Explain to me Water Jet (from Water Blast): Why is it so meh?

[tidge]

I've played a Water Blast Blaster, so I understand that role that Water Jet (a T7 primary attack power) plays in Tidal Power... but in practice, I find that I was incredibly disappointed with:

• Damage was lackluster, roughly on par with the T2 attack Hydro Blast... not to mention Arcane Bolt from the Sorcery pool,
• It took me (YMMV) a LOT of effort to try to work it into an attack chain (because of the Tidal Power effect), partially because of what happens with tidal power after a miss (nothing, so no "fast Water Jet") or elapsed time (buh-bye Tidal Power)

 

I will disclose: I like the fast animation of Water Jet, but ultimately that was not enough reason for me to keep it.

 

My opinion: Water Blast is an otherwise solid set. I can almost see why things were mixed up for it... e.g. I find the lack of a Snipe to be disappointing, but it's not the end of the world... but I really can't get my head around why this power has a T7 with such meager damage compared to a Pool power ranged attack and T5 or T6 Snipes from other Blaster sets.

 

I don't have a specific suggestion, but I feel like this subforum has often been a good place to have discussions of balance (within sets for a specific AT).

[Outrider_01]

Because you can recast it? 🤔

 

Insta recast is no different then snipe fast cast.  It just requires a "set" combo condition unlike the snipe which requires a "in" combat condition.

 

Thats my take at least, I haven't gotten my water blaster characters fully kitted out.  I get distracted too much.

[Rudra]

1 hour ago, tidge said:

• Damage was lackluster, roughly on par with the T2 attack Hydro Blast... not to mention Arcane Bolt from the Sorcery pool,
• It took me (YMMV) a LOT of effort to try to work it into an attack chain (because of the Tidal Power effect), partially because of what happens with tidal power after a miss (nothing, so no "fast Water Jet") or elapsed time (buh-bye Tidal Power)

No it doesn't.

 

Hydro Blast: 15.17 damage. (https://cod.uberguy.net/html/power.html?power=blaster_ranged.water_blast.hydro_blast&at=blaster)

Arcane Bolt: 15.17 damage (https://cod.uberguy.net/html/power.html?power=pool.sorcery.arcane_bolt&at=blaster)

Water Jet: 20.09 damage (https://cod.uberguy.net/html/power.html?power=pets.water_blast_blaster.water_jet_normal&at=blaster)

 

Hydro Blast inflicts a knockdown effect (Mag .67 KB) 20% of the time, and reduces the target's movement for 10 seconds.

Arcane Bolt inflicts a knockdown effect (Mag .67 KB) 25% of the time.

Water Jet slows the target's movement for 8 seconds and can be double cast if you have enough Tidal Counters. And if you don't have enough? It grants you a Tidal Counter.

 

Compare to Bitter Ice Blast: 23.37 damage and slows for 12 seconds.

Or Executioner's Shot: 15.211 damage and 70% chance of Mag .96 KB; modified by current ammo effect.

 

 

[tidge]

13 minutes ago, Rudra said:

Water Jet slows the target's movement for 8 seconds and can be double cast if you have enough Tidal Counters. And if you don't have enough? It grants you a Tidal Counter.

 

You have to hit with the first cast of Water Jet in order to get a second cast; it isn't automatic.

 

EDIT: IIRC, you also have to hit with a cast in order to get a tidal counter.

Edited March 19, 2023 by tidge

[Rudra]

1 hour ago, tidge said:

 

You have to hit with the first cast of Water Jet in order to get a second cast; it isn't automatic.

 

EDIT: IIRC, you also have to hit with a cast in order to get a tidal counter.

You mean like how you have to hit with your max range snipe after using Aim for it or the accuracy and damage boost go away? That argument fails. All player attacks have to hit. Regardless of what you use in conjunction with it. Like Tidal Counters. Unlike Build Up or Aim though, you can get those counters back with three quick attacks. Provided they hit. The fact an attack can miss is not a good reason to change Water Jet.

 

Edit: Especially since even without the double cast, Water Jet still seems to be more or less on par with other non-snipe T7 attacks. (It has 2 seconds faster recharge and is almost 3 END cheaper than Bitter Ice Blast. So it balances out.)

 

Edit: Maybe Dehydrate and Geyser also need to be tweaked then? They get boosted for having 3 tide power counters too, and the counters also go away when they miss.

Edited March 19, 2023 by Rudra

[Lazarillo]

Water Blast's major issue comes down to the implementation of Tidal Power in general.  Not only, as noted, can a miss throw things off, but since new stacks don't replace/renew old ones, it's far too easy to accidentally end up firing a power with a lower combo level than intended in general (that Water Jet also has the whole lockout thing due to the original devs' grudge against recharge builds at the time prolly doesn't help, either).

[Rudra]

If the tide power counters renewed each time you triggered gaining one after getting the max three count, or even just renewed each time you triggered gaining a counter, that would be great. I have to wonder if it would be OP, but would be nice. As far as the OP itself goes though? It is provably wrong by checking City of Data. Water Jet is as powerful as any other non-snipe T7 attack.

 

Edit: As far as Water Jet's enhanced form being locked out for 15 seconds when used? There is still the tide enhanced Dehydrate, Geyser, and Whirlpool available to make use of those counters.

Edited March 19, 2023 by Rudra

[tidge]

2 hours ago, Rudra said:

You mean like how you have to hit with your max range snipe after using Aim for it or the accuracy and damage boost go away? That argument fails.

 

I think the argument equating Aim with Tidal power fails, because you can almost always get a couple of attacks in with the Aim/Build Up boost, and that boost is the same for all attacks (unlike tide pods). The effect of ToHit for Snipes is capped at 22%; on most build with Snipe it is rather trivial to be sitting at a perma +6% anyway (thanks Kismet!)

[tidge]

3 hours ago, Rudra said:

Edit: Maybe Dehydrate and Geyser also need to be tweaked then? They get boosted for having 3 tide power counters too, and the counters also go away when they miss.

 

The tide pods don't go away on a miss, they go away via elapsed time. I simply find it weird that the T7 plays out like this:

• On a hit, and you had 3x tide power, and it isn't locked out: cast it again to defeat an even-level opponent.
• On a hit, and it is locked out: cast the T2 to defeat an even-level opponent.
• On a hit, and you don't have the 3 tide power: cast the T2 to defeat an even-level opponent.
• On a miss: cast the T2 (twice) to defeat an even-level opponent.

Maybe there are almost as bad other Blaster primary T7 attackss, but I think there are better T5 and T6 attacks.

[Rudra]

1 hour ago, tidge said:

 

I think the argument equating Aim with Tidal power fails, because you can almost always get a couple of attacks in with the Aim/Build Up boost, and that boost is the same for all attacks (unlike tide pods). The effect of ToHit for Snipes is capped at 22%; on most build with Snipe it is rather trivial to be sitting at a perma +6% anyway (thanks Kismet!)

 

4 hours ago, Rudra said:

You mean like how you have to hit with your max range snipe after using Aim for it or the accuracy and damage boost go away?

This assumes you are not already in combat and using the normal form snipe rather than the quick form snipe. With a fairly fast snipe at 1.33 seconds of cast time (1.584 with arcanatime) and 2 seconds of interrupt time before that for 3.33 seconds, plus human motor time of triggering Aim and the time moving the mouse to click the snipe (or the finger to hit the linked button for the snipe attack), and then the time either waiting for the mobs to go "Buh-wha?" and move into normal attack range or you going "damn, missed" and moving into normal attack range, you'll get maybe one more attack in. (I'm not looking at how much of an accuracy boost Aim gives, or how much of a damage boost it gives that you did not include. I'm looking at how using the power can be considered "wasted" because you missed with your only usable attack at the time when using a max range snipe.)

 

1 hour ago, tidge said:

 

The tide pods don't go away on a miss, they go away via elapsed time. I simply find it weird that the T7 plays out like this:

• On a hit, and you had 3x tide power, and it isn't locked out: cast it again to defeat an even-level opponent.
• On a hit, and it is locked out: cast the T2 to defeat an even-level opponent.
• On a hit, and you don't have the 3 tide power: cast the T2 to defeat an even-level opponent.
• On a miss: cast the T2 (twice) to defeat an even-level opponent.

Maybe there are almost as bad other Blaster primary T7 attackss, but I think there are better T5 and T6 attacks.

Then I'm playing a bugged game. Because when I have 3 tide counters and I trigger Dehydrate or Geyser and they miss, the counters still go away because they triggered the enhanced version of the attack. In fact, the only tide counter enhanced power that doesn't suffer this is Whirlpool because it is a targeted area effect that remains in place for a set duration, so it can't technically miss since you are targeting a location when you fire it. (Edit again: And if you aren't losing the counters somehow, then why are you complaining about the miss?)

 

It also doesn't matter if there are better T5 or T6 attacks. You can't compare a singular power like that. Especially since yes, some power sets are going to be stronger than others. So that argument is a tosser too.

 

Water Blast is not the only blast set that lacks Aim. Nor is it the only blast set that lacks a snipe. It is the only blast set with Tidal Counters, and those counters only apply to four powers in the set for use. Like the combo system in Street Justice. You have four powers that count as "finisher moves" in the Water Blast set. (Not surprising since I believe the sets came out at the same time.) Those four powers have enhanced forms that actually function like Street Justice's finishers, but also have normal use forms that can build up the Tidal Counters. Water Jet is comparable to other non-snipe attacks in its tier when you add in END cost, animation time, recharge time, damage, and secondary effects. It may not be the best power in the comparisons, but it is comparable. If you don't like the power and don't want to use it? That's fine. No one is going to force you to use it or make fun of you for not using it. Play however you want. However, that doesn't mean it needs to be changed just because you don't like the power.

 

Edit: Also your chain is wrong. It would go:

    Have 3 counters, trigger Water Jet. Deplete counters. On hit, do enhanced cast and immediately get to trigger Water Jet again for normal damage. Follow with other attack.

    Have 3 counters, trigger Water Jet. Deplete counters. On miss, follow with other attack.

    Have 3 counters, trigger Water Jet. If enhanced form is locked, use normal form and on hit, add counter if became possible. Follow with other attack.

    Have 3 counters, trigger Water Jet. If enhanced form is locked, use normal form and on miss follow with other attack.

    Have less than 3 counters, on hit, add counter and follow with other attack.

    Have less than 3 counters, on miss, follow with other attack.

Edited March 19, 2023 by Rudra

[Zect]

First of all, the T whatever is absolutely meaningless outside of T1 and T2 (usable-while-mezzed, animation-time-normalized standard blasts across all blaster blast sets) and T9 (the nuke). A T5 is not necessarily stronger than a T4: you just get it later.

 

You do not compare powers in the same tier to other powers in the same tier. You compare powers of the same function: nuke to nuke, taoe to taoe, cone to cone, aim to aim.

 

Don't look at the absolute damage. Look at the damage per animation time. Water jet has 77 DPA. That's higher than either the T1 or T2.

 

In terms of DPA, 77 DPA on the strong ST blast is on the lower end, along with such sets as pistols, energy and archery. The good sets have about 100 ish. Fire gets 140+, or something ridiculous like that, because it's fire.

 

Why? Because it has strong aoe; a bevy of useful effects such as -def, slows, knockups and downs; varied damtypes that reduce the risk of running into strongly resistant enemies; ample procbombing opportunities, which need to be factored into a set's balance budget; the ability to self-heal, which only one other blaster primary does. To compensate for this strengths, it has a slight ST weakness. Extremely fair.

Edited March 20, 2023 by Zect

[tidge]

The talk about "wasting" a cast of Aim for a snipe doesn't make sense to me... AFAIK, The extra damage from +ToHit is only on Fast snipes and does nothing for normal (slow) snipes.

 

6 minutes ago, Zect said:

Why? Because it has strong aoe; a bevy of useful effects such as -def, slows, knockups and downs; varied damtypes that reduce the risk of running into strongly resistant enemies; ample procbombing opportunities, which need to be factored into a set's balance budget; the ability to self-heal, which only one other blaster primary does. To compensate for this strengths, it has a slight ST weakness. Extremely fair.

 

I can get behind everything here, except that %proc is not supposed to be factored into set balance; "the game is balanced around IOs".

[Rudra]

25 minutes ago, tidge said:

The talk about "wasting" a cast of Aim for a snipe doesn't make sense to me... AFAIK, The extra damage from +ToHit is only on Fast snipes and does nothing for normal (slow) snipes.

You're joking, right?

 

(Edit: Aim and its other derivatives improve the damage of all attacks made within its duration. Even if the attack's animation goes outside of the buff's duration. It works just as well on normal form snipes as it does quick form snipes. I have seen nothing in City of Data or in the game detailed info box that says otherwise. The only reason why it would not affect a power within its duration is if that power was already functioning at the AT's damage cap.)

Edited March 20, 2023 by Rudra

[tidge]

Two things: (in addition to +ToHit obviously increases the ToHit Chance):

• +ToHit increases the damage of (fast) snipes, up to 22% IIRC
• A slotted Gaussian's %Build Up typically has a 90% (ceiling) chance to ALSO fire in Blaster's Aim-like powers. This buff lasts 10 seconds

I've tested extra ToHit on normal (long) snipes and have not seen a difference. An easy way to test this is to put a Kismet +ToHit piece in a defense toggle. Try both Fast and Slow Snipes with and without the Kismet piece toggled on/slotted (monitor ToHit bonus).

[Rudra]

A damage buff and an accuracy buff are not the same thing.

 

Edit: A +ToHit has absolutely no effect on a power's damage output. It does not matter what grants that +ToHit, it will never affect damage. It only affects your chance to hit.

 

(Edit again: Aim grants both a 50% ToHit buff and a 62.5% damage buff.)

Edited March 20, 2023 by Rudra

[tidge]

Snipes (Fast) get a damage buff from +ToHit.

 

Quote

Powers: Snipes

• General Changes
  • ToHit is no longer required to achieve fast-snipe. Now, combat status determines if snipes are fast or slow, and ToHit buffs increase how much damage fast-snipe inflicts.
  • The snipe will be fast if you have attacked or been attacked in the last 8 seconds; this is the same time as Stalker's Hide.
  • Note that PvP scale is based only around the PvP damage formula. ToHit buffs and debuffs do not change quick snipe damage in PvP.
  • The following fast snipe animations have been synced with their FX, no cast time changes: Moonbeam, Zapp, Sniper Blast, Proton Volley (they all remain at their original 1.33 second duration.)
  • Added a new PVP IO Snipe set "Experienced Marksman"; includes proc that will always turn your Snipes into the fast version.

 

Edited March 20, 2023 by tidge

[Rudra]

Well, that was a dumb change. However, I sit corrected.

[Saiyajinzoningen]

theres a few odd ducks with water blast, for me it's odd how the secondary effect isn't chance to choke target maybe they are saving it for water manipulation?

[Luminara]

8 hours ago, tidge said:

A slotted Gaussian's %Build Up typically has a 90% (ceiling) chance to ALSO fire in Blaster's Aim-like powers. This buff lasts 10 seconds

 

5.25 seconds.

 

https://cod.uberguy.net/html/power.html?power=set_bonus.set_bonus.boost_up

[SwitchFade]

@tidge

 

50+ water/elec named ... iBlap

 

I skipped water jet. It's lackluster and doesn't fit well in attack chain. Other, better powers natively consume tide more effectively in a good rotation and do more damage.

 

In fact, I skipped it on 3 different water toons.

 

 

[Uun]

Threw together a quick comparison of Water Jet (using the base cast time) vs. comparable attacks (excludes DoT for Blaze and Blazing Arrow). Not the best, but clearly not the worst.

 

	Cast	Damage	DPA
Blaze	1.19	132.63	111.64
Bitter Ice Blast	1.32	142.64	108.06
Telekinetic Blast	1.19	122.62	103.22
Screech	1.72	142.64	83.12
Water Jet	1.58	122.62	77.41
Executioner's Shot	1.85	132.63	71.77
Lancer Shot	2.11	132.63	62.80
Blazing Arrow	1.98	122.62	61.93
Power Burst	2.24	132.63	59.10
Cosmic Burst	2.24	132.63	59.10
Entomb	2.24	132.63	59.10
Shout	2.24	122.62	54.64

[Luminara]

3 hours ago, Uun said:

Threw together a quick comparison of Water Jet (using the base cast time) vs. comparable attacks (excludes DoT for Blaze and Blazing Arrow).

 

Blazing Arrow's damage over time doesn't cancel on a missed tick.  In fact, every tick is guaranteed if Blazing Arrow hits.  It should be included.

[Uun]

1 hour ago, Luminara said:

Blazing Arrow's damage over time doesn't cancel on a missed tick.  In fact, every tick is guaranteed if Blazing Arrow hits.  It should be included.

Fixed

 

	Cast	Damage	DPA
Blaze	1.19	132.63	111.64
Bitter Ice Blast	1.32	142.64	108.06
Telekinetic Blast	1.19	122.62	103.22
Screech	1.72	142.64	83.12
Blazing Arrow	1.98	161.72	81.68
Water Jet	1.58	122.62	77.41
Executioner's Shot	1.85	132.63	71.77
Lancer Shot	2.11	132.63	62.80
Power Burst	2.24	132.63	59.10
Cosmic Burst	2.24	132.63	59.10
Entomb	2.24	132.63	59.10
Shout	2.24	122.62	54.64

[ClawsandEffect]

What I'm getting out of that table has nothing to do with Water Jet. 

 

Shout needs some love. There is no reason a power that takes that long to cast should have such poor damage. The only balancing factor I can think of that could explain it is the presence of -res all over the set Shout is in. But I still think a power that slow should hit like a truck. 

[Zeraphia]

On 3/30/2023 at 1:11 AM, ClawsandEffect said:

What I'm getting out of that table has nothing to do with Water Jet. 

 

Shout needs some love. There is no reason a power that takes that long to cast should have such poor damage. The only balancing factor I can think of that could explain it is the presence of -res all over the set Shout is in. But I still think a power that slow should hit like a truck. 

This is a suggestion for another topic. However, the developers in HC have already modified Sonic Blast values iirc, and as such the set is appropriately "balanced" as seen fit. 

 

Personally, I was not happy with the change. But not in the direction you liked, I was unhappy because the only reason (for me) to choose Sonic Blast was because of its -res effects. I didn't like the reduction in -res values. I personally would not be in favor of another nerf to the -res portion, as there exists several other powersets that deliver more damage as alternatives.