Beam Rifle: Disintegration (Attack Power) Question/Suggestion?

[tidge]

While leveling up several different Beam Rifle ATs (Defender, Sentinel) I found myself adjusting my play style for the set. I mention this because what I will ask about is not coming from a place of "revise set to match my preferred play style"... I actually enjoy adapting my style to the power sets/choices! I have a Beam Rifle Blaster as well, but I haven't played it very much as the character concept wasn't working for me.

 

The origin of this thread is that (again while leveling) the Beam Rifle set (primary for Sentinel, secondary for Defender) felt 'clunky' with respect to the Distintegration power (and effect) particularly for Sentinels. I have zero issues(*1) with or suggestions for any of the other powers in Beam Rifle. The clunkiness I feel (especially on the Sentinel) comes from this:

 

1. The only powers in the Beam Rifle set that can spread the Disintegrate effect (via a spawned pet) are the single-target attacks except for Disintegrate itself.
2. Blasters, Defenders, and Corrputors get one more single-target attack (a Snipe) than Sentinels get (Refractor Beam, an AoE)

 

For reference: The single target powers have some chance (on hit) to spawn Pets.DisintegrationSpread.Disintegrate_Spread (link is for Sentinel version, AFAIK only damage scales per AT) with a rather high pet accuracy (which I mention only because I believe this means that Disintegration spread is never guaranteed, even if there are targets with a 15 foot radius when the pet spawns)

 

Observation 1: The Sentinel has to take both level 1 Beam Rifle attacks  (Charged Shot and Single Shot) to have as many single-target attacks capable of spreading Disintegration as any of the other ATs who take only one of the first two ST attacks (Charged Shot and Single Shot), Penetrating Ray (the Snipe), and Lancer Shot (the 100% chance to spread Disintegration)... basically this comes down to picking either T1 or T2 instead of the T7 Snipe... in order to capitalize on the "bonus feature" of the Beam Rifle set.

 

Observation 2: Right now, my attempts to spread the Disintegration effect with the Sentinel go: Disintegrate -> Lancer Shot, preferably followed by AoE that might hit multiples.... but Sentinel beam Rifle AoEs are more like AoE... so even trying to spread Disintegration feels like a wash. I'm often toggling between targets anyway (that is, not sticking on an original target of Disintegration) because I need to soften up other targets for when AoE are ready.

 

Questions 1 and 1.5: All AT get Disintegration as a single-target attack; If the Pets.DisintegrationSpread.Disintegrate_Spread was spawned on using Disintegration (on a target that already has the Disintegration effect applied) would this be too OP? Would it even work?

 

I am very poorly versed in the balancing potential damage output for a particular (primary/secondary) set among the different ATs that can use that set... so be gentle... but it feels to me that since Blasters/Corruptors/Defenders get access to a single target Snipe (with Snipe damage) that can spread Disintegration (I think: 55% chance if Fast, 100% if "Normal",  for up to 3 targets) in 15 foot radius... whereas the Sentinel Refractor Beam has the same AoE (15 ft radius, albeit with a max 10 target cap). Trying to crunch numbers on the maximum potential damage between a Defender "Fast" Snipe (for simplicity) and a Sentinel Refractor Beam in the following scenario:

 

• 4 targets, one which has the Disintegration debuff applied (the "target" chosen for the attack), the other 3 do not
• All mobiles are within a 15' radius of each other (and the "target", obviously)
• All targets are hit (by all effects)

 

My calculations show that Sentinels do roughly twice the damage of Defenders for the same attack, but without the Disintegration spread it feels like the Sentinel gets the extra damage but surrenders the ability for future "bonus" damage.  I'll put my math here, to show where I may have gone wrong (I find "Fast Snipe" calculations hard... but Normal Snipes wouldn't be used if a target had just been hit with Disintegration):

 

Spoiler

Defender Hits 1 (debuffed) target with Fast Snipe Penetrating Ray; 3 others critters are within 15' radius

• Normal Damage on "target"= 82.414 (ignore ToHit bonuses, I think this is the floor for fast snipe?)
• extra Delayed Damage on "target" = 2x 0.11  x82.414 from the original Disintegration (I think this is floor for Fast Snipe?)
• "original" ongoing Disintegration damage (on original "target") is ignored

Defender spreads Disintegration to 3 others (55% chance, using it seems 'fairest')

• 3 x 5 x 6.3147 x 0.55

 

Defender Total damage = ~152 damage

 

Sentinel hits 4 targets, chosen "target" of Refractor Beam is debuffed, the other 3 are within 15' radius

• Normal Damage on all targets =  4 x 55.0541
• Delayed Damage on all targets = 4 x 2 x 6.0559
• extra Delayed Damage on (originally debuffed) "target" = 2 x 5.1287 from the original Disintegration
• "original" ongoing Disintegration damage (on original "target") is ignored

 

Sentinel Total Damage = ~ 279 damage

 

 

Obviously I am ignoring the maximum target cap of 10 on Refactor Beam, which could hypothetically boost the Sentinel's damage output by ~403 damage, but as a practical matter when I turn up the spawn size on the Sentinel I have a hard time getting more than 5 potential targets within 15' radius of each other for Refractor Beam(*2), due to the inherent initial stances of critters in a spawn, and the AI for different types of critters in a spawn.

 

Question(s) 2+: Is the math roughly correct? Is the larger target cap of Refractor Beam the main thing I am improperly ignoring? Can someone explain what I've missed?

 

Question 3: Would it be outrageous to add some chance to spread Distentegration to Refractor Beam?

 

As for what makes sense for a chance to spread from this AoE... I don't think 100% is the right answer (because "AoE"); and I think a ceiling of 55% (equivalent to the Fast Snipe chance) makes sense, but reducing it (again because "AoE") might be warranted. I think 20% would be the absolute floor (the same as Sentinel's Single Shot), otherwise on 3-critter spawns it would be very unlikely to see the effect. As a practical matter, it's already rare for my Sentinel to have:

• multiple targets suffering from Disintegration concurrently (5.5 second duration)
• switching between targets (or hitting multiple with AoE) to get "boosted" damage

 

 

(*1) I will add that the small number of targets and reduced AoE of the Sentinel attacks takes some getting used to, because of the inherent spatial distribution of mobs in a spawn, as mentioned elsewhere.

 

(*2) I'm trying to "get gud" at balancing single-target attacks, Disintegration (as an actual attack, and as an effect) and the AoE... but I typically experience that starting at range usually just breaks up/scatters a spawn. On the Sentinel: I can wade into a large spawn, but when I do so I feel like I'm losing the ability to pick targets wisely (which is something I associate with ranged attacks).

 

There was a similar thread suggesting adding the Disintegrate pet to Cutting Beam... but I think that "raises all boats" rather than addressing the Sentinel's lack of a fourth single-target mechanism to spread Disintegration.

 

[A.I.D.A.]

Is your chain not fluid enough with the single-target attacks Sentinel Beam Rifle has? That means you need more recharge, not that it needs a change.

[Saiyajinzoningen]

dude I didn't even know beam rifle had a refractor beam until I read this post.

I'm sorry I'm unable to answer your question.

I have too little experience with this set.

You have piqued my interest.

thank you.

[tidge]

17 minutes ago, A.I.D.A. said:

Is your chain not fluid enough with the single-target attacks Sentinel Beam Rifle has? That means you need more recharge, not that it needs a change.

 

It is getting there (via slotting and globals), but keep in mind one the single-shot attacks is Disintegrate (which doesn't "spread" Disintegration). Discounting that power, the other 7 Sentinel attacks are split 4-3 in favor of AoE (with no possible 'spread')  while the other Beam Rifle ATs are split 4-3 in favor of single-target attacks. For all AT, two of them are the T1/T2 attacks... and I think we can all recognize that taking both T1/T2 attacks is generally a sub-optimal choice. The only 100% chance for spread is on Slow Snipes (which really shouldn't occur anyway, for reasons explained above) or Lancer Shot. Even fast Snipes have a better than 50% chance, and those aren't available for Sentinels.

 

I'll add: I don't know that sets are supposed to be balanced around anything but IOs (for better or worse), so considerations of Global recharge bonuses should be set aside.

 

I have been adjusting my Sentinel playstyle to open with Disintegrate -> Refractor Beam, just to get as many critter's attention as possible and then start thinking about (maybe) spreading Disintegration, should they cluster. With large enough spawn sizes, there is almost always a couple of targets still worth doing this.

[Rudra]

9 minutes ago, tidge said:

For all AT, two of them are the T1/T2 attacks... and I think we can all recognize that taking both T1/T2 attacks is generally a sub-optimal choice.

This has nothing to do with the OP and I apologize for that.... however... am I the only person that always takes both their T1 and T2 attacks and makes it part of their attack chain?!

[FupDup]

One possibility for an AOE enhancement could be turning Refractor Beam into a true chain attack, because right now the description is a lie. It's actually just a standard 15 ft circular AOE attack like Ball Lightning, M30, etc. This would further distinguish the set from not only its other AT counterpart but also other blast sets (right now the only chain blast attack is in Storm Blast). 

[kelika2]

I cant read this thread.

Just rename AND rework the Disintegrate Power to something called Lobbed Shot (because Charged Shot is taken) which fires a Radiation Blast's Neutron Bomb ball at the enemy to act as a 10/16 target aoe power

And rework the Disintegrate procs to:

flat chance to proc from all other beam powers

be quicker ticks to spread on ticks

 

[Greycat]

1 hour ago, Rudra said:

This has nothing to do with the OP and I apologize for that.... however... am I the only person that always takes both their T1 and T2 attacks and makes it part of their attack chain?!

 

Nope. I typically do as well. A fast, generally low-end attack to finish something is fairly useful.

 

About the only time I don't is on some control sets.

[Rudra]

23 minutes ago, kelika2 said:

flat chance to proc from all other beam powers

I could get behind this, yeah.

[tidge]

2 hours ago, Rudra said:

This has nothing to do with the OP and I apologize for that.... however... am I the only person that always takes both their T1 and T2 attacks and makes it part of their attack chain?!

 

 I did exactly this on my FF/Beam Defender; the attacks were part of the theme of the character! On the Sentinel... not so much.

[A.I.D.A.]

12 hours ago, tidge said:

 

It is getting there (via slotting and globals), but keep in mind one the single-shot attacks is Disintegrate (which doesn't "spread" Disintegration). Discounting that power, the other 7 Sentinel attacks are split 4-3 in favor of AoE (with no possible 'spread')  while the other Beam Rifle ATs are split 4-3 in favor of single-target attacks. For all AT, two of them are the T1/T2 attacks... and I think we can all recognize that taking both T1/T2 attacks is generally a sub-optimal choice. The only 100% chance for spread is on Slow Snipes (which really shouldn't occur anyway, for reasons explained above) or Lancer Shot. Even fast Snipes have a better than 50% chance, and those aren't available for Sentinels.

 

I'll add: I don't know that sets are supposed to be balanced around anything but IOs (for better or worse), so considerations of Global recharge bonuses should be set aside.

 

I have been adjusting my Sentinel playstyle to open with Disintegrate -> Refractor Beam, just to get as many critter's attention as possible and then start thinking about (maybe) spreading Disintegration, should they cluster. With large enough spawn sizes, there is almost always a couple of targets still worth doing this.

 

You can absolutely make an endless chain with three single-target attacks, especially if two of them are T1 and T2. But you shouldn't need to. You only need the disintegration spread to proc once. Even if it's a pseudopet for the chaining mechanic, it should inherit the accuracy slotted into Disintegrate (the power). Is there any reason why Disintegrate -> Lancer Shot -> T9 isn't working for you as an opener? In my experience, enemies don't scatter the moment they're tagged with a ranged attack, the group of enemies all aggros and bum-rushes me. Certainly they don't scatter enough to outrange the disintegrate spread, and you don't need the status to be on every enemy before it's time to hit the nuke button.

 

Edited September 23, 2023 by A.I.D.A.

[tidge]

4 hours ago, A.I.D.A. said:

 

You can absolutely make an endless chain with three single-target attacks, especially if two of them are T1 and T2. But you shouldn't need to. You only need the disintegration spread to proc once. Even if it's a pseudopet for the chaining mechanic, it should inherit the accuracy slotted into Disintegrate (the power). Is there any reason why Disintegrate -> Lancer Shot -> T9 isn't working for you as an opener? In my experience, enemies don't scatter the moment they're tagged with a ranged attack, the group of enemies all aggros and bum-rushes me. Certainly they don't scatter enough to outrange the disintegrate spread, and you don't need the status to be on every enemy before it's time to hit the nuke button.

 

 

Neither the T1 nor T2 is a 100% chance to (try to) spread. IIRC each is under 50%. The accuracy on the pet that does the spreading is 1.8 IIRC, so it also has to make a ToHit roll after both the T1/T2 attack (ceiling 95%) and the chance to spawn.

 

What I typically observe at range (with a standard x1 spawn) is that targeting one spawn with Disintegration will typically start that spawn moving (away from nearby allies). By the time Lancer Shot actually goes off, the spawn is often more than 15' away from any allies... and then the hyper-speed Stun takes over, which makes the placement of that (now Stunned critter) completely unpredictable... the smallish Sentinel AoEs do not help here. These powers all have non-zero cast times. I don't think we should count on the T9 attack being up for every spawn when considering set balance.

 

This is less noticeable if I change the spawn size (after the late-30s I was typically running the Sentinel at +0x3) OR the critters in a spawn stay at range. The latter should be obvious (spawn normally doesn't move, so it stays put... modulo Stun behavior) and with larger spawn sizes I simply worried less about opening with a Disintegration unless there was some sort of target I wanted 'softened up'. Larger spawns typically have more pockets of closely grouped enemies; the standard +0x1 3-critter spawn almost always has two critters within 15' of each other and the 3rd standing apart.

 

It was this standard spawn size where I was noticing the clunkiness of Beam Rifle's Disintegration (compared to Defender), because the Sentinel (a) has fewer attacks that could even spread try to spread Disintegration and (b) the AoE attacks basically end up being used against single-targets... at least for 'default' spawn sizes. The Disintegration effect is often (casually) mentioned as needing to be factored into 'DPS calculations' for the Beam Rifle set... but in the case of Sentinels it really feels like this barely moves the needle (without upping spawn sizes) because of the fewer available attacks to possibly spread Disintegration.

 

16 hours ago, FupDup said:

One possibility for an AOE enhancement could be turning Refractor Beam into a true chain attack, because right now the description is a lie. It's actually just a standard 15 ft circular AOE attack like Ball Lightning, M30, etc. This would further distinguish the set from not only its other AT counterpart but also other blast sets (right now the only chain blast attack is in Storm Blast). 

 

I'm ok with Refractor Beam as is (i.e. NOT a chain) for a couple of reasons:

• AFAIK, chain powers work via (pseudo)pets. If so, the accuracy of the pet would end up being 'fixed'. This could result in unintended consequences.
• as a 'Standard' ranged AoE power, it has better %damage options than it would as a straightforward ranged attack... also I think %procs would only really work against the initial target.

While the effect would look cooler, I think it would make choices for slotting the power a lot less interesting. This sort of change feels like it might break more than it fixes. I'd just update the power description!

[A.I.D.A.]

I mean, I don't really think it needs any change at all. I haven't noticed any issues spreading Disintegrate on the Beam Rifle characters I've played (Corruptor, and Sentinel). Groups of melee mobs don't split off from each other either, they run towards you in a blob. I don't really know what you mean by them spreading out. The only way mob groups spread out is if you put a patch underneath them that has a fear component -- enemies will move out of Caltrops rather than stay inside them, etc.