Loki Season 2

[Techwright]

Frankly, whether multiverse or not, the MCU has suffered greatly from unsteady writing.  The occasional lackluster movie or show is bound to happen, but I've seen multiple shows now that start off strong and lose their way in the middle.  They may recover for a time, but the ending is mushy.  They're having the same problem over at Lucasfilms, so maybe the problem starts higher than the individual franchises.

 

They very much need to propel this chapter of the MCU forward to its conclusion.  Admittedly they've had a troublesome time due to COVID years and now the writers' strike and Jonathan Majors' legal charges (and he's been rescheduled to Nov. 29).  But the public has now long been aware of the re-acquisition of rights for the X-men and for the Fantastic Four, and dragging out B-listers (sorry, that was unkind) lesser-known Marvel characters, combined with the writing issues, is simply turning rabid fans into "meh" folk.  If the rumors of using the multi-verse storyline to launch a crisis that will reboot everything into a new timeline are true, then this is where we need to go...soon.  

 

Oh, and I disagree with those stating that the original Avengers actors need to return for a full compliment of new movies.  Some even claiming this to be leaked info.  First, it would cheapen the end of at least 3 of the characters, and second, the actors are human, and aging. While Tony Stark might wear a power suit well into his 80s, Chris Evans and ScarJo can't project super strength, swift attacks, and resilience for another decade.  Maybe a couple of multiverse cameos as alternates of their characters, but it will need to be new actors taking new interpretations of the roles.

[Techwright]

Season 2 Episode 4

 

This time, I'm filling this in as I watch, so some of the stuff I question may be explained later in the show.

Spoiler

Curiously, the recap at the beginning focused on a line from O.B. to Loki:  "Remember, green means prune."  When that first aired, I just focused on the the device, saw the green background to the meter, and thought nothing further.  But to include it in the recap seemed odd.  The Lokis use green magic in the MCU.  Might the line from O.B. hold a double meaning?

 

The "I'm sorry" from the playback of He Who Remains: that wasn't a cavalier statement, there was real sorrow in it.  Miss Minutes didn't explain that (probably because doing so would undermine her wishes.)  Curious to see if that comes back up in this episode or the series.  Of course, the other question is: why was the mind wipe necessary?

 

O.B. and Victor being unsure who first wrote the manual seems to lend credence to the theory that maybe O.B. is a Kang variant.  That or a 3rd party wrote the manual and the truth got lost somewhere along the line.

 

O.B.'s cute apology for not having the great model to scale and painted correctly had to have been lifted from Doc Brown's model apologies in the Back to the Future franchise.

 

Why on earth did the TVA leave that death machine in the prison chamber?  That made no sense, and cheapened the attack.  Had Renslayer brought it in, that would have been different.

 

Why all the focus on a hot chocolate machine?

 

Oh, so "green means prune" in the recap was to set the stage for future Loki to prune past Loki.  Got it.

 

And the question of the phone call is now answered.  That still leaves the question of who put the reel-to-reel tapes out there for Loki to listen to.  The dialog matched the video Miss Minutes played, but I'm unclear whether she left the reel-to-reel recordings.

 

With Renslayer and Miss Minutes down, either they're going to bring in new antagonists, or there's a massive reboot coming.

 

Well that was an unexpected ending.  I wasn't sure Victor Timely would survive, but I didn't expect everything that did happen.  I'd say a massive reboot is coming.  I suspect this may be the looping that the names Mobius and Oroborous both imply, as well as the TVA hourglass motif that appears to be a pointy figure-8 loop.

 

One thing that has bugged me for a while now:  Isn't the time loom a construct?  What preceded the loom?  It seems an artificial construct, and that implies that the "sacred timeline" is not the one main timeline, but an artificial construct itself.  Un-loomed time may have a natural essence that is ultimately healthier.  If the writers are worth their salt, it would have to have had natural branches, which would have led to the first Kang War, in turn resulting in the loom, whichever Kang variant first built it.

 

Timely has been a far more interesting variant than Kang ever was, and for that matter, the screeching variant hordes seen in the post credits scene of Quantumania.  It's because he's on the fence, to all appearances, and unless truly dead, can still go either way after a reboot.

 

 

 

[ThaOGDreamWeaver]

Sooo, that happened. Not sure I can add much to m'learned coll's assessment, other than...

Spoiler

 

16 hours ago, Techwright said:

It's because he's on the fence, to all appearances, and unless truly dead, can still go either way after a reboot.

 

It's gonna be a whole new world when everyone recovers from whatever the blast wave did to them. I suspect - given what happened to Loki in Ep1 - that spaghettification is survivable, if unpleasantly like being drunk. [How is being drunk unpleasant? - Ed] Try asking a glass of water. So Victor may be around still, but the TVA's structural failure may unleash dozens of variants of everyone.

 

Edited October 27, 2023 by ThaOGDreamWeaver

[Mr. Vee]

that last ep 5 line was so cringe

[ThaOGDreamWeaver]

On 11/4/2023 at 4:25 PM, Mr. Vee said:

that last ep 5 line was so cringe

It was a pretty odd little backstory bottle episode, which felt like trying to pull things back together after that mid-season cliff-hanger (well, cliff fall off and explode).

OB/AD was his entertaining usual self, but finally seeing what all the jetski mania was about was a little bit of a letdown (possibly intentional). 

Sylvie's bit was the only part that seemed to all hang together, until that fell apart.

 

Good needle drop in that scene... even though it's a weird continuity moment as it's the last song on Side 2...

 

Edited November 6, 2023 by ThaOGDreamWeaver

[Glacier Peak]

Boy that ending weaved together nicely 😄 

[Without_Pause]

My complaint with Disney is how often we know the ending and it just feels like we are here for the journey. Loki is pure "Hold my flask."

[ThaOGDreamWeaver]

4 hours ago, Without_Pause said:

My complaint with Disney is how often we know the ending and it just feels like we are here for the journey. Loki is pure "Hold my flask."

I am kinda sad that while the ending did tie everything together in a neat little bow (or bough?)...

...it's so neat, and these characters have the right endings - tragic, noble, purposeful, and enduring - that this is where the book closes for them. 

 

If this has an effect on the MCU as a whole, it may be that...

Spoiler

With the TVA now dedicated to tracking and neutralising Kangs specifically, rather than wiping out every Variant of everyone, how do we get to the Kang Dynasty movie, or can they simply cancel it and move on to working with Doom instead?

 

For Doom is a fine villain, far better than any Kangs, and maybe even the instigator of such Kangs. And they should not continue with their ramblings of multiversal takeover for DOOM's ramblings are the ramblings to obeyed for he is DOOM, supreme leader, and all-around dictator! Don't you see!?!? All you Kangs are DOOM's plan! So your plans are DOOM's plans, because you made plans and DOOM's plan was to make you! DOOM plans to rule the planet, not to have Kangs plan to stop DOOM's rise which is inevitable and yet you oppose such inevitability leading to your inevitable DOOM!

 

...ahem.

 

Yeah, that could work.

 

Edited November 10, 2023 by ThaOGDreamWeaver

[Without_Pause]

Spoiler

Tom has done a ton of MCU, so this is an easy way to do a break for him. Some of the actors in the series said their thanks online so they're obviously not doing a S3. Due to Jonathon Major's legal issues, I don't think Marvel fully knows what's going on. I REALLY doubt that's Loki's fate when it is all said and done.

 

[Techwright]

15 hours ago, ThaOGDreamWeaver said:

I am kinda sad that while the ending did tie everything together in a neat little bow (or bough?)...

...it's so neat, and these characters have the right endings - tragic, noble, purposeful, and enduring - that this is where the book closes for them. 

 

If this has an effect on the MCU as a whole, it may be that...

  Hide contents

With the TVA now dedicated to tracking and neutralising Kangs specifically, rather than wiping out every Variant of everyone, how do we get to the Kang Dynasty movie, or can they simply cancel it and move on to working with Doom instead?

 

For Doom is a fine villain, far better than any Kangs, and maybe even the instigator of such Kangs. And they should not continue with their ramblings of multiversal takeover for DOOM's ramblings are the ramblings to obeyed for he is DOOM, supreme leader, and all-around dictator! Don't you see!?!? All you Kangs are DOOM's plan! So your plans are DOOM's plans, because you made plans and DOOM's plan was to make you! DOOM plans to rule the planet, not to have Kangs plan to stop DOOM's rise which is inevitable and yet you oppose such inevitability leading to your inevitable DOOM!

 

...ahem.

 

Yeah, that could work.

 

People have been declaring for a while now that the MCU is doomed. 

*ahem*

 

As to the ending of season 2 of Loki:

Spoiler

Most of the characters have the potential to return, and given the popularity of both Mobius and O.B., I could see scripts for other stories being re-written to include them.  I cannot see Mobius remaining where he is for too long: there's another version of himself raising his kids.  Sylvie seems the most likely to make a reappearance, and I wonder if she might join one of the supergroups gradually forming, either the Thunderbolts or the young Avengers team (maybe as an older mentor?)  I wonder what happened to Brad after the many resets?  Victor may not have received the manual, but he is still alive.  I'd not be surprised if he surfaces again.  The one Kang variant to seemingly be of integrity (even if he has the potential to again become a confidence trickster) would be a fascinating contrast standing up to a multiverse of Kangs.

 

Loki's end is interesting.  Someone in a chat elsewhere pointed out that this is essentially the fulfillment of Sif's deriding comment (now seeming more like prophecy or curse) to Loki, that he'd always be alone.  His fate really seems like the mythologies of old, like that of Tantalus, for example, except that Loki chose this fate for the good of others (not unlike Prometheus), rather than return to a sacred timeline, and all that entailed.

 

I've heard someone call the timeline tree Yggdrasil, but that tree is dimensional and only connected 9 realms, not the vastness of a multi-verse. 

 

It's interesting how they used the color green at the end.  In the MCU color guide for powers, green is enchantment power.  Green is the color of Time when dealing with Infinity Gems, and of course green is widely used as a representation of life, especially plant life.  Loki weaves these three concepts together to create the multiverse tree.

 

Series Loki's ending actually gives them an out in regards to Jonathan Majors, should they need it.  The resetting of the multi-verse by transformation into the multiverse tree, the resetting of Victor Timely, and the already established canon that variants can look and act remarkably different from each other, gives the ability to move on from Majors, if need be, and cast another actor, or perhaps several actors, as Kang variants.

 

I do have to give props to Majors for that last episode.  Both Victor Timely and He Who Remains were fascinating to watch.

 

[ThaOGDreamWeaver]

Note from the writer via Cinemablend - and many, many auto-generated 'splainer articles...

Spoiler

"We approached this as like two halves of a book. Season one, first half. Season two, we close the book on Loki and the TVA. Where it goes beyond that, I don't know. I just wanted to tell a full and complete story across those two seasons," said Eric Martin (head writer).

 

In a separate interview, Loki producer Kevin Wright added, "We certainly did not develop this season going, 'We have to tee up season 3,' in the way that we did with season 1, where there was a very specific, 'Hey, we’re coming back.' But I also think that where this show goes, there certainly can be many, many, many more stories told with Loki in the 'Loki' world, and in other worlds connected to Loki, the character."

 

Given that Tom was series producer too on this, finding a classically-inspired, noble and glorious purpose for his character is a great way to sign off with it. He earned his godhood... and everything that goes with it. Fade to black, roll credits.

 

But that said... 

 

...if ever he wants to don the helmet again - and I think he'd be very welcome to, as long as he wants to - there's now going to be a whole bunch of different Lokis out there he could be. And that gives an actor options.

 

Edited November 11, 2023 by ThaOGDreamWeaver

[Techwright]

9 hours ago, ThaOGDreamWeaver said:

Note from the writer via Cinemablend - and many, many auto-generated 'splainer articles...

  Hide contents

"We approached this as like two halves of a book. Season one, first half. Season two, we close the book on Loki and the TVA. Where it goes beyond that, I don't know. I just wanted to tell a full and complete story across those two seasons," said Eric Martin (head writer).

 

In a separate interview, Loki producer Kevin Wright added, "We certainly did not develop this season going, 'We have to tee up season 3,' in the way that we did with season 1, where there was a very specific, 'Hey, we’re coming back.' But I also think that where this show goes, there certainly can be many, many, many more stories told with Loki in the 'Loki' world, and in other worlds connected to Loki, the character."

 

Given that Tom was series producer too on this, finding a classically-inspired, noble and glorious purpose for his character is a great way to sign off with it. He earned his godhood... and everything that goes with it. Fade to black, roll credits.

 

But that said... 

 

...if ever he wants to don the helmet again - and I think he'd be very welcome to, as long as he wants to - there's now going to be a whole bunch of different Lokis out there he could be. And that gives an actor options.

 

 

 

There's going to soon be a point...

Spoiler

At which all the original Avengers actors are physically not going to be able to perform the roles.  Comics suspend aging in a way real-world movies just can't.  This is probably the best tie-up for Tom's interpretation of Loki, as Endgame was for RDJ's Tony Stark.  That said,  Loki has gained knowledge, not lost it.  Illusions of himself are stock-in-trade, so if it's deemed necessary for Loki to interact with folk in the timelines, why not just have him project an image of himself to interact on that timeline?

 

 

 

[ThaOGDreamWeaver]

Spoilery mini-thoughts:

Spoiler

He could well do that. Also, that image could be digitally recreated in production. Then again...

 

More spoilery stuff at the link below. Pretty good Q&A from Esquire - including where Eric thinks everything landed, a surprising fact about how they designed that period midwestern McDonalds (which was an old roadside Indian restaurant in the middle of nowhere 100 miles around London - so yes, probably an ex-Little Chef as well), and a series of evasive but nonetheless interesting answers about Jonathan Majors and the future of the MCU. Mainly because the Majors cases are still active, and also he'd like to eat lunch in that town again and/or not get assassinated by K.E.V.I.N's spoiler-hunting killdroids.

https://www.esquire.com/entertainment/tv/a45433773/loki-showrunner-season-2-finale-interview/

Edited November 14, 2023 by ThaOGDreamWeaver

[ThaOGDreamWeaver]

Small update. Not entirely sure which topic this goes in, but...

 

Jonathan Majors Dropped By Marvel After Conviction

https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/general-news/jonathan-majors-trial-verdict-1235759607/

 

I'm not gonna comment on the criminal trial for obvious reasons: read the whole article to the end, make your own mind up.

However, in Whollyodd terms:

• Majors is now off the Marvel roster...
• ...and has had another indie picture shelved by Fox Searchlight.
• Mike Waldron (Loki, Doc Strange:MOM, Rick and Morty) has been brought in to do a rework of the upcoming film, now snappily titled "Avengers 5".

Oddly, I think this is could be a blessing in disguise for Marvel. Loki's World Tree finale is a fine plot way of bringing harmony to the Multiverse - without the whole dang Kang shebang. Which, frankly, wasn't working out to begin with.

• Quantumania was a poorly-plotted porridge of an intro/explainer film.
• Majors didn't really grab folks as a villain (and that's by Marvel standards, who have always had an antagonist problem).
• The overarching Kang Dynasty Avengers-Assemble-But-This-Time-Across-Time-And-Space was done better last time.

Is it time to break Doc Doom out of the toybox?

Do Marvel hit pause on the movies for a bit and build out some other stories?

Would you like to see them branch out The Batman style into wildly different, perhaps smaller movies? Like a Kingpin solo movie, or what happened to Cap after he broke the laws of time for Peggy (a 1950s Cold War period spy couple piece, perhaps?)

Edited December 18, 2023 by ThaOGDreamWeaver

[Techwright]

I've been reading the various reports on the trial outcome and there's this quick rush to say "Bring on Dr. Doom!"  Well, hold on a sec.  This is a multiverse.  We've already seen 3 faces of Spider-Man.  It should be easy to recast Kang in all his variations.  We just tap into the ones that don't look like Jonathan Majors.  In fact, why not have multiple actors portraying various variations?  Give a few to each actor.  It would be a bit like the actors who replaced Heath Ledger for those bits he didn't film in The Imaginarium of Dr. Parnassus.  It could even leave us guessing (at first): where is Kang coming from this time, and what face and personality does he wear?

 

There's also the matter of that tag scene in Quantumania, where a host of Kang variants all gather.  They can't just leave that alone.  Recast, just like they did Rhodey.  Or drop a nuke on the convention by one who wants to remain.  One with a different face.

 

If you're asking for more Marvel One-Shots, then yes, I'm all for that.  I'm also down for bringing Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. properly into the MCU, not just a close but alternate 'verse, and very much down for a Captain Carter film.  Maybe the "pause button" is to do live action "What If...?" in 1 hour format?  Bring on Squirrel Girl!

[Without_Pause]

I won't say the multi-verse is dead, but it is going to get trimmed back. Deadpool/X-Men will likely be the only remaining thread there. Squirrel Girl was tried in a New Warriors show and was dropped from a different studio before even being aired. Even Disney was given a shot to pick it up, and they passed on it. 

 

It's frustrating though in that Majors is a talented actor. It sucks, but Marvel has many more landings to figure out that are bigger worries. 

 

Doom/Fantastic Four likely gets its pace picked up. 

Edited December 19, 2023 by Without_Pause

[ThaOGDreamWeaver]

4 hours ago, Without_Pause said:

It's frustrating though in that Majors is a talented actor.

That he is (though most convincing as Timely: still didn't have Big Villain Energy for me.)

And many actors have got away with worse over the decades. But even with a successful appeal, t he material released during the trial is going to mean a long road of publicity rehab.

 

While I normally concur with m'learned coll' TW, the whole multiverse thing was clunkily executed on screen in Quantumania - and not really used except as a shiny creative toy in DS:MoM. It works better in the comics, and across multiple episodes of Loki and What If, where you've got that room to play with new ideas: and you're not unpacking a difficult concept into a 120-minute rollercoaster ride. 

 

So while, yes, even DOOM himself might wind up being a variant, just because they Kang, doesn't mean that they should.

Edited December 19, 2023 by ThaOGDreamWeaver

[ThaOGDreamWeaver]

5 hours ago, Without_Pause said:

I won't say the mulit-verse is dead,

Side note: I would watch a Mullet Cinematic Universe. Though this list is clearly missing Momoa and early Hemsworth.

https://www.digitalspy.com/movies/a543060/13-hair-raising-movie-mullets-hugh-jackman-kurt-russell-david-bowie/

[InvaderStych]

2 hours ago, ThaOGDreamWeaver said:

Side note: I would watch a Mullet Cinematic Universe. Though this list is clearly missing Momoa and early Hemsworth.

 

That's a pretty loose definition of Mullet in that list. 🤣

 

I consider myself an expert having survived my teenage years in the late 80s in the southern half of the American Midwest. 😉

 

Coincidentally, I just finished my run-through of Loki (I know, I'm way behind on the DisneyVerse), and the similarities in art direction between the TVA and Clockworks/Summerland in Legion were pretty striking to me. Meaningless in the whole 'verse thing as outside of a brief scene in Deadpool 2, Legion is a complete stand-alone (and shines for it), but it was nice to see at any rate.

[ThaOGDreamWeaver]

…”haven’t I seen you before somewhere?”

[biostem]

6 hours ago, ThaOGDreamWeaver said:

Nah man... have it where that's Rhoadie from an alternate universe where Tony is still alive...

 

If Kang sees himself as a god, why not go all the way and bring in Morgan Freeman?

[BrandX]

On 10/26/2023 at 5:24 PM, Techwright said:

Frankly, whether multiverse or not, the MCU has suffered greatly from unsteady writing.  The occasional lackluster movie or show is bound to happen, but I've seen multiple shows now that start off strong and lose their way in the middle.  They may recover for a time, but the ending is mushy.  They're having the same problem over at Lucasfilms, so maybe the problem starts higher than the individual franchises.

 

They very much need to propel this chapter of the MCU forward to its conclusion.  Admittedly they've had a troublesome time due to COVID years and now the writers' strike and Jonathan Majors' legal charges (and he's been rescheduled to Nov. 29).  But the public has now long been aware of the re-acquisition of rights for the X-men and for the Fantastic Four, and dragging out B-listers (sorry, that was unkind) lesser-known Marvel characters, combined with the writing issues, is simply turning rabid fans into "meh" folk.  If the rumors of using the multi-verse storyline to launch a crisis that will reboot everything into a new timeline are true, then this is where we need to go...soon.  

 

Oh, and I disagree with those stating that the original Avengers actors need to return for a full compliment of new movies.  Some even claiming this to be leaked info.  First, it would cheapen the end of at least 3 of the characters, and second, the actors are human, and aging. While Tony Stark might wear a power suit well into his 80s, Chris Evans and ScarJo can't project super strength, swift attacks, and resilience for another decade.  Maybe a couple of multiverse cameos as alternates of their characters, but it will need to be new actors taking new interpretations of the roles.

 

The problem with X-Men as I know it, is they can't use the X-Men without using the last actors in the roles until...this year sometime (2024) maybe.  Something with contracts.  Which, honestly, with them currently, I'm worried about what they would do with the X-Men.

 

I want an an all new cast, but I want them to be like the characters in the comics.  Never felt we got a good Rogue.  I personally was never fond of Patrick Stewart as Professor X, but I'm sure I'm the only one in that area.

But regardless, I want new YOUNG cast, so they can last awhile without making the characters become to old to quickly.

[InvaderStych]

3 minutes ago, BrandX said:

Never felt we got a good Rogue.

 

We didn't get anything remotely close to a good Rogue. Hard for me to describe what we got without sounding bitter and hyperbolic, but I was greatly disappointed at what they did with her in the movies.

[BrandX]

Just now, InvaderStych said:

 

We didn't get anything remotely close to a good Rogue. Hard for me to describe what we got without sounding bitter and hyperbolic, but I was greatly disappointed at what they did with her in the movies.

 

I was hoping for classic Rogue or something like Evolution's Rogue, which felt like a great update for her.

[InvaderStych]

7 minutes ago, BrandX said:

 

I was hoping for classic Rogue or something like Evolution's Rogue, which felt like a great update for her.

 

Classic would have been my choice - or at least something closer to 90s cartoon Rogue. Without the blazing red hair and boundless confidence she just feels wrong, but I'm probably showing my age. 😄

 

Came back to comment further:

 

I'd like to seem them branch out a bit with X-men characters though and let the more well known ones sit for a bit. The Cuckoos were the only thing that really made The Gifted worth watching, for example, and it would be interesting to see Quintin Quire in movie form as well.

 

On topic:

 

Loved the ending of s2 of Loki. I'm all for more narratives that know where they are going and get there definitively.

Edited January 5 by InvaderStych