Making the "Weave" power more accessible

[KaizenSoze]

17 minutes ago, Rudra said:

*raises hand*

 

So the goal isn't fun, it's improved min-maxing/character optimization. Which is full on power creep. Well, maybe power trot. In a game that is already of questionable difficulty to even casual players from all the previous power creep. You see, that is the issue I have with the request. That it is all about improved min-maxing. About freeing up power slots to load up on even more defense, resist, or damage. Nevermind how easy the game already is. Which was the driving factor in the creation of the Hard Mode content. Which with more power slots to better optimize their characters, will eventually get to the point of even that not being a challenge.

 

Edit: And by the way, Maneuvers is +DEF (All), not +Def (Some).

 

Edit: You might be surprised by the things you can pair up when you don't chase the Holy Quad. You may not as well. Just saying there are lots of options for character building when you don't limit yourself to the Holy Quad.

I find building toons that soft cap several defense types fun. On my VEATs I have several builds that do not need to take the Quad as you call it. So, I am very aware that it is not required for all builds.

 

The game for the most part is easy, once you get money to IO out your builds. But that is a different issue from this specific request. The most serious power creep issues in the game are Incarnates, IOs, and page five level availability. But would not want to play the game w/o IOs and page five level changes now that I have gotten use to them. Incarnates, that is another entire thread. So, let's not go there.

 

This request is small, the power creep be small, and is mostly a quality of life improvement. I ask again if you were chasing the Quad and you could skip boxing and kick. What power would you take with the extra selection? Would you have any slots for it?

[Rudra]

18 minutes ago, KaizenSoze said:

This request is small, the power creep be small, and is mostly a quality of life improvement.

That is the nature of power creep. A series of small changes that progressively add up. In a game already inundated with power creep. Which is why players like me are so opposed to any further power creep.

 

21 minutes ago, KaizenSoze said:

I ask again if you were chasing the Quad and you could skip boxing and kick. What power would you take with the extra selection? Would you have any slots for it?

I don't chase the Holy Quad. I absolutely refuse to have Hasten on any of my characters, for instance. I also have characters that take Boxing and/or Kick as part of their attack chain. There are players that take Boxing and/or Kick to use as mules. I haven't seen any such builds, but they were mentioned at least a few times on these forums. As for what others would take in lieu of Boxing or Kick? I can't speak for them. All I know is that every time this is brought up, it is specifically to make min-max characters even more optimized and over-powered for the game content.

 

25 minutes ago, KaizenSoze said:

I find building toons that soft cap several defense types fun.

I also very much enjoy building characters. Part of the fun for me in the game is figuring out what powers are actually appropriate for the character even from their primary and secondary pools, let alone the power pools. (Alt-itis is not a curse or disease, it is an endless adventure.) I especially enjoy looking at the requirements to unlock powers my characters absolutely need for their concept and figuring out how to make all that work. And the more requirements are removed "for the sake of accessiblity", the less fun I find building my characters becomes. The changes that have been asked for, and given in... page 5?... has done a lot to damper the joy I have in making my characters. I enjoy threading the needle on my builds. I enjoy figuring out how to fit the things I need or want on the character. However, the requests have consistently been more and more to take that away. Making the character building less and less interesting, and less and less fun.

 

With the power level availability changes, my characters can now all be front-loaded for effectiveness. Buh-bye challenge of figuring out what powers to take to build to the higher tier powers. I can be fully built for my attack chain by level 26 now. And a solid attack chain makes the need for defense/resist a lot less necessary. Or I can build my armored characters to be virtually unkillable by around level 20 now. I'm only using the T1-T3 attacks? Given that character can't be hurt, that is more than sufficient. And now here we are again, with yet another request to make building uber-characters even easier. I'm stuck sitting here wondering when the character building is going to get boring enough that I just leave the game. (Which I did consider when they made powers available earlier for the already stated reasons.) Because like everyone else, I've done all the game content repeatedly. (I haven't done any Hard Mode content yet, but I main a MM and I expect that to be an unwelcome participant. And as I have no interest in leading a team, I leave that alone.)

[megaericzero]

That's cool that you like playing builds with softcapped defense. Genuinely. "Can't touch this" builds are fun. Extreme recharge builds can be fun too. A lot of playstyles can be fun. Some types of builds are better lent to specific archetypes'/sets' built-in playstyle or flavoring. You can make a blaptroller, offender, etc. but it's going to take some sacrifices. Are there specific archetypes this change to weave is meant to be for and what is the bar for difficulty?

 

I am with you 100% that boxing and kick feel like a useless pick. I don't think that making weave more accessible is the solution, though. In a world where cross punch wasn't a bandaid solution that's already implemented, adding powerful utility to one of them like Air Superiority's knockdown would be a better route.

 

Defense has extreme value in this game despite the 5% ceiling. Not getting hit means you also don't take debuffs or mez and your max HP value matters less and less as you approach the cap. It also doesn't soft cap at different values so a squishy can be as evasive as anyone else. Add on top of that the fact that you can nickel-and-dime your defense up with pools - unlike resist or healing. It's intentional that weave is behind two prerequisites given it's the biggest value among multiple pool options.

Edited June 24, 2023 by megaericzero
forgot an apostrophe

[twozerofoxtrot]

On 6/23/2023 at 7:18 AM, Shiro-Nethermore said:

if you look at it in a lore way why would any one be a super hero with out knowing how to fight?

 

 

[KaizenSoze]

9 hours ago, Rudra said:

I also very much enjoy building characters. Part of the fun for me in the game is figuring out what powers are actually appropriate for the character even from their primary and secondary pools, let alone the power pools. (Alt-itis is not a curse or disease, it is an endless adventure.) I especially enjoy looking at the requirements to unlock powers my characters absolutely need for their concept and figuring out how to make all that work. And the more requirements are removed "for the sake of accessiblity", the less fun I find building my characters becomes. The changes that have been asked for, and given in... page 5?... has done a lot to damper the joy I have in making my characters. I enjoy threading the needle on my builds. I enjoy figuring out how to fit the things I need or want on the character. However, the requests have consistently been more and more to take that away. Making the character building less and less interesting, and less and less fun.

 

With the power level availability changes, my characters can now all be front-loaded for effectiveness. Buh-bye challenge of figuring out what powers to take to build to the higher tier powers. I can be fully built for my attack chain by level 26 now. And a solid attack chain makes the need for defense/resist a lot less necessary. Or I can build my armored characters to be virtually unkillable by around level 20 now. I'm only using the T1-T3 attacks? Given that character can't be hurt, that is more than sufficient. And now here we are again, with yet another request to make building uber-characters even easier. I'm stuck sitting here wondering when the character building is going to get boring enough that I just leave the game. (Which I did consider when they made powers available earlier for the already stated reasons.) Because like everyone else, I've done all the game content repeatedly. (I haven't done any Hard Mode content yet, but I main a MM and I expect that to be an unwelcome participant. And as I have no interest in leading a team, I leave that alone.)

We are obviously never going to agree on this topic. But nothing suggested in this thread is going stop you from building the way you want to.

 

All these concern about power creep should be in my opinion should be directed at the devs on completely different topics. Like I mentioned before, Incarnates, IOs, and level available are the real power creep. Also, the mobs really could use a tune up power wise. The attack types and aggro barely made anything harder. Despite all the apocalyptic predictions from some posters. You were not one of those posters to be clear.

 

I have run my Ninja/TA MM through a two star ITF hard mode. It was fun and effective, except for the first part of the Rommy fight in the last mission.

 

Play what you want, how you want, there is a vet 400 petless demon MM on Excelsior I would run into on ITFs. They were obviously having fun despite playing a gimp build and I would never reject such a player from my teams. 

 

 

[SwitchFade]

12 hours ago, honoroit said:

but its boring. to have to do it every time. after hundreds.

 

its boring. 

I don't find it boring, I find it fun.

 

Is my perspective valid?

[honoroit]

2 hours ago, SwitchFade said:

I don't find it boring, I find it fun.

 

Is my perspective valid?

 

sure, but given druthers would you not rather have a free power choice to pick up:

 

any given other pp available?

 

fire breath on fire blast?

 

black hole on dark affinity?

 

inertial reduction on kin?

 

thaw on thermal? clarity on sonic?

or room for the rez in some builds?

or dip med pool on a healer?

 

repulsion field toggles?

 

personal force field?

 

a good couple dozen others that end up being sidelined because you need to get then unbar kick/punch?

(better than 'kick' - popular dc universe super hero raven defends self using signature light magicks)

Edited June 24, 2023 by honoroit

[lemming]

24 minutes ago, honoroit said:

fire breath on fire blast?

inertial reduction on kin?

or room for the rez in some builds?

repulsion field toggles?

personal force field?

Fire Breath is almost always taken

inertial reduction is an always since I normally don't bother with a travel pool with my kinetics.  (Maybe tp target)

If you have enough recharge in your rez, you don't need defense. 😉  (normally this is for my blasters, melee tend to actually be tough enough to not need rez)

With the change to repulsion field toggles, their a bit more interesting.

I find PFF handy

 

Of course, I think the characters in regards to this, most don't have the fighting pool.   Granted, I tend to go with the fighting pool for my agro magnets and manuevers with my other chars since that tends to help the actual agro magnets.

[SwitchFade]

1 hour ago, honoroit said:

 

sure, but given druthers would you not rather have a free power choice to pick up:

 

any given other pp available?

 

fire breath on fire blast?

 

black hole on dark affinity?

 

inertial reduction on kin?

 

thaw on thermal? clarity on sonic?

or room for the rez in some builds?

or dip med pool on a healer?

 

repulsion field toggles?

 

personal force field?

 

a good couple dozen others that end up being sidelined because you need to get then unbar kick/punch?

(better than 'kick' - popular dc universe super hero raven defends self using signature light magicks)

That's a lot of assumptions. How do you know I don't like kick? As I just said, I find it fun.

 

What makes those other choices more fun for ME?

 

The statement "would you not" is a tactic to set up the opposing view to be defensive and defend why they would not, which is an argumentative fallacy, sorry but you still need to persuade me why any of those choices you see as more fun, would -in fact- be more fun to ME.

 

As I said, I think the fighting pool is fun, and hard no vote to changes proposed herein, as they are less fun.

 

So, do you have supporting evidence, reasoning and direct benefits to my fun factor you can provide me with to persuade me?

[Rudra]

4 hours ago, KaizenSoze said:

We are obviously never going to agree on this topic. But nothing suggested in this thread is going stop you from building the way you want to.

From the day the game launched, players could choose to take powers that they had no intentions of using for the sake of taking them. No one does this.

 

Taking a power because it is thematic for the character even if it won't really be used is one thing. (Edit: For instance, I took Phase Shift on a character because it was thematic, back when the power was actually worth having. I kept it after it became useless to me because it was thematic. Building for theme is a good thing to me.) Taking a power that you will not be using that is not a prerequisite for something else just for the sake of hampering your build is something else.

 

I enjoy looking at the options and figuring out how to get to what I want for the character through the roadblocks and hurdles of the prerequisites. Take those away, and all I have left is how to optimize the character for peak efficiency. Which is a lot less interesting. You are telling me that my only option is to only look at min-maxing and to hell with the challenge of figuring out how to get something incorporated into the build. Why would anyone just take random powers that aren't needed for some reason to access something else? Your response makes absolutely no sense to me.

 

You are correct about us never going to agree on this however. So I'm just going to leave our discussion here. At least for now.

Edited June 24, 2023 by Rudra

[honoroit]

26 minutes ago, SwitchFade said:

given druthers would you not rather... (a series of ? as logical fallacy. pfft.)

27 minutes ago, SwitchFade said:

but you still need to persuade me

 

oh I really don't, nor do i wish to - you seem slimy - and thank you.

[Mr. Apocalypse]

On 6/22/2023 at 11:19 AM, Shiro-Nethermore said:

My suggestion is to remove the requirement to have boxing or kick before acquiring the weave ability in the fighting tree.
 I see a lot of player builds that utilize weave but then don't even put handsets into boxing which they only took because they had to.
 So if it is at all possible I think it would make the game there's even only just a tiny bit more fun to have this change.

Thank you for your time

 

Absolute Hard NO!

 

enough with removing requirements for things.  Boxing/Kick is the price you pay, if you want the benefits of tough and weave!

[SwitchFade]

11 minutes ago, honoroit said:

oh I really don't, nor do i wish to - you seem slimy - and thank you.

Personal attacks only serve to undeacore that your proposition has little merit. Your declaration that you do not want to persuade me to agree with you demonstrates you aren't serious about the proposed suggestion.

 

As such, your audience adjourns convinced your position is undesirable.

[honoroit]

8 minutes ago, SwitchFade said:

Personal attacks only serve to undeacore that your proposition has little merit. Your declaration that you do not want to persuade me to agree with you demonstrates you aren't serious about the proposed suggestion.

 

As such, your audience adjourns convinced your position is undesirable.

 

 

well, its more about the presumption of an adjudication, but you do you.

[Outrider_01]

Hard pass

 

Weave is +Def all, but the values are double of CJ or HV combined. if you reduce the level, the defense will get halved and probably be typed or positional; like how tough is only S/L (which makes no sense, really should at least be 5% resist on top of S/L resist to help fill in some holes).  Endurance may be increased as well; its too good for too many power sets that already have defense and more valuable for non defense sets to pick up. 

 

It will greatly benefit melee and sents more then any squishy to be able to fit just one power for defense because, a defense set suddenly has s 2 free powers yet a squishy still needs to pick any 2 other powers from the primary/secondary and heavy slot to make up the difference to reach soft cap which puts the squishy at a disadvantage until late game where as the defense will benefit much earlier in the game.

[Chance Jackson]

5 hours ago, Mr. Apocalypse said:

Absolute Hard NO!

 

enough with removing requirements for things.  Boxing/Kick is the price you pay, if you want the benefits of tough and weave!

Why don't you keep paying that price which you seem to think is worthwhile & someone else, who is not you, can not do that, & get something they themselves want for the power pick.

 

I for one would love to remove these largely arbitrary requirements from desired power picks. Boxing/weave would be gone from so many builds because they just aren't worth a pick on their own merits which should be the only rationale for why a power should be picked.

[Chance Jackson]

4 hours ago, Outrider_01 said:

Hard pass

 

Weave is +Def all, but the values are double of CJ or HV combined. if you reduce the level, the defense will get halved and probably be typed or positional; like how tough is only S/L (which makes no sense, really should at least be 5% resist on top of S/L resist to help fill in some holes).  Endurance may be increased as well; its too good for too many power sets that already have defense and more valuable for non defense sets to pick up. 

 

It will greatly benefit melee and sents more then any squishy to be able to fit just one power for defense because, a defense set suddenly has s 2 free powers yet a squishy still needs to pick any 2 other powers from the primary/secondary and heavy slot to make up the difference to reach soft cap which puts the squishy at a disadvantage until late game where as the defense will benefit much earlier in the game.

Hover & CJ do much more than just provide def while Def is all weave does so there is no need for it to be nerfed

[Mr. Apocalypse]

5 hours ago, Chance Jackson said:

Why don't you keep paying that price which you seem to think is worthwhile & someone else, who is not you, can not do that, & get something they themselves want for the power pick.

 

I for one would love to remove these largely arbitrary requirements from desired power picks. Boxing/weave would be gone from so many builds because they just aren't worth a pick on their own merits which should be the only rationale for why a power should be picked.

To me, It's all about power creep, where does it end. may as well just demand it be made inherent.  it affects everyone, obviously if the requirement was removed, I would ditch boxing/kick. my problem is opening the door for an additional power to be selected, and the unintended consequences that go along.

 

It seems the only way to make people happy in a game is to continually remove all difficulties or completely change the dynamics of the game in order to remove some little obstacle in the way of their own desire for perfection. The name of the pool is"fighting" so shouldn't some aspect of fighting be selected in the process. 

Edited June 25, 2023 by Mr. Apocalypse
grammer/spelling

[honoroit]

 

43 minutes ago, Mr. Apocalypse said:

The name of the pool is"fighting" so shouldnt some aspect of fighting be selected in the process

 

from someone who's been jumped by thugs on the street, attacked by being hit to the ground from the back of the head, and beaten, for lols?, I can tell you from lived experience - fighting does not always involve knowing how to kick or punch.  unfortunately I am neither tough, nor can I weave.

 

PS - i will never go back to seattle, saw crime there you wouldn't believe, children in 'youth' uniforms, prostitutes in chains (i shit you not) at midday, hard drug use rampant, visible, violence.  a cess pit, mismanaged clearly, and policemen with tattoo'd swasticas on their arms.  military surplus or otherwise obtained non-civilian grade vehicles being paraded about. people buying SWAT vehicles that were somehow for sale.  a man on a bus saluting the nth reich, and me glancing annoyed, only to be whispered to to keep my eyes down.  I will never go back to seattle.

 

a VERY long way from the nation's capital, is one way to put it.

Edited June 25, 2023 by honoroit

[Rudra]

2 hours ago, Chance Jackson said:

Hover & CJ do much more than just provide def while Def is all weave does so there is no need for it to be nerfed

Incorrect.

https://cod.uberguy.net/html/power.html?power=pool.fighting.weave&at=blaster

 

Weave is both +DEF (All) equal to twice the second best defensive buffs in the pool powers and it grants +48.44% immobilization resistance. As such, if it was made to no longer have its prerequisites, it is very likely it would be nerfed to compensate.

 

2 hours ago, Mr. Apocalypse said:

To me, It's all about power creep, where does it end. may as well just demand it be made inherent.  it affects everyone, obviously if the requirement was removed, I would ditch boxing/kick. my problem is opening the door for an additonal power to be selected, and the unitended consequencis that go along.

 

It seems the only way to make people happy in a game is to continually remove all difficulties or completely change the dynamics of the game in order to remove some little obstacle in the way of thier own desire for perfection. The name of the pool is"fighting" so shouldnt some aspect of fighting be selected in the process. 

Earlier in the thread, it was requested it be made inherent since there was opposition to it not have its prerequisites. So even this power creep thread saw power creep.

[Rudra]

On 6/22/2023 at 4:18 PM, Shiro-Nethermore said:

i mean just having all of the fighting skills as inherent may be an idea as if you look at it in a lore way why would any one be a super hero with out knowing how to fight? lol 

Right. Pics or it never happened. Here's the quote.

[Rudra]

1 hour ago, honoroit said:

 

 

from someone who's been jumped by thugs on the street, attacked by being hit to the ground from the back of the head, and beaten, for lols?, I can tell you from lived experience - fighting does not always involve knowing how to kick or punch.  unfortunately I am neither tough, nor can I weave.

 

PS - i will never go back to seattle, saw crime there you wouldn't believe, children in 'youth' uniforms, prostitutes in chains (i shit you not) at midday, hard drug use rampant, visible, violence.  a cess pit, mismanaged clearly, and policemen with tattoo'd swasticas on their arms.  military surplus or otherwise obtained non-civilian grade vehicles being paraded about. people buying SWAT vehicles that were somehow for sale.  a man on a bus saluting the nth reich, and me glancing annoyed, only to be whispered to to keep my eyes down.  I will never go back to seattle.

 

a VERY long way from the nation's capital, is one way to put it.

Training to fight does. I am sorry about your experiences, but you aren't a super hero/villain. I am also unaware of whether or not you have received any dedicated hand-to-hand training, but any training I saw or underwent taught the strikes and blocks first, and you built up your defenses when you learned the practical side during the sparring after.

[Chance Jackson]

56 minutes ago, Rudra said:

Incorrect.

https://cod.uberguy.net/html/power.html?power=pool.fighting.weave&at=blaster

 

Weave is both +DEF (All) equal to twice the second best defensive buffs in the pool powers and it grants +48.44% immobilization resistance. As such, if it was made to no longer have its prerequisites, it is very likely it would be nerfed to compensate.

 

Earlier in the thread, it was requested it be made inherent since there was opposition to it not have its prerequisites. So even this power creep thread saw power creep.

Iirc Mez resistance unlike Mez protection only lowers the time you're under the effect of said Mez, immob not even detoggling back when that was a thing makes immob resistance even more negligible than resistance to any other mez

[Rudra]

6 minutes ago, Chance Jackson said:

Iirc Mez resistance unlike Mez protection only lowers the time you're under the effect of said Mez, immob not even detoggling back when that was a thing makes immob resistance even more negligible than resistance to any other mez

Correct, resistance reduces the duration, it does not prevent the effect. And there have even been calls to change those resists to protection. (Yet more power creep.) However, immobs aren't as worthless as your statement seems to imply. When things go sideways and you need to bail, being immob'ed is a good way to kill PCs. A good example is Malta. Sapper saps your END pool to 0 and a Tactical Operative immobs you, things can get ugly in a hurry.

 

Or the nuisance factor. You're on a team, the team clears and moves on, meanwhile you're stuck waiting for the immob binding you to wear off.

 

These situations can be dealt with by popping a Breakfree if you have one or have 3 of another to make one. If you lack any and don't have the requisite duplicates though? It gets annoying and/or frustrating fast. (At least it does for me.)

 

Situational usefulness aside, the point of my response was to point out that Weave provides double the buff of the closest pool power buffs for defense and it also provides added functionality. Regardless of how others may view that added functionality. Two reasons why if Weave were to have no or reduced prerequisites, it would most likely be nerfed.

[Captain Fabulous]

4 hours ago, Chance Jackson said:

I for one would love to remove these largely arbitrary requirements from desired power picks. Boxing/weave would be gone from so many builds because they just aren't worth a pick on their own merits which should be the only rationale for why a power should be picked.

Exactly this. If a power has little to no merit of its own it shouldn't be a power people are forced to take in order to get a power they do want. There are so many good T3-T5 pool powers that most people never get to take because allocating multiple slots for useless or substandard prerequisites simply isn't viable for most builds. This is a prime example of Jack's twisted sense of "balance" that only detracts from the enjoyment of the game, not enhance it (right up there with his believing dying a lot is fun). Had the prerequisites never existed no one in their right mind would be advocating for them now -- we would all be enjoying greater build diversity and not being saddled with useless powers we don't want and will never use. If the best answer one can provide as to why the prerequisite should be there is "because I think it should be", sorry, that's not a good enough reason.