of Combo just so that a third of my powers will do what they're "supposed" to when I want to use them, and I never really felt that the set was doing all that much extra damage anyway. Oh, and I couldn't figure out how to pare the set down to just six power picks without seeming to gimp myself.

 

And as for double-stacking Rage to avoid the crash, well yes, that was just a little unbalanced. As you noted, it was obvious, so I figured it could be left unsaid ^_^

 

So there. You're right, Rage is an old, antiquated approach to game design. You're well within your rights to dislike how the power works, and its effects on your gaming experience.

 

However, said crash can be mitigated. I know it can; I've done it plenty of times. I've also found that, once I understood how to mitigate the crash, Rage became a useful addition to Super Strength's arsenal, one that I enjoy using, and which improves my enjoyment of the set as a whole. So no, I'm not "pro Rage crash" so much as I'm "pro Rage" - though honestly, having grown used to the design of Rage over the years, even if they do come up with a reworking of the power someday, I might prefer to leave my Super Strength toons as they are, with the old version. I'm happy enough with what I've got to work with now.

 

- Loranna

[TheDragonborn]

On 6/14/2019 at 11:00 AM, marcussmythe said:

 

Shield would still be a decent set if you replaced AoO, Shield Charge, Grant Cover, and Phalanx Fighting with blank powers that did nothing and could be skipped.  The combination of resistance and positional DEF is a very, very strong one.  The fact that it also gives a large AOE attack and a perma-buildup is simply additional sauce.

Against all odds is completely necessary for shield defense, grant cover only benefits teammates and phalanx is better with teammates. id still take phalanx for the auto +def it provides.
its very easy and simple to get soft cap'd positional defenses with shield, the issue i see with shield is lack of HP, true grit should allow for more of a +max health. only three tanks should truly be able to hit the hp cap and keep it and those are invul, wp, and shield. invuln can perma dull pain and keep perma hp cap with the right build while also soft capping fire/cold/energy/psi/and negative def. due to having soft cap defenses for those 5, invulnerability doesnt need hard cap'd resistances for them due to dull pain. 
shield defense is really good on endurance so its only lack is the res and a self heal/hp. i for one wouldnt be mad if true grit took away the +res to all and was just a pure +max hp auto power. SD doesnt have a self heal and thats why the lack of being able to get the resistances up, and hp cap is why its not that popular. 
willpower is the only one that doesnt need any changes as its already OP. hard capping res doesnt matter if resting regen is 750% and 1250%+ when farming mobs. my Wp tank has every res only sitting at 50% or more and it can handle tanking anything at +4/8, handle Gm's. 

[Hyperstrike]

On 6/14/2019 at 6:49 AM, Shadewe said:

You can't use Psi and everything else at the same time. Not as 'pure' of a hole as invul but still a hole.

Kinda like finding the one infected hair on a VERY hirstute dude.