Focused Feedback: High-Level Council Revamp

[Coyotedancer]

33 minutes ago, KaizenSoze said:

I ran a few characters through after build 2 dropped.

 

Either the rezes were mostly avoidable or the pet damage was not severe. My Ninja/Trick Arrow MM had to work a lot less harder to achieve good results.

 

 

They toned down the autohit damage for pets quite a bit in the last update. That helps our MMs out a lot.

[ParagonKid]

5 hours ago, SwitchFade said:

And no, I will no longer do any testing. Why? I don't need to help fine tune a change I whole heartedly disagree with.

 

What you can do draw is attention to the changes after they drop and try to snowball any player discontent into something then. This is not the place to effect change; that is not the game that is played here.

[SwitchFade]

49 minutes ago, ParagonKid said:

What you can do draw is attention to the changes after they drop and try to snowball any player discontent into something then. This is not the place to effect change; that is not the game that is played here.

Topic of this thread: Focused Feedback: High-Level Council Revamp

 

Not the topic of this thread: hyperbole, straw men, personal attacks or debating other people's opinions.

 

We, the players, give FEEDBACK to the developers (it's right there in the title).

 

Please stay on topic.

[ivanhedgehog]

On 1/27/2024 at 3:40 PM, PeregrineFalcon said:

I was just on Brainstorm testing this. I was solo with a level 50 Tank doing radio missions on my island.

 

My tank is Invuln so Council have never been any real threat. With the changes I was actually taking some damage, not enough to really matter though, and I kept having to kill the Galaxies twice.

 

That doesn't really bother me though. I'm used to it from fighting Freakshow a lot.

 

Basically it didn't make them more of a threat, just more interesting.

The council had an identity. now they are freakshow junior. much rather have new sets than boost every ones base difficulty.

[ivanhedgehog]

11 hours ago, Coyotedancer said:

That most of us (Me included, here- 😅) have only been testing these guys and the new Circle either with teams anchored by 50's, or with our 50/50+ characters solo, is a good point... We need to try them out with more non-50 and non-finished characters. We know our stronger characters can handle them, but these things are going to show up "in the wild" well before everyone gets to that point.

 

I'm a "serial alt-ist". I finish one character completely before I move on to the next one, so I don't have a collection of unfinished non-50s in my crew to throw at the new goons, but I've moved the one that I *do* have (a level 45 Psi/Shield Brute with a partially put together IO set build) to the beta server. My plan for this afternoon is to run him against both these Council guys and the new Circle, just to see how he holds up. He doesn't run at +4/x8 solo at this point in his life in the live game, so he's definitely not in "Highpower McBadass"-territory yet. He'll be a fair test of what they're like for a soloing non-50 Joe Average, I think.

try them with characters with so's maybe? what we were supposed to be balancing on?

[ivanhedgehog]

1 hour ago, ParagonKid said:

What you can do draw is attention to the changes after they drop and try to snowball any player discontent into something then. This is not the place to effect change; that is not the game that is played here.

It seems that there is never a place for discussion about whether a change is needed or not. Its always just discussing the fine tuning of the changes. The grownups have decided what shall be and shut up and know your place.

[Coyotedancer]

9 minutes ago, ivanhedgehog said:

try them with characters with so's maybe? what we were supposed to be balancing on?

 

That brute of mine, who's only had part of what will be his final build done? He's mostly running on SOs. 😜

[PeregrineFalcon]

I tried testing the new Council with my level 30 Sentinel, but I couldn't get any radio missions with Council in the time that I was willing to spend on it.

 

In any case, I just boosted my Fire/Energy Sentinel up to level 40. Once again he had just even level SOs, except for a single Performance Shifter proc for the extra endurance. Now he also has Assault, Tractics, and Tough.

 

Radio missions at +1 x4, Council are way more difficult at this level than they are on the live servers. Of course, the fact that I ran into several groups that were all, or mostly, the new Galaxies probably had something to do with that. Is that really supposed to happen? In any case, a few inspirations and I was fine.

 

Definitely more interesting to fight than before.

[ivanhedgehog]

1 hour ago, PeregrineFalcon said:

I tried testing the new Council with my level 30 Sentinel, but I couldn't get any radio missions with Council in the time that I was willing to spend on it.

 

In any case, I just boosted my Fire/Energy Sentinel up to level 40. Once again he had just even level SOs, except for a single Performance Shifter proc for the extra endurance. Now he also has Assault, Tractics, and Tough.

 

Radio missions at +1 x4, Council are way more difficult at this level than they are on the live servers. Of course, the fact that I ran into several groups that were all, or mostly, the new Galaxies probably had something to do with that. Is that really supposed to happen? In any case, a few inspirations and I was fine.

 

Definitely more interesting to fight than before.

I would much rather seen a new faction and leave council for people that like boring. People that like the game they played for all those year that had boring parts going away. why does giving a few challenge take away from those that like the game as it is? add, dont take away

[StarkWhite]

Nobody is locked into +4/x8.

If you want the content to be more boring, *turn your difficulty down.*

I've tested solo at +0/x1 with bosses and AVs turned off. The difference from Page 6 is barely even noticeable. I haven't had time to ramp up in steps and see at which difficulty it starts to become apparent, but it's on my agenda.

[ParagonKid]

3 hours ago, StarkWhite said:

Nobody is locked into +4/x8.

If you want the content to be more boring, *turn your difficulty down.*

I've tested solo at +0/x1 with bosses and AVs turned off. The difference from Page 6 is barely even noticeable. I haven't had time to ramp up in steps and see at which difficulty it starts to become apparent, but it's on my agenda.

Nobody is locked into teaming with Incarnates, either. If you don't like how fast your team steamrolls, find a different team.

Changing mobs to correct a problem that can be solved by the choices of the player with the problem and force everyone else to change just to please THEM, is ludicrous.

To paraphrase Tom Petty, "you don't need to change what don't need to change".

Edited January 29 by ParagonKid

[kenlon]

1 hour ago, ParagonKid said:

Changing mobs to correct a problem that can be solved by the choices of the player with the problem and force everyone else to change just to please THEM, is ludicrous.

 

If you have a problem with the new Council, you can change difficulty settings. Because that's what they are for. People who want the Council to not be complete pushovers do not have the option to go to higher difficulty than +4/x8.

[ParagonKid]

40 minutes ago, kenlon said:

 

If you have a problem with the new Council, you can change difficulty settings. Because that's what they are for. People who want the Council to not be complete pushovers do not have the option to go to higher difficulty than +4/x8.

They do not have to team with 7 other players who are Incarnates. THAT is their option to control the difficulty.

Why should my gameplay change to solve their problem?

 

When someone walks into a room full of people and says "I'm cold" while everyone else is comfortable, and then turns up the heat rather than put on a sweater, that makes them the one in the wrong. If someone wants to jack up the thermostat and tell everyone else to strip if they don't like it, they're the unreasonable jerk. Everyone else aren't jerks for wanting the room to stay as it is.

[KaizenSoze]

5 minutes ago, ParagonKid said:

They do not have to team with 7 other players who are Incarnates. THAT is their option to control the difficulty.

Why should my gameplay change to solve their problem?

 

When someone walks into a room full of people and says "I'm cold" while everyone else is comfortable, and then turns up the heat rather than put on a sweater, that makes them the one in the wrong. If someone wants to jack up the thermostat and tell everyone else to strip if they don't like it, they're the unreasonable jerk. Everyone else aren't jerks for wanting the room to stay as it is.

The problem it doesn't take 7 Incarnates to trivialize level 50 content. Two or three players can carry an entire radio team currently.

 

Are you going to run teams that don't allow Incarnate players? /lfg PI radio 4x8 no Incarnates allowed. Not mocking your opinion, just pointing out the impracticability.

Incarnates trivialize most level 50 content. Nobody wants to nerf Incarnates, though I would like to see some powers nerfed, but that's not going to happen. So, the only way make it not trivial is to make the mobs harder. Something I have wanted for a long time.

The only way you're going to get teams without Incarnates is to organize SG events.

[Andreah]

5 minutes ago, KaizenSoze said:

Are you going to run teams that don't allow Incarnate players?

I see advertisements for no-incarnate teams on very rare occasions. Often, someone is trying to help more people still trying to get to 50 or incarnates, not artificially increase the challenge. 

 

A person could also lock their level at 44 and then farm radios, exemping down below level 45 shuts all the incarnate powers off. 

 

I don't like parts of this update (any kind of auto-hit = bad design, imo), but overall I think it will work out fine. But, I'm the sort who would run Arachnos only radios if it were possible to avoid cave maps with them. That's the real reason I run Council PI radio teams -- they NEVER have caves; only sewers, warehouses, and offices.

 

Take intangibility (and caves) away from the Carnival, and I'd run them too. 

 

Circle are a common "second choice" for folks, because they have fewer of these annoying gimmick features, but still, sadly, like to hide their mission objectives in caves.

[Coyotedancer]

Just another reminder of something that's way too easy to forget...

 

THESE CHANGES ARE *NOT* JUST LEVEL 50 CONTENT

 

These new mobs are going to start showing up in any Council missions a character takes in their level range, which starts well before level 50 and is in no way limited to Radio missions. Non-Incarnates will be seeing them on a regular basis. They're not limited only to what smash-fest steam-roller teams will encounter.  The new Circle likewise.

 

Don't get so wound up in what smash-teams are doing that you lose sight of everything else. They aren't all we have to consider when asking "Are these changes generally fine, or are they potentially over-compensating for one high end situation to a point that's troublesome for everything else?"

 

Yes. A non-50 can turn down the difficulty. But is that actually enough to make them manageable? Is it reasonable to tell a soloing 46 on SOs and a few procs that they're stuck at.... say. +0x1 with no bosses? Maybe? That's something worth asking. 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited January 29 by Coyotedancer

[StarkWhite]

Here's the thing. +4/x8 is not the default difficulty. It is, in fact, the player telling the game that they want it to be much harder.

Or at least it was supposed to be. Homecoming's ridiculously easy access to invention sets and incarnate powers has warped the playstyle of its playerbase, because literally anybody can have a build, with minimal effort, that was *extremely difficult and time-consuming* to achieve pre-sunset. And as a result players' perception of the difficulty slider has become completely skewed.

It's not a mortal insult to suggest that if something is too difficult, *turn the difficulty down*.

[Tigraine]

12 minutes ago, StarkWhite said:

Here's the thing. +4/x8 is not the default difficulty. It is, in fact, the player telling the game that they want it to be much harder.

Or at least it was supposed to be. Homecoming's ridiculously easy access to invention sets and incarnate powers has warped the playstyle of its playerbase, because literally anybody can have a build, with minimal effort, that was *extremely difficult and time-consuming* to achieve pre-sunset. And as a result players' perception of the difficulty slider has become completely skewed.

It's not a mortal insult to suggest that if something is too difficult, *turn the difficulty down*.

 

I already regularly run at lower difficulties.  What do you suggest I do after these changes?  You can only scale down so far.

[StarkWhite]

1 minute ago, Tigraine said:

 

I already regularly run at lower difficulties.  What do you suggest I do after these changes?  You can only scale down so far.

At lower difficulties these changes are barely there. Have you tested them?

[Coyotedancer]

11 minutes ago, StarkWhite said:

 literally anybody can have a build, with minimal effort, 

 

 

Sure they can... AT LEVEL 50.

At the sub-50 levels where these mobs start to show up? Not so much.

 

That's the point of needing to test them with more than just our over-engineered Incarnate Badasses and smash-teams. Don't assume finished characters are the only ones who have to deal with these guys. It's tempting to design for the high end and forget everything else. I'd prefer we didn't make that oversight while we're trying things out.

[Tigraine]

5 minutes ago, StarkWhite said:

At lower difficulties these changes are barely there. Have you tested them?

 

On 1/28/2024 at 4:54 AM, Tigraine said:

Unfortunately it will be a while before I can test this out for myself, possibly not until after this page is out of beta (dealing with an injury making prolonged mouse use difficult).  

 

[StarkWhite]

14 minutes ago, Coyotedancer said:

 

 

Sure they can... AT LEVEL 50.

At the sub-50 levels where these mobs start to show up? Not so much.

 

That's the point of needing to test them with more than just our over-engineered Incarnate Badasses and smash-teams. Don't assume finished characters are the only ones who have to deal with these guys. It's tempting to design for the high end and forget everything else. I'd prefer we didn't make that oversight while we're trying things out.

I have exactly one character that uses invention sets and incarnate powers.

All of my Page 7 testing has been with a variety of 40-50 SO-only characters.

(EDIT: All of my testing on *this* topic. I've also done a bunch of brand-new level 1 character testing for other things.)

Edited January 29 by StarkWhite

[Coyotedancer]

1 minute ago, StarkWhite said:

I have exactly one character that uses invention sets and incarnate powers.

All of my Page 7 testing has been with a variety of 40-50 SO-only characters.

 

Good! I've done the last few runs with a lvl 45 Brute who's mostly on SOs, too.

 

We just need to get more people out there checking them with characters like that instead of focusing exclusively on high-end finished 50s. 

[Coyotedancer]

Sorry for the double post here, but I just got kicked off of Brainstorm by the server shutting down, so I may as well talk about what I've found out so far this afternoon from running my lvl 45 Brute around in New Council missions...

 

Running at his usual +1x4 difficulty, they're definitely no slouches. Like the revamped Circle I sent him after yesterday, they're not impossible for a Brute to handle, but they definitely hit him harder than the Live version, and two groups at a time can turn inro an absolute disaster faster than you can say "three guys rezzing and a big, snarly warwolf".  On anything squishier than a Brute, I'd have to turn down the numbers, I suspect. 

 

Anyway, they're in rough-but-not-impossible territory for a not-finished/mostly-SO sub-50 soloing melee. 

[PeregrineFalcon]

6 hours ago, Coyotedancer said:

Yes. A non-50 can turn down the difficulty. But is that actually enough to make them manageable? Is it reasonable to tell a soloing 46 on SOs and a few procs that they're stuck at.... say. +0x1 with no bosses? Maybe? That's something worth asking.

Is it reasonable to tell someone that if they run in to problems, in an MMO, to either turn down the difficulty or team with another person?

 

Yes. It is entirely reasonable to tell them that.

 

I was soloing with a level 40 Sentinel with even level SOs at +1 x4. Anyone who solos at +0 x1 isn't going to notice the difference when this goes live, except that the Galaxy dude now has a bubble around him for no apparent reason.

 

Asked and answered. Objection overruled!