The Marvels

[PeregrineFalcon]

It's funny that people do go to the movie theaters now days when they believe that the movie will be good.

https://deadline.com/2023/11/five-nights-at-freddys-killers-of-the-flower-moon-godzilla-minus-one-global-international-box-office-1235594101/

 

But even Forbes knows the real reason that The Marvels did poorly:

https://www.forbes.com/sites/conormurray/2023/11/13/the-marvels-faces-anti-woke-backlash-after-box-office-flop-echoing-captain-marvel-attacks/

 

[Ghost]

28 minutes ago, PeregrineFalcon said:

It's funny that people do go to the movie theaters now days when they believe that the movie will be good.

https://deadline.com/2023/11/five-nights-at-freddys-killers-of-the-flower-moon-godzilla-minus-one-global-international-box-office-1235594101/

 

But even Forbes knows the real reason that The Marvels did poorly:

https://www.forbes.com/sites/conormurray/2023/11/13/the-marvels-faces-anti-woke-backlash-after-box-office-flop-echoing-captain-marvel-attacks/

 

I’m just not buying “the anti-woke” brigade has caused this mess with The Marvels.

Same thing was said about the recent Charlie’s Angels and WW84.  In reality, they were horrible movies.

Truth is this movie went through all types of reshoots and massive editing to fix things - that is never a good sign (see Aquaman 2.  They have the same reported issues, and is also expected to bomb)

 

Are there some that won’t go see it screaming “ woke garbage”?  Of course.  But many more will see it if it’s good.

 

Until the blame placed where it should be - the writers, and the studio for churning out trash - nothing will change.  
People can create all sorts of excuses and point the fingers everywhere but at themselves if they like.  In the end, it won’t bring people to the theaters to watch the movies if they are no good.

I’ve already explained my reasoning for not going to see this, and it has nothing to do with any “woke” nonsense.  

 

Edited November 14, 2023 by Ghost

[PeregrineFalcon]

12 minutes ago, Ghost said:

I’m just not buying “the anti-woke” brigade has caused this mess with The Marvels.

Fair enough, but the box office numbers show that people will still go to the theaters to see movies that are good.

 

Either way, I maintain that the reason that The Marvels hasn't done well isn't because of super hero movie fatigue, or streaming services, it's because a lot of people didn't think that the movie would be any good.

[Ghost]

33 minutes ago, PeregrineFalcon said:

Fair enough, but the box office numbers show that people will still go to the theaters to see movies that are good.

 

Either way, I maintain that the reason that The Marvels hasn't done well isn't because of super hero movie fatigue, or streaming services, it's because a lot of people didn't think that the movie would be any good.

My mistake

I misunderstood you lol

 

I agree.  People didn’t go because it’s a bad movie.

Even the comic fanboys seemed to have stayed away.  They usually are there opening weekend, but not this time

[Troo]

6 hours ago, PeregrineFalcon said:

It's funny that people do go to the movie theaters now days when they believe that the movie will be good.

https://deadline.com/2023/11/five-nights-at-freddys-killers-of-the-flower-moon-godzilla-minus-one-global-international-box-office-1235594101/

 

But even Forbes knows the real reason that The Marvels did poorly:

https://www.forbes.com/sites/conormurray/2023/11/13/the-marvels-faces-anti-woke-backlash-after-box-office-flop-echoing-captain-marvel-attacks/

 

 

Come on. Being realistic, the movie is still likely to profit nicely.

 

It also did well compared to any other movies for the past couple weeks while capturing nearly 60% of the attendance for the top ten movies coming out of the strike without much promotion. Sure it wasn't the 2022 Wakanda Forever, but few movies get that result before Thanksgiving.

 

https://www.boxofficemojo.com/date/?ref_=bo_nb_cso_tab

 

 

Opening on Veterans day weekend can be tough. Marvels ranks 8th on that list with Wakanda Forever ranking #1.

https://www.the-numbers.com/box-office-records/domestic/all-movies/holiday-3-day-opening-weekend/veterans-day

 

Oh and spoiler, Blade is going to be a November entry.

 

 

Edited November 15, 2023 by Troo

[Ghost]

@Troo
 

Reports are that it has to pull 400mill at the box office to break even.

 

Just can’t see that happening when opening weekend didn’t even do 75mill - the numbers are all down hill from here

[Troo]

1 minute ago, Ghost said:

the numbers are all down hill from here

 

Maybe, but there's a reliable pattern for Marvel and Domestic box office. I'd guess domestically they only need hit $195M then it's all gravy

Third weekend could be the plateau. (this doesn't include any international or other)

..and this helps. The rest can be hype and personal grudges.

[Ghost]

Think it’s wishful thinking by you @Troo

 

If you’re right, I’ll gladly say so.

If you’re wrong, I’ll also gladly say so 😈

[biostem]

One of the biggest problems I think both Marvel and Star Wars have experienced in recent years is this tendency to gloss over years or even decade's worth of events in order to rush to "now".  We really needed to see more of, (keeping it vague to avoid spoilers), what happened between Captain Marvel and The Marvels, vs the numerous "info dumps" we're given instead...

[ThaOGDreamWeaver]

5 hours ago, biostem said:

vs the numerous "info dumps" we're given instead...

*Glares at Marvel PR team*

 

STOP WITH THE DAMN SPOILERS IN EPKS, AND BAN ANY SITES THAT SPOILER ENDINGS / POST-CREDS. Then again, it's hard when there's a whole industry of auto-generated article bots grabbing every little detail and rumour and trying to blow it up into a screaming headline article.

 

Also, ya gotta remember that the entire cast were on strike until one day before release weekend: and the Big Bad Mouse were pretty unlikely to get a promo waiver from SAG-AFTRA. So it also hurts a movie when you can't have your actors out there beating the drum on late-nights, using their social presences, or doing those lucrative-and-surprisingly-effective-if-bloody-embarrassing promo deals with car dealerships / fast food joints / biscuits / sanitary products / whatever. I've only seen one tie-in advertised and that was for a security company: it's gotta be a really hard sell when you can't get an actual actor to punt your product.

 

This would have a similar impact to The Flash last year - but for a very different reason, where its lead would have had to be rolled onto any talk show set strapped to a trolley Lecter-style (not that Jimmy Fallon hasn't had worse psychotics on...) 

 

Wondering if Marvels will see an uptick second weekend on word-of-mouth, and if the Marvel PR machine can get back into gear?

 

EDIT: if there's been one fun thing out of this strike, it's the amount of proper Hollywood folks doing the kind of gaijin ads they only used to do for Japan (see: Lost In Translation) in UK markets to keep the ol' cashflow up.

 

We've had Samuel L Jackson shilling crumpets, Gillian Anderson punting mattresses, Owen Wilson and Helena Bonham Carter frothing over sofas, and Benadryl Thunderbox trying to sound even slightly enthusiastic about a dodgy fantasy mobile game... and failing badly. Any more you guys have seen? I think Melissa McCarthy's Booking.com one might have been international...

Edited November 15, 2023 by ThaOGDreamWeaver

[Techwright]

22 hours ago, Ghost said:

@Troo
 

Reports are that it has to pull 400mill at the box office to break even.

 

Is that a number taking into account all the other expenditures like advertising, theater cuts, and such?  Or will those be above and beyond that number?

[Ghost]

13 hours ago, Techwright said:

 

Is that a number taking into account all the other expenditures like advertising, theater cuts, and such?  Or will those be above and beyond that number?

Advertising would drive it higher I imagine.

The amount I quoted takes into account theater cost.

Movie cost roughly $270mill to make - one of the MCUs highest budgets.

They received around $50mill to film in the UK, lowering actual cost to around $220.

Theaters usually get around 40% of ticket sales.

I know advertising costs were cut due to the strike, and not having to fly actors around to promote.  So not exactly sure how much was spent on advertising - in the past, I’ve heard studios double the movies budget for advertising.

 

I think the $400-$450 I’ve seen thrown around may end up being on the low end.

 

 

[battlewraith]

I enjoyed the first Captain Marvel movie. Part of me really wants to get enthused by this one but I can’t. Because the last Dr. Strange movie sucked so badly. Because of that movie, I skipped Quantumania—which my wife and kid saw and claim sucked. So I am definitely burned on Marvel movies.

On 11/14/2023 at 10:20 PM, PeregrineFalcon said:

 

But even Forbes knows the real reason that The Marvels did poorly

 

Did you even read the article? It details reactionary attacks on female centered projects in general and Brie Larson in particular. But it mentions that the first Captain Marvel movie and Barbie, both of which were strongly targeted by he-man woman hater types, we’re both hugely profitable (also the Little Mermaid remake and Elemental did well). The article does not actually claim to know a “real reason” the movie is underperforming. It does relay the thoughts of cultural luminaries like Ben Shapiro and Tim Pool.

[Ghost]

I really enjoyed the first Capt Marvel.  No interest in this one.

Thought Dr Strange MoM was awesome - but I am also a huge fan of the Scarlet Witch character, and I really like what they did with her.

Antman Quantumania I’m torn on.  I thought it was okay, but am confused as to why Marvel chose to job out the next big baddie in his first movie.  
 

Yes, there are haters in this world who will refuse to watch a movie just based on it having a female lead.  
But there are not enough of them to kill a movie.  Just like there are not enough comic book fans to make an MCU movie profitable/record breaking.  It takes the general audience to push a movie over the profit line, or to sink a movie.

Edited November 17, 2023 by Ghost

[Without_Pause]

Looking at numbers The Marvels will clearly bring in less than the latest Ant-Man movie while having better reviews, so it isn't simply that people will go since it is suppose to be good. I haven't seen The Marvels due to being busy. I actually thought Ant-Man was better than how much it got panned, but I did have issues with it. I can't recall what all, but it felt like they could have removed or deemphasized certain characters and used other character way more.

 

Part of the issue here is at some point Marvel can't simply kick out shows and movies without the big name characters and come even remotely close to the same numbers in terms of viewers. Just imagine the Avengers without Iron Man, Cap, Thor, Loki, etc. Even if the movie content itself is really good, it is going to be really difficult to have people simply show up in mass. 

 

'But they did for GotG.'

 

And I don't suggest that as anyway to base on what is going to happen in the future either. I thought Ms. Marvel was fantastic. I'm just not sure how much that character is going to bring people to go to a movie theater. Same can be said for Monica Rambeau. At least people had a talking tree and a talking racoon in GotG. It also helped that movie knew what it was trying to be and absolutely killed at doing it. Again, I do not suggest basing GotG's success on future success of other entities. There's only so many characters and ideas worthy of being a blockbuster. Sony(?) is certainly finding that out as they expand their Spider-Man universe. They are making a Madame Web movie for crying out loud.

[Techwright]

4 hours ago, Without_Pause said:

 I actually thought Ant-Man was better than how much it got panned, but I did have issues with it. I can't recall what all, but it felt like they could have removed or deemphasized certain characters and used other character way more.

 

And I don't suggest that as anyway to base on what is going to happen in the future either. I thought Ms. Marvel was fantastic. I'm just not sure how much that character is going to bring people to go to a movie theater. Same can be said for Monica Rambeau. At least people had a talking tree and a talking racoon in GotG. It also helped that movie knew what it was trying to be and absolutely killed at doing it. Again, I do not suggest basing GotG's success on future success of other entities. There's only so many characters and ideas worthy of being a blockbuster. Sony(?) is certainly finding that out as they expand their Spider-Man universe. They are making a Madame Web movie for crying out loud.

 

I speculate that using lesser known characters is more about increasing their profile and market-ability over just making a blockbuster of a relatively unknown.   Yes, GotG is the ultimate version of this rags-to-riches story, but there are other potentials.  Sony has one big Marvel property to work with: Spider-Man, and all associated character.  By making a Madame Web movie, if it even comes it moderately successful, it will grow their franchise possibilities, having raised recognition of Mme Web from only diehard comic book readers to a more casual, global audience.

 

As to the Ant-Man movie, I'm still baffled...

Spoiler

...why they used Kang the Conqueror only to defeat him, in one movie only, and in a relatively mediocre way, considering the character.  They should have used one of the variants, and left "The Conqueror" as the ultimate in the Kang story arc.  He should have been an absolute nightmare to defeat, possibly over multiple movies.  After all, he gained his title appendage by defeating legions of his variants.

 

[Ghost]

If the rumors are to be believed, Marvel realizes they’ve made a huge mistake with Kang.

Supposedly the next Avengers may not be The Kang Dynasty after all 

[Techwright]

7 minutes ago, Ghost said:

If the rumors are to be believed, Marvel realizes they’ve made a huge mistake with Kang.

Supposedly the next Avengers may not be The Kang Dynasty after all 

 

That's all more about the woes of the actor than the character, isn't it?

[Ghost]

3 minutes ago, Techwright said:

 

That's all more about the woes of the actor than the character, isn't it?

Think it’s both.

They fired the writer back before the strike.

Still have no script.

The director just quit and it was supposed to start shooting next year.  

I think issues with the actor, issues getting a script along with an apparent lack of enthusiasm by the audience, are all contributing to this.

 

Lets be honest.  Kang is a very complicated character.  I think Marvel may be realizing they greatly overestimated their ability to get people to understand and invest in him, the same way they did with Thanos.

 

Of course, the rumors could be false, but it’s popping up more and more every day.

[Ghost]

The rumors were originally they were changing course after Kang Dynasty by having Kang dealt with, and then moving on.

 

Now, they are saying Marvel are talking about dropping him altogether and coming up with a new concept for Avengers 5

 

Personally, I hope they drop him and rebuild now.

Edited November 18, 2023 by Ghost

[Without_Pause]

1 hour ago, Techwright said:

 

I speculate that using lesser known characters is more about increasing their profile and market-ability over just making a blockbuster of a relatively unknown.   Yes, GotG is the ultimate version of this rags-to-riches story, but there are other potentials.  Sony has one big Marvel property to work with: Spider-Man, and all associated character.  By making a Madame Web movie, if it even comes it moderately successful, it will grow their franchise possibilities, having raised recognition of Mme Web from only diehard comic book readers to a more casual, global audience.

It helps to build them if the films are successful. Morbis did $73 million domestically and was more known for being a meme than a good film. The New Mutants film feels completely forgotten as it did just under $24 million domestically. So yes, those things came out, but are they really building anything?

[PeregrineFalcon]

The Marvels is not doing well in the box office.

 

 

 

[Techwright]

23 hours ago, Without_Pause said:

It helps to build them if the films are successful. Morbis did $73 million domestically and was more known for being a meme than a good film. The New Mutants film feels completely forgotten as it did just under $24 million domestically. So yes, those things came out, but are they really building anything?

New Mutants, as I recall, got a very, very late start, with numerous delays, even after it was shot, and then was almost pushed out as a "hey, gotta get this old stuff off the shelf" thing.   The flaw with it, did not lie with it, but with the logistics people who were supposed to promote and push it out better.  (Well, that and Covid screwing everything up at the theaters.)

[Without_Pause]

9 hours ago, Techwright said:

New Mutants, as I recall, got a very, very late start, with numerous delays, even after it was shot, and then was almost pushed out as a "hey, gotta get this old stuff off the shelf" thing.   The flaw with it, did not lie with it, but with the logistics people who were supposed to promote and push it out better.  (Well, that and Covid screwing everything up at the theaters.)

I still have doubts it did much of anything when it hit streaming. Outside of the pandemic, production delays can easily happen with these lesser known titles as well and maybe even more so.

[PeregrineFalcon]

I'll just leave this here.

 

https://www.forbes.com/sites/paultassi/2023/11/20/like-it-or-not-the-marvels-has-now-bombed-in-every-way-possible/

Edited November 21, 2023 by PeregrineFalcon