Have the Fighting Pool powers increase Brawl's Damage

[rolandgrey]

Brawl does a pittance of damage and it's mostly unnecessary to enhance in any fashion.  There are only a few builds that could actually want to use it, such as if you have a Shield Defense character and want to see the shield bash animation, but it otherwise winds up being an ignored or forgotten power.

 

Right now, it synergizes with the Fighting Pool powers by having a reduction in enemy Recharge and To Hit (with Boxing and/or Kick, with the effect increasing when the character has both), and a reduction in Regeneration and Recovery with Cross Punch.  And that's crap synergy.  It takes a LOT of -ToHit to have an appreciable effect, whatever -Recharge is happening isn't noticeable and enemies largely don't care about -Recovery (because so long as they have 1 End, they can use any and all of their powers without cost).  The only thing useful in that mix is the -Regeneration, but even that isn't really noticeable.

 

Brawl is a power that doesn't cause Redraw, it has different animations depending on the weapon or shield the character is using, it has potential to be a really interesting power, but it's held back by the fact that no matter what you do, it only deals a sliver of damage to the enemy.  It doesn't even match the lowest damaging attacks.

 

Also, reading the Detailed Info on the power, I find it really aggravating that it's just straight LYING to us.  It says it's dealing 47 Average Damage at 13, 56 per Activation Time, and 16 per Cast Cycle.  Then I watch a Brawl connect with an enemy and it only deals 10 damage.  There is one level 15 Damage SO in the power right now.  Meanwhile, thanks to "Fighting Synergy" I can't even get an accurate number of what Boxing is doing.  However, I can tell what my Titan Weapons attacks are doing and they give MUCH more accurate 14 and 6 Damage per Activation Time on Titan Sweep and Defensive Sweep respectively (because guess what numbers show up over enemy heads when they're hit!).  This is infuriating.  We're supposed to be getting detailed information on the powers to work with them properly, but how can we do that when some don't even show their damage and others are outright lying to us?

 

Brawl is supposed to be a useful power, but it instead falls to the wayside as it becomes nigh useless when compared to other attacks.  I feel this is a disservice to the players, especially when considering all of the different animations the power goes through based on the context of the skeleton.  Boxing and Kick increase each other's damage output, they should be doing the same for Brawl at the very least.

[FupDup]

I'd be completely fine with improving the existing fighting synergy effects of the power, but it's important to point out that Brawl's role in the power roster is just to help you make do at very early levels (like the ranged origin powers) while you're still filling out your attack chains and it gives you something to do when you've got literally 0 endurance left.

 

A primary/secondary damage set like TW is supposed to outperform it, and by more than just a small margin. However, adding increased damage to the fighting synergy effects would still be useful for ATs that might lack proper damage sets or have ranged sets by default and want to spend more time throwing hands instead. 

Edited November 24, 2023 by FupDup

[Rudra]

3 hours ago, rolandgrey said:

Right now, it synergizes with the Fighting Pool powers by having a reduction in enemy Recharge and To Hit (with Boxing and/or Kick, with the effect increasing when the character has both), and a reduction in Regeneration and Recovery with Cross Punch.  And that's crap synergy.  It takes a LOT of -ToHit to have an appreciable effect, whatever -Recharge is happening isn't noticeable and enemies largely don't care about -Recovery (because so long as they have 1 End, they can use any and all of their powers without cost).  The only thing useful in that mix is the -Regeneration, but even that isn't really noticeable.

I have issues with this statement. I went to City of Data, but I am unwilling to try and figure out the expressions listed. So I'm using Mids for this. Brawl with Boxing, Kick, and Cross Punch has a -10% Recovery, -0.1% Regeneration, -20% ToHit, and -10% Recharge debuff. While I never realized there was any -regen' there, the rest is actually rather useful. Dark Melee only imposes a -7.5% ToHit for instance. And with only a single recharge reduction enhancement and no global recharge reduction effect, Brawl can be used every 1.4 seconds. At 0 END cost. That's a lot of debuffing.

 

(Also, my electric characters will happily dispute your claim that enemies can use any and every attack in their arsenal with only 1 END available. I've kept enemies locked to using only Brawl or their weakest attack because it is the only thing they can use when their recovery triggers just before my attack rips that END away. Brawl does not take away the target's END, just their recovery, so you won't see that effect with Brawl the way you would with Electric Melee.)

 

3 hours ago, rolandgrey said:

Also, reading the Detailed Info on the power, I find it really aggravating that it's just straight LYING to us.  It says it's dealing 47 Average Damage at 13, 56 per Activation Time, and 16 per Cast Cycle.  Then I watch a Brawl connect with an enemy and it only deals 10 damage.

The Detailed Info only gives what the power does. It does not say what it does after the target's damage resistance is applied. That isn't lying.

 

3 hours ago, rolandgrey said:

Brawl is supposed to be a useful power, but it instead falls to the wayside as it becomes nigh useless when compared to other attacks.  I feel this is a disservice to the players, especially when considering all of the different animations the power goes through based on the context of the skeleton.  Boxing and Kick increase each other's damage output, they should be doing the same for Brawl at the very least.

Like @FupDup said, Brawl is a filler power players can use when low level and still lacking their attack chains or when END drained so they can still fight. It is not an AT primary/secondary power. It should not be able to compete with those powers. However, it does rather well when you take up the Fighting pool because with all 4 attacks, you get -5% Recovery, -3% END, and (chance for) KD from kick, another -5% Recovery, -2% END, and (chance for) Stun from Boxing, -10% ToHit, (chance for) KD, and self buffs from Cross Punch, and Brawling finishes it off with its previously listed Fighting pool provided debuffs. (And you can still use Brawl while at 0 END whereas every other attack power in the game requires END to use.)

 

I don't care if the devs decide to make Boxing and Kick boost Brawl's damage as well, so I'm not opposed to the OP. However, your justification is in error.

[Nayeh]

Sounds great! Just make sure to add the Fighting Pool as an inherit power. I probably won't be Brawling, but you guys have at it so I can finally re-optimize my Builds for powers that actually matter.

[Saiyajinzoningen]

maybe add a -fly modification to brawl since not every powerset has it built in.

[arcane]

Sounds like Brawl is working as intended already if it’s not competing with powers that actually require a power slot investment.

[Rudra]

14 minutes ago, Saiyajinzoningen said:

maybe add a -fly modification to brawl since not every powerset has it built in.

I would rather either no change or a 1-2% damage boost from Boxing and Kick than add a -Fly component to Brawl. Things like Air Superiority and the storms having a -Fly component makes sense. Not so much with the generic ability to throw a basic punch. With the debuffs the Fighting pool attacks have inherently and acquire from possessing the other Fighting pool attacks, the debuffs they give Brawl still make sense. (Though I am amazed at the -10% Recharge and -20% ToHit Brawl picks up when you have everything, they still fit with what the Fighting pool does. -Fly does not.)

[kelika2]

sure

because even if it did it still wont be top tier.  i had a thug/sonic thinking i would be the second bruiser and no, my pistols did more damage at the end of the day

[Rudra]

11 minutes ago, kelika2 said:

sure

because even if it did it still wont be top tier.  i had a thug/sonic thinking i would be the second bruiser and no, my pistols did more damage at the end of the day

Aren't they supposed to?

[Akisan]

On 11/24/2023 at 7:55 AM, rolandgrey said:

There are only a few builds that could actually want to use it, such as if you have a Shield Defense character and want to see the shield bash animation, but it otherwise winds up being an ignored or forgotten power.

 

Oof, guilty.  I still use it on my archer because that animation is a kick to the groin, and it's oddly extremely satisfying to finish off minions that way (especially after they survive a quick snipe with 1HP).

 

Could go either way on whether it needs a buff, though - it's true I don't use it after about level 10 on most of my toons, but as they've said, it's primarily a filler attack to use while we don't have enough recharge or endurance to make a real attack.

[Thraxen]

It’s a lot of fun on a pistol or rifle toon too. Pistol whipping them

  

[MsSmart]

Brawl, Boxing and Kick are pointless to use in an attack, their best use is as enhancement IO mules. Really wish they did real damage.

 

Sue

Edited December 5, 2023 by MsSmart