Defender buffs and why can’t we use them

[Panache]

11 minutes ago, Without_Pause said:

Kins essentially already are buffed. You are really only looking at ID as something they don't currently benefit from.

 

People are also missing the fact that TA would completely miss out on self-buffing the caster.

Traps, Rad, Dark…none of the Debuff sets would really benefit from this 

[macskull]

On 8/3/2023 at 11:00 AM, Hedgefund2 said:

I don't know if talking about other servers abstractly is frowned upon, but one of them allows buff sets to apply ally buffs to the caster.  I don't even remember which server it is so I couldn't name names if I wanted to.

That's Thunderspy, and they're reeeeeeeeeeally weird about balance but then call Homecoming unbalanced because of things like Kinetics on MMs (which is unironically one of the worst MM secondaries because of how hard it is to effectively leverage its powers on an MM). They've got some cool ideas but a lot of their changes are so off-the-walls bananas that I can't really see it as anything more than an occasional playground.

Edited August 6, 2023 by macskull

[Captain Fabulous]

29 minutes ago, Without_Pause said:

Kins essentially already are buffed. You are really only looking at ID as something they don't currently benefit from.

 

People are also missing the fact that TA would completely miss out on self-buffing the caster.

Siphon Speed requires a critter and a tohit check and doesn't give the +recovery or slow resistance that Speed Boost does. Giving the player a moderate +recovery boost, some smashing/energy resistance, and some mez resistance/protection is not a huge deal and won't suddenly make them godly, especially since they can't be self-stacked, and that other sets like Electric and FF get similar abilities.

And of course TA wouldn't benefit as it has no team buffing abilities. I'm not sure why you would even bring this up.

[macskull]

10 minutes ago, Captain Fabulous said:

And of course TA wouldn't benefit as it has no team buffing abilities. I'm not sure why you would even bring this up.

I think the core of that argument is that allowing ally-only buffs to affect the caster would result in disproportionate performance increases for a handful of sets (which, to be quite honest, don't need them) while offering no benefit to others.

 

What I'm curious about is why AoE mez protection buffs seem to be frowned upon by the powers that be, or at least why their application is inconsistent. Increase Density is the only formerly-single-target-but-now-AoE mez protection buff but only the smashing and energy resistance portion of it is AoE. Meanwhile Empathy, Sonic, Therm, Poison, and Pain (and I'm sure I'm forgetting some) have ally single-target mez protection with side effects which should be AoE but aren't.

[Without_Pause]

42 minutes ago, Captain Fabulous said:

Siphon Speed requires a critter and a tohit check and doesn't give the +recovery or slow resistance that Speed Boost does. Giving the player a moderate +recovery boost, some smashing/energy resistance, and some mez resistance/protection is not a huge deal and won't suddenly make them godly, especially since they can't be self-stacked, and that other sets like Electric and FF get similar abilities.

And of course TA wouldn't benefit as it has no team buffing abilities. I'm not sure why you would even bring this up.

A Kin is going to get numerous attempts at pulling off Siphon Speed. It would be incredibly abnormal for that to not hit consistently. Kins don't lack endurance due to Transference. Yes, it needs to hit, but as someone who has taken Kin to 50 more than once and one of them was my main, End really isn't an issue. 

 

Based on March 2020 data, Emps were more than double Kins as the most played Defender in terms of ones at 50. TA and Traps combined weren't even 10% of Emps. Now imagine Emps being able to self buff. FYI, TA was 1.6% of Defenders at 50. That's outright unicorn status even before a huge change to the AT in which they benefit nothing from it.

Edited August 6, 2023 by Without_Pause

[Captain Fabulous]

1 hour ago, Without_Pause said:

Now imagine Emps being able to self buff. FYI, TA was 1.6% of Defenders at 50. That's outright unicorn status even before a huge change to the AT in which they benefit nothing from it.

My suggestion was only to remove the "doesn't apply to caster" flag on AoE buffs. There is nothing in Empathy that fits this description. All the AoE buffs in Empathy already work on the caster. The list of powers that are flagged this way is very short -- FF bubbles, Cold/Thermal/Sonic shields, Speed Boost, and Increase Density. And none of them stack from the same caster (usually), so that's not an issue either. Considering the vast majority of buffs in Defender sets do affect the caster it feels like this very short list is a legacy holdover from a time when the live devs enjoyed making sure squishies died, a lot. I think it warrants a look at least.

Allowing us to target ourselves directly would require a revision to the game engine. I'm not even sure it's possible and don't even want to think about what could break if they attempted to do so. It's a horrible idea. But unchecking a flag in the database for 10 powers? Easy peasy. Any balance adjustments that may be needed would be addressed in testing.

Whether or not a Kin has end problems really depends upon their other set. Some are far more endurance heavy than others. And yeah, Transference might eliminate most of the value of the +recovery in Speed Boost (I for one prefer to have too much endurance instead of not enough considering the amount of -recovery and end drain in game), but if everyone else on your team is getting it why can't you? That is to say, if it's not overpowering to give it to your whole team with one cast surely it can't be overpowering to give it to yourself at the same time.

Edited August 6, 2023 by Captain Fabulous

[Without_Pause]

If a Kin can SB themselves than the need for Transference becomes incredibly low. If you can't see the issue with Thermal and Sonic getting shields themselves, then we are agreeing to disagree. FF and Cold is less of an issue since capping Def in the needed places isn't that difficult.

[macskull]

1 hour ago, Without_Pause said:

Based on March 2020 data, Emps were more than double Kins as the most played Defender in terms of ones at 50. TA and Traps combined weren't even 10% of Emps. Now imagine Emps being able to self buff. FYI, TA was 1.6% of Defenders at 50. That's outright unicorn status even before a huge change to the AT in which they benefit nothing from it.

To be fair, Empathy as represented in those numbers is kind of an aberration. In those stats it was far and away the most popular Defender primary, but for Corruptors it was in the bottom five and it was square in the middle on Controllers - but Kinetics was the most popular secondary for those two, by quite a bit. Empathy's also a little weird in that it's the only support set that doesn't have even a single enemy-affecting power.

 

19 minutes ago, Captain Fabulous said:

My suggestion was only to remove the "doesn't apply to caster" flag on AoE buffs. There is nothing in Empathy that fits this description. All the AoE buffs in Empathy already work on the caster. The list of powers that are flagged this way is very short -- FF bubbles, Cold/Thermal/Sonic shields, Speed Boost, and Increase Density. And none of them stack from the same caster (usually), so that's not an issue either. Considering the vast majority of buffs in Defender sets do affect the caster it feels like this very short list is a legacy holdover from a time when the live devs enjoyed making sure squishies died, a lot. I think it warrants a look at least.

The reason those buffs were made AoE wasn't to make teams more powerful, but rather (and this is a direct quote from the release notes for the patch where the change was implemented) "[t]o make buffing easier for Teams and Leagues." That's it. It was a QoL change so people with short-cooldown ally shields didn't have to spend thirty seconds every few minutes chasing down and buffing each teammate individually.

Edited August 6, 2023 by macskull

[Without_Pause]

1 minute ago, macskull said:

To be fair, Empathy as represented in those numbers is kind of an aberration. In those stats it was far and away the most popular Defender primary, but for Corruptors it was in the bottom five and it was square in the middle on Controllers - but Kinetics was the most popular secondary for those two, by quite a bit. Empathy's also a little weird in that it's the only support set that doesn't have even a single enemy-affecting power.

Empathy for Defenders is due to 'We need a healer" trope and Kin on the others simply due to Fire's damage in both cases. But still, TA would instantly drop to under 1% played if Defenders could self buff themselves. Traps which gets played even less would also not benefit from this. Yes, Traps is at least middle ground for MMs. It's the only AT which gets even remotely decent play out of it. 

[macskull]

17 minutes ago, Without_Pause said:

Empathy for Defenders is due to 'We need a healer" trope and Kin on the others simply due to Fire's damage in both cases. But still, TA would instantly drop to under 1% played if Defenders could self buff themselves. Traps which gets played even less would also not benefit from this. Yes, Traps is at least middle ground for MMs. It's the only AT which gets even remotely decent play out of it. 

Those numbers were also from before TA got a rework. I'd wager the number is quite a bit higher now, but of course we haven't seen new numbers in three and a half years. I think at the end of the day... yes, it would be easy to make those AoE buffs also apply to the caster, but it's a solution to a problem that doesn't really exist. Each set with these AoE buffs does just fine solo and doesn't really need the help, Could probably have made the argument for Force Fields but with the recent buffs that set is actually pretty damn good now.

[Captain Fabulous]

4 hours ago, macskull said:

TThe reason those buffs were made AoE wasn't to make teams more powerful, but rather (and this is a direct quote from the release notes for the patch where the change was implemented) "[t]o make buffing easier for Teams and Leagues." That's it. It was a QoL change so people with short-cooldown ally shields didn't have to spend thirty seconds every few minutes chasing down and buffing each teammate individually.

Yes, I'm aware of why they were changed to AoE. But the point stands that at the time they could have been made to also affect the caster and purposefully weren't.

[macskull]

27 minutes ago, Captain Fabulous said:

Yes, I'm aware of why they were changed to AoE. But the point stands that at the time they could have been made to also affect the caster and purposefully weren't.

I think we've pretty exhaustively covered the "why" behind that, though.

[Mythical Creature]

I think Defenders should be able to use their shields on themselves and a large part of why I don't play many of these buff sets is because I want to be tough myself. My Time Manipulation Defender caps their defenses without even trying.

Edited August 7, 2023 by Mythical Creature

[Without_Pause]

2 hours ago, Mythical Creature said:

I think Defenders should be able to use their shields on themselves and a large part of why I don't play many of these buff sets is because I want to be tough myself. My Time Manipulation Defender caps their defenses without even trying.

My Fire/time controller says 'Hi.' Yes, that's post Incarnates. No, that's not a confirmed finished build. And yes, those numbers were higher until I decided to get Chrono Shift to be perma. Point is, if you want to bring in self buffing into the conversation, don't bring Time in as an example.

Edited August 7, 2023 by Without_Pause

[macskull]

5 hours ago, Mythical Creature said:

I think Defenders should be able to use their shields on themselves and a large part of why I don't play many of these buff sets is because I want to be tough myself. My Time Manipulation Defender caps their defenses without even trying.

This is my Fire/Cold Corruptor (Defender numbers would be even higher). If I could self-buff with the shields while still being able to use Sleet, Heat Loss, and Benumb as often as I do, it would be absolutely bonkers.

 

 

Edited August 7, 2023 by macskull

[00Troy00]

On 8/2/2023 at 9:41 AM, SeraphimKensai said:

I'm not opposed to the idea but any self buffs would have to be balanced.

 

Here's a question I asked myself that I found interesting: How would Absorb Pain work if you were able to target yourself?

How would absorb pain work if I could target myself?!?

 

Just the way it ******* should! (I.E. the sway it does for everyone else)/

[macskull]

11 hours ago, 00Troy00 said:

How would absorb pain work if I could target myself?!?

 

Just the way it ******* should! (I.E. the sway it does for everyone else)/

I mean, you would just damage yourself and not heal anything because that’s how Absorb Pain works. 

[Without_Pause]

On 8/7/2023 at 7:15 PM, macskull said:

This is my Fire/Cold Corruptor (Defender numbers would be even higher). If I could self-buff with the shields while still being able to use Sleet, Heat Loss, and Benumb as often as I do, it would be absolutely bonkers.

 

 

I started to work on my Cold/water Def. I have four powers to slot out. So far Def numbers are higher with Res numbers being lower, but this is just me tossing in things versus a finished product, Def is more important than Res, and more so for a Defender. The shields would only boost the Def numbers all of the more. A Cold Defender would cakewalk to being Def capped on a number of types and positions and would be in the 60% range for S/L/E if they had access to the shields. None of that factors in Power Boost or Incarnates. Grab a Thermal friend and steamroll the game. Granted, you should be doing that anyway.

[Doomguide2005]

     My Empaths start giggling.  A single pair of Empaths would be sitting at the softcap on SO's (at level 13).  Start involving IO's and or more than just self buffing beyond Fortitude and it starts to get silly fast especially for small teams of defenders 

     Small teams would see the greatest change in the relative strength of buffing sets.

     Then again 7 Defenders vs 8 is virtually no effective change ... they're silly powerful either way.

[GastlyGibus]

On 8/6/2023 at 10:20 PM, Captain Fabulous said:

Yes, I'm aware of why they were changed to AoE. But the point stands that at the time they could have been made to also affect the caster and purposefully weren't.

 

Because it would be insanely easy to exploit.

>Go to P2W vendor
>Get one of the buff pets
>Target buff pet with AoE shield
>You can now buff yourself

 

To the main topic, yes, it would absolutely break what little semblance of balance was left in this game. Defenders and other support AT's are already atrociously powerful, far beyond anything the original developers ever intended for them. Hell, practically every archetype can be made atrociously powerful with IOs and incarnate powers. The absolute last thing this game needs is for players to make themselves even more ridiculously powerful. You might as well just ask for an "I win" button that instantly kills all enemies on the map at that point.

Edited September 4, 2023 by GastlyGibus

[Without_Pause]

This reminded me I had worked on my Cold Defender so I went and played around with it a bit more. In reality, my current lowest Def stat for any Def stat which the shields cover is 30.6% Melee, and I use Hover. Anything else is less than 7% from being soft capped or already soft capped. I'm still not done with the build either. I feel like the people who think support characters need to self buff are ones who don't really plan builds. 

[Captain Fabulous]

9 hours ago, GastlyGibus said:

 

Because it would be insanely easy to exploit.

>Go to P2W vendor
>Get one of the buff pets
>Target buff pet with AoE shield
>You can now buff yourself

 

To the main topic, yes, it would absolutely break what little semblance of balance was left in this game. Defenders and other support AT's are already atrociously powerful, far beyond anything the original developers ever intended for them. Hell, practically every archetype can be made atrociously powerful with IOs and incarnate powers. The absolute last thing this game needs is for players to make themselves even more ridiculously powerful. You might as well just ask for an "I win" button that instantly kills all enemies on the map at that point.

Being able to buff yourself isn't an exploit if the power permits it, especially since none of the buffs in question can be stacked by the same caster. There are plenty of support sets that get pets to buff off of. The easy solution is to just make the buffs PbAoE instead of targeted (like all the other team buffs that also affect the caster) so solo characters without pets don't need to worry about it.

The game is balanced around SOs, not IO sets + Incarnates. I think you'll find that Defenders and other support ATs are far from atrociously powerful with an SO (or even common IO) build.

[arcane]

You’re free to think Colds and Kins should be buffed, just like I’m free to think you’re an idiot 🙂

[Without_Pause]

36 minutes ago, Captain Fabulous said:

The game is balanced around SOs, not IO sets + Incarnates. I think you'll find that Defenders and other support ATs are far from atrociously powerful with an SO (or even common IO) build.

There are SGs from Live who would chuckle at this statement. I think we can throw out what this game is balanced against nonsense. When was the last time you saw someone post a desired build for end game content that only used SOs? SOs haven't been the standard in years.

 

 

[Captain Fabulous]

24 minutes ago, Without_Pause said:

There are SGs from Live who would chuckle at this statement. I think we can throw out what this game is balanced against nonsense. When was the last time you saw someone post a desired build for end game content that only used SOs? SOs haven't been the standard in years.

 

 

Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it's not true. The game has ALWAYS been balanced around SOs, even today, because that's what's easily and readily available to everyone at all levels with minimal financial investment. The majority of players don't have a meta endgame build or play hardmore endgame content. Believe it or not they use SOs and/or common IOs, even at level 50. IOs and Incarnates have ALWAYS been advertised as optional features, not required.