Addressing the lower-level IO problem

[FupDup]

1 minute ago, macskull said:

So patrol XP, at least, functions the same way it did back on live. I'm also not aware of any "XP boost" that's been added post-shutdown either, unless you include the XP boosters but those are optional.

All I know is that when I played back on live in the days when VEATs were still brand new, leveling was so, so, incredibly sloooooooooooooooooooooooow. It took freaking forever just to gain even one notch on the XP circle. Homecoming with no XP boosters, patrol XP, etc. is leaps and bounds much faster than my distant live server memories. Maybe this boost came on the live server sometime after I stopped playing, or maybe it was introduced by HC, IDK which. 

[Rudra]

6 minutes ago, macskull said:

So patrol XP, at least, functions the same way it did back on live. I'm also not aware of any "XP boost" that's been added post-shutdown either, unless you include the XP boosters but those are optional.

To the best of my knowledge, and contrasting how quickly my characters level on Homecoming versus how quickly they leveled back on Live, before Homecoming was Homecoming and it was still a very private server that only some people knew about and could access, the amount of xp characters got was boosted, reducing the amount of time it takes to level up. I don't use XP Boosters. I don't typically farm/power level my characters. I still get my characters to level 50 in less than a month, playing for less than an hour a day, for maybe a few days a week. As opposed to back on Live when I played for 4-6 hours a day, every day, and still took longer than a month to get to 50. 

 

(Edit: In fact, back on Live, my friends would have me power level my current favorite character so I could be more than token help on missions because it often took me a couple months to get to 50. So yeah, there has been a massive change in xp rates.)

Edited September 8, 2023 by Rudra

[Marbing]

On 9/6/2023 at 8:22 AM, macskull said:

The proposed changes don't add any lower-level grind. They present an alternate option to SOs at lower levels and make lower-level IOs more appealing. The only real way I could see there being "grind" here is having the inf to afford the lower level sets, but again... optional.

I would be concerned about the impact it would have on the overall usefulness of SO's. Why slot any at all? It is more cost effective in the long run to just buy the IO's and push to 50 than to constantly recycle SO's. I get that not everyone could afford this out of the gates but we aren't talking about a huge investment and once you get one level 50 you can very easily fund another toon with the 2-3 million INF needed to get all the IO's they would need all the way to 50. SO's currently serve as the best option for pre-lvl 22 (which is when you can get lvl 25 IO's), and the game is easy enough that you could argue you don't need any enhancements at all until then. But, it isn't a bad idea to have enhancements pre-22 if you are trying to take your time through the process (which is a valid point, and is where SO's come in handy) as it will definitely make life easier for you and make you far more useful on teams. If IO's are stronger pre-25 than they are now I think that niche usefulness of SO's would be nearly eliminated. So at that point why even have them at all? NOTE: I know that they would technically still be more effective (slightly) but not effective enough to make up for the constant recycling. If this suggestion were to go in maybe SO's should be dropped in price to compensate and keep them as a good cheap option pre-22, or even beyond? Just thinking....

I want to be clear, I am not disagreeing with you, I just want clarification on how you feel it will affect SO's in the long run. I could very easily be missing something or have misunderstood your post. I have a tendency to do that.

Everything else is a great idea, IMO. Your math makes sense, boosters do need to be tuned down a tad, and the set bonuses for lower level sets do need to be adjusted. 

[A.I.D.A.]

4 hours ago, Marbing said:

I would be concerned about the impact it would have on the overall usefulness of SO's. Why slot any at all? It is more cost effective in the long run to just buy the IO's and push to 50 than to constantly recycle SO's. I get that not everyone could afford this out of the gates but we aren't talking about a huge investment and once you get one level 50 you can very easily fund another toon with the 2-3 million INF needed to get all the IO's they would need all the way to 50. SO's currently serve as the best option for pre-lvl 22 (which is when you can get lvl 25 IO's), and the game is easy enough that you could argue you don't need any enhancements at all until then. But, it isn't a bad idea to have enhancements pre-22 if you are trying to take your time through the process (which is a valid point, and is where SO's come in handy) as it will definitely make life easier for you and make you far more useful on teams. If IO's are stronger pre-25 than they are now I think that niche usefulness of SO's would be nearly eliminated. So at that point why even have them at all? NOTE: I know that they would technically still be more effective (slightly) but not effective enough to make up for the constant recycling. If this suggestion were to go in maybe SO's should be dropped in price to compensate and keep them as a good cheap option pre-22, or even beyond? Just thinking....

I want to be clear, I am not disagreeing with you, I just want clarification on how you feel it will affect SO's in the long run. I could very easily be missing something or have misunderstood your post. I have a tendency to do that.

Everything else is a great idea, IMO. Your math makes sense, boosters do need to be tuned down a tad, and the set bonuses for lower level sets do need to be adjusted. 

 

There already is no use for SOs. As someone here said earlier, levelling to 22 with nothing more than the basic five prestige enhancements is fairly easy, and at 22, you slot Lv. 25 crafted IOs and never look back.

[FupDup]

SOs work fine as cheap filler pieces up until the tipping point where crafted IOs start to take over. Not every power can take the prestige enhancements (i.e. armor or support stuff), and if you've got a bunch of attacks those 5 won't be able to cover everything by themselves. 

[Hyperstrike]

49 minutes ago, A.I.D.A. said:

 

There already is no use for SOs. As someone here said earlier, levelling to 22 with nothing more than the basic five prestige enhancements is fairly easy, and at 22, you slot Lv. 25 crafted IOs and never look back.

This is an opinion not backed by fact.

CAN one do it?

Sure.

SHOULD one do it?

Probably not.

Can the process be simplified through the use of SOs?

Yes.

[Sovera]

15 hours ago, Hyperstrike said:

This is an opinion not backed by fact.

CAN one do it?

Sure.

SHOULD one do it?

Probably not.

Can the process be simplified through the use of SOs?

Yes.

 

I'm fairly certain we could level side by side me and my empty slots and you with SOs, and we would not notice a lot of difference outside of spreadsheets, if any, by the time we hit 22. The stat clamping is a thing, and SOs stats are static which do not even level with us unlike set IOs, Plus SOs remain expensive for what they do, and they go bad every three levels. All of this for a couple of hours which is how long it takes to solo to 22 or half that if in a team.

 

SOs are a relic who are not relevant. Might as well craft level 10 generic IOs because those at least won't go bad in three six levels.

 

 

But it does not bug me that SOs exist or that people use SOs,

Edited September 10, 2023 by Sovera

[Rudra]

1 minute ago, Sovera said:

SOs stats are static which do not even level with us unlike set IOs,

Set IOs are also static unless attuned. They just don't lose effectiveness from us leveling past their slotted level.

[Marbing]

2 hours ago, A.I.D.A. said:

 

There already is no use for SOs. As someone here said earlier, levelling to 22 with nothing more than the basic five prestige enhancements is fairly easy, and at 22, you slot Lv. 25 crafted IOs and never look back.

I made the same point in the paragraph you quoted, but while it is true that you could it doesn’t mean everyone does. There are certainly players who take advantage of SO’s right now. My concern was more about why would SO’s even need to exist if the proposed suggestion went through. I know they would be slightly stronger but they would likely be less cost effective given the need to cycle them out. I would imagine a lot of players would just forgo them in favor of IOs just because at least they are static and it’s not like you need a huge boost sub 22 anyways.

[Sovera]

1 hour ago, Rudra said:

Set IOs are also static unless attuned. They just don't lose effectiveness from us leveling past their slotted level.

 

Yes.

[FupDup]

2 hours ago, Marbing said:

...My concern was more about why would SO’s even need to exist if the proposed suggestion went through...

Well, a part of the problem is that a lot of these extraneous things and systems might not need to have existed in the first place. IMO there's a lot of bloat in the system. TO's already got taken out (good riddance) and DO's probably should too. 

 

As for SOs vs. crafted IOs, IMO only one of the two really needs to exist to fill in the niche of a cheap filler if you can't slot proper IO sets or something due to either lacking resources or the power not being eligible (i.e. can only put generic recharge in Hasten, generic endurance in Assault, etc.). 

[Rudra]

1 hour ago, FupDup said:

Well, a part of the problem is that a lot of these extraneous things and systems might not need to have existed in the first place. IMO there's a lot of bloat in the system. TO's already got taken out (good riddance) and DO's probably should too. 

 

As for SOs vs. crafted IOs, IMO only one of the two really needs to exist to fill in the niche of a cheap filler if you can't slot proper IO sets or something due to either lacking resources or the power not being eligible (i.e. can only put generic recharge in Hasten, generic endurance in Assault, etc.). 

DOs and SOs drop as a matter of course and can be slotted into powers for free. Or sold for some extra inf'. IOs always have to be crafted or bought. Removing DOs, and possibly SOs, means that a character can't slot enhancements except by buying them. (Which includes crafting them since you have to pay to craft them.) Doesn't get much cheaper than free.

 

Edit: So if it comes down to losing DOs/SOs because improving low level IO sets makes them worthless? Then I am very much opposed to the idea. While I usually just leave my enhancement slots empty until I can get the set IOs I intend for them to use, there are many times I find myself throwing SOs or DOs in them as a stop gap measure because I can't afford anything and hey, I've got several drops I can use that are of more benefit slotted than sold.

 

(Edit again: I also find funny your comment that some things and systems may have not needed to exist in the first place, on a discussion about low level IO sets, where you seem to imply it is the DOs and SOs that should have never existed in the first place, considering that set IOs were a much later addition on a game where TOs, DOs, and SOs were the benchmark for having a capable character. Especially since it was ED that  prompted the IO sets to be created since players were in an uproar that they could no longer slot their powers for their play style or full effectiveness. [Lord knows I was rather upset when my Dark/Dark Scrapper found itself only able to barely use 3 of the 5 red SOs I had in each attack. And it was slotting that way that made the character suddenly very capable instead of struggling to face off against equal level mobs.])

Edited September 10, 2023 by Rudra

[srmalloy]

7 hours ago, Sovera said:

Plus SOs remain expensive for what they do, and they go bad every three levels.

Picking at a nit here, it's every six levels -- you can buy and slot level 30 SOs at 27, and they don't die until 33. They just degrade with each level, but while a level-30 IO slotted at 27 won't have quite as much 'oomph' as a level-30 SO slotted at 27, they'll stay at the same value regardless of the character level.

[Sovera]

5 hours ago, srmalloy said:

Picking at a nit here, it's every six levels -- you can buy and slot level 30 SOs at 27, and they don't die until 33. They just degrade with each level, but while a level-30 IO slotted at 27 won't have quite as much 'oomph' as a level-30 SO slotted at 27, they'll stay at the same value regardless of the character level.

 

You are correct. I'll change my previous posts.

[Hyperstrike]

16 hours ago, Sovera said:

 

I'm fairly certain we could level side by side me and my empty slots and you with SOs, and we would not notice a lot of difference outside of spreadsheets, if any, by the time we hit 22. The stat clamping is a thing, and SOs stats are static which do not even level with us unlike set IOs, Plus SOs remain expensive for what they do, and they go bad every three levels. All of this for a couple of hours which is how long it takes to solo to 22 or half that if in a team.

 

SOs are a relic who are not relevant. Might as well craft level 10 generic IOs because those at least won't go bad in three six levels.

 

 

But it does not bug me that SOs exist or that people use SOs,

So you're trying to make a quantitative argument based on a perception of qualitative difference/sameness?

[A.I.D.A.]

On 9/9/2023 at 2:16 PM, Marbing said:

I made the same point in the paragraph you quoted, but while it is true that you could it doesn’t mean everyone does. There are certainly players who take advantage of SO’s right now. My concern was more about why would SO’s even need to exist if the proposed suggestion went through. I know they would be slightly stronger but they would likely be less cost effective given the need to cycle them out. I would imagine a lot of players would just forgo them in favor of IOs just because at least they are static and it’s not like you need a huge boost sub 22 anyways.

 

I also think the suggestion is bad and unnecessary, but claiming "the usefulness of SO's" as the reason is flawed and incorrect thinking. SO's have not been useful for a very long time, and they never will be again. The game is not, in fact, "balanced around SO's" anymore, and it never will be again. There are still people who make bad decisions and waste a bunch of INF every three levels. It's their INF, they can waste it if they want. But the fact that people who make bad decisions exist does not mean I need to pretend that those decisions aren't bad.

 

The reason this suggestion is bad and unnecessary is because sub-50 IO sets already have value to Lv. 50 characters, and don't need to have their level range extended. I've already showed earlier in this thread, how with three pieces each of a 25-cap set and a 30-cap set, I've pushed damage enhancement into red ED and gotten a respectable enough enhancement value in accuracy/endurance/recharge for the power in question -- which was my T2 attack chosen at Lv. 1. And they aren't even boosted, I leave my IO sets in Mid's at their natural cap, because I run attuned enhancements.

 

Edited September 11, 2023 by A.I.D.A.

[Marbing]

21 minutes ago, A.I.D.A. said:

 

I also think the suggestion is bad and unnecessary, but claiming "the usefulness of SO's" as the reason is flawed and incorrect thinking. SO's have not been useful for a very long time, and they never will be again. The game is not, in fact, "balanced around SO's" anymore, and it never will be again. There are still people who make bad decisions and waste a bunch of INF every three levels. It's their INF, they can waste it if they want. But the fact that people who make bad decisions exist does not mean I need to pretend that those decisions aren't bad.

 

The reason this suggestion is bad and unnecessary is because sub-50 IO sets already have value to Lv. 50 characters, and don't need to have their level range extended. I've already showed earlier in this thread, how with three pieces each of a 25-cap set and a 30-cap set, I've pushed damage enhancement into red ED and gotten a respectable enough enhancement value in accuracy/endurance/recharge for the power in question -- which was my T2 attack chosen at Lv. 1. And they aren't even boosted, I leave my IO sets in Mid's at their natural cap, because I run attuned enhancements.

 

Okay, well…. I never said it was a bad and unnecessary suggestion, I just said it may completely erase SOs. Also, while I agree the game is not really balanced around SOs anymore, to say that they aren’t at all useful now is just objectively false. No, you don’t need them all the way up to 22 (true) and I certainly rarely use them, but I know people that don’t just rush to 50 who do use them (because sub 22 they are the best and only real option you have to make your character stronger). All I am saying is that @macskullsuggestion would likely completely replace them for what little use they currently have, which I never said was a bad thing. Maybe SOs do need to go the way of the dinosaur? It’s a valid stance, but then again they are already here, so why not make them more useful? Options options options…

 

[SwitchFade]

There are plenty of players that use SOs only, or partially and the game balance is centered around SO build capability.

 

Changing that is a fundamental system level shift.

Edited September 11, 2023 by SwitchFade

[Hyperstrike]

4 hours ago, Marbing said:

Okay, well…. I never said it was a bad and unnecessary suggestion, I just said it may completely erase SOs. Also, while I agree the game is not really balanced around SOs anymore, to say that they aren’t at all useful now is just objectively false. No, you don’t need them all the way up to 22 (true) and I certainly rarely use them, but I know people that don’t just rush to 50 who do use them (because sub 22 they are the best and only real option you have to make your character stronger). All I am saying is that @macskullsuggestion would likely completely replace them for what little use they currently have, which I never said was a bad thing. Maybe SOs do need to go the way of the dinosaur? It’s a valid stance, but then again they are already here, so why not make them more useful? Options options options…

 

Sorry, but I'm going to continue to disagree here.

We still have TOs, and DOs.  And the game is still, primarily balanced around SOs.
 

As such, IMNSHO, excising the median from the game would be...well...DUMB.

Can I AFFORD nicer build loadouts?

Sure!

Do I want to twink EVERY LAST BUILD in my roster?

Sure!

Is it SMART for me to do that?

HECK THE FRAK NO!

[Marbing]

12 minutes ago, Hyperstrike said:

Sorry, but I'm going to continue to disagree here.

We still have TOs, and DOs.  And the game is still, primarily balanced around SOs.
 

As such, IMNSHO, excising the median from the game would be...well...DUMB.

Can I AFFORD nicer build loadouts?

Sure!

Do I want to twink EVERY LAST BUILD in my roster?

Sure!

Is it SMART for me to do that?

HECK THE FRAK NO!

Okay.