Perma Elude

[Nitekilla]

Is Perma Elude possible now with IO set bonuses?

[RussHood]

If what i hear is correct, the bonuses stacked up from IOs allows SR to softcap defense without elude, effectively making it useless as it doesnt add any extra effective survival, but still crashes you at the end

[Nitekilla]

It adds run speed and massive endurance recovery

[SwitchFade]

If what i hear is correct, the bonuses stacked up from IOs allows SR to softcap defense without elude, effectively making it useless as it doesnt add any extra effective survival, but still crashes you at the end

 

While technically true in regards to SR being able to softcap, bare in mind that soft cap is not a 95% chance to not get hit as enemy level and designation scales up. At +4/boss, soft cap is questionable, and elude does have value.

 

Soft cap only floors an enemy chance to hit you down to 5% in certain situations. That said, someone will be able to post the values under which elude may be perma-able, as I cannot from my mobile, at work.

[jack_nomind]

Is Perma Elude possible now with IO set bonuses?

 

To answer the actual question -- no, it is not, neither with set bonuses nor with any in-game bonus at all.  The maximum possible recharge rate is 500%; Elude has a 180s uptime and 1000s recharge, which means that even with maximum recharge bonus at all times there's still a 20s gap.

 

In terms of recharge rates achievable with set bonuses (and Hasten and Alpha slot), you're looking at something like at most 300% anyway, which leaves 153s of gap.

[Nitekilla]

Is Perma Elude possible now with IO set bonuses?

 

To answer the actual question -- no, it is not, neither with set bonuses nor with any in-game bonus at all.  The maximum possible recharge rate is 500%; Elude has a 180s uptime and 1000s recharge, which means that even with maximum recharge bonus at all times there's still a 20s gap.

 

In terms of recharge rates achievable with set bonuses (and Hasten and Alpha slot), you're looking at something like at most 300% anyway, which leaves 153s of gap.

 

Does this include quickness ?  Quickness adds 20 % recharge rate to Elude.

[Adeon Hawkwood]

Does this include quickness ?  Quickness adds 20 % recharge rate to Elude.

Yes, all recharge bonuses (enhancements, set bonuses, other powers, external buffs and alpha slot) are added together and cap out at a limit of 500%. So no power can ever have it's recharge time reduced below 20% of the initial time.

[Venture]

If what i hear is correct, the bonuses stacked up from IOs allows SR to softcap defense without elude, effectively making it useless as it doesnt add any extra effective survival, but still crashes you at the end

 

While technically true in regards to SR being able to softcap, bare in mind that soft cap is not a 95% chance to not get hit as enemy level and designation scales up. At +4/boss, soft cap is questionable, and elude does have value.

 

Soft cap only floors an enemy chance to hit you down to 5% in certain situations. That said, someone will be able to post the values under which elude may be perma-able, as I cannot from my mobile, at work.

 

Softcap floors the enemies chance to hit you down to 5% in all situations barring the enemy having to hit buffs or defense debuffs:

 

Defense. +45% is the soft cap on Defense versus an attack. Due to the way the game's Attack Mechanics work, any more Defense past that will not make the character any harder to hit, except in cases where the attackers have ToHit buffs, are six or more levels above him, or can give him -Defense debuffs.

 

And exceeding the softcap gives you better protection if the enemy had Defense Debuffs

 

 

 

 

 

[SwitchFade]

If what i hear is correct, the bonuses stacked up from IOs allows SR to softcap defense without elude, effectively making it useless as it doesnt add any extra effective survival, but still crashes you at the end

 

While technically true in regards to SR being able to softcap, bare in mind that soft cap is not a 95% chance to not get hit as enemy level and designation scales up. At +4/boss, soft cap is questionable, and elude does have value.

 

Soft cap only floors an enemy chance to hit you down to 5% in certain situations. That said, someone will be able to post the values under which elude may be perma-able, as I cannot from my mobile, at work.

 

Softcap floors the enemies chance to hit you down to 5% in all situations barring the enemy having to hit buffs or defense debuffs:

 

Defense. +45% is the soft cap on Defense versus an attack. Due to the way the game's Attack Mechanics work, any more Defense past that will not make the character any harder to hit, except in cases where the attackers have ToHit buffs, are six or more levels above him, or can give him -Defense debuffs.

 

And exceeding the softcap gives you better protection if the enemy had Defense Debuffs

 

Which is why I mentioned what I did. There are certain situations where softcap is not 5% chance

[Adeon Hawkwood]

Softcap floors the enemies chance to hit you down to 5% in all situations barring the enemy having to hit buffs or defense debuffs

It floors their chance to hit, but it's only 5% for even-level minions. Enemies that are higher level than you as well as non-minion enemies (Lts, Bosses etc.) get an accuracy bonus to their to hit chance which is applied after the defense calculation. So for example a +1 Boss would get a 10% acc bonus for the level difference and a 30% accuracy bonus for being a boss giving a total To Hit chance of 7% even against soft capped defenses.

 

 

[jack_nomind]

What Adeon said.  There's no value of Defense, whether 45% or 200000% (which is impossible but just for argument's sake) that floors hit chance to 5% against +4/AVs.  Elude does not change this and (generally) will make no difference against AVs.

[Venture]

Softcap floors the enemies chance to hit you down to 5% in all situations barring the enemy having to hit buffs or defense debuffs

It floors their chance to hit, but it's only 5% for even-level minions. Enemies that are higher level than you as well as non-minion enemies (Lts, Bosses etc.) get an accuracy bonus to their to hit chance which is applied after the defense calculation. So for example a +1 Boss would get a 10% acc bonus for the level difference and a 30% accuracy bonus for being a boss giving a total To Hit chance of 7% even against soft capped defenses.

 

True but against a +4 AV:

 

With soft-capped defense, that AV has a  10.5% chance to hit you. With 45% defense, a +4 AV will only hit you one time in ten, which is less often than an even level minion will hit someone with 35% defense.

 

So yeah, floored may have been a poor choice of words. i didnt mean to imply the hit chance would remain at 5% but rather that it would still be ridiculously low.

 

 

Also bear in mind that the incarnate softcap is effectively 59% so Elude is definitely of use there.

 

[HelenCarnate]

Even if you somehow managed to get at the recharge cap, Elude would not be perma.

[arcanaville]

If what i hear is correct, the bonuses stacked up from IOs allows SR to softcap defense without elude, effectively making it useless as it doesnt add any extra effective survival, but still crashes you at the end

 

While technically true in regards to SR being able to softcap, bare in mind that soft cap is not a 95% chance to not get hit as enemy level and designation scales up. At +4/boss, soft cap is questionable, and elude does have value.

 

Soft cap only floors an enemy chance to hit you down to 5% in certain situations. That said, someone will be able to post the values under which elude may be perma-able, as I cannot from my mobile, at work.

 

Softcap floors the enemies chance to hit you down to 5% in all situations barring the enemy having to hit buffs or defense debuffs:

 

This is technically true, but I should note here that one place enemies can get implicit tohit buffs that I think most people have forgotten about is that above +5 the combat modifiers started giving tohit increases to enemies again.  Originally, enemies got higher tohit for being higher combat level than you: a patch in I7 changed those tohit increases to accuracy increases, but only up to +5.  Above +5, enemies got both accuracy bonuses and scaling upward tohit increases.  This isn't a situation you generally face, but it is there.

 

So basically what players called the (defense) soft cap was really five percentage points lower than the base tohit of enemies (because the absolute tohit floor was 5%).  That was normally 50%, so the defense soft cap was 45%.  But against anything with a different base tohit or increased tohit (from buffs, combat modifiers, or anywhere else) defense values higher than 45% would still do something.

 

As to perma-Elude, as others have mentioned the updated Elude with the 1000 second recharge made perma-elude literally impossible.  Without the ability to go perma, most people shifted their attention to invention builds that tried to get to in the vicinity of 45% defense, plus or minus.  Some people did still like taking Elude and using it in some situations, and some people even constructed builds that tried to keep Elude up most of the time and just rode out the downtime, but this was a minority option.

[Llewellyn Blackwell]

Is Perma Elude possible now with IO set bonuses?

 

To answer the actual question -- no, it is not, neither with set bonuses nor with any in-game bonus at all.  The maximum possible recharge rate is 500%; Elude has a 180s uptime and 1000s recharge, which means that even with maximum recharge bonus at all times there's still a 20s gap.

 

In terms of recharge rates achievable with set bonuses (and Hasten and Alpha slot), you're looking at something like at most 300% anyway, which leaves 153s of gap.

 

This sounds about right, back at the end of live I had an SR who was as global recharge specced as a build could be, and regularly ran with kins, and had all the recharge stuff from incarnate. I did find however that Phase shift filled the gap nicely, and a blue was all it took to avoid a pants down issue. And then I frankly stopped taking SR toggles,  just the autos and elude kept your defs so high even against def debuffers you didnt need fear.

 

And when you think about it, there is nothing more top of the hill for an untouchable defense then literally becoming untouchable when you would otherwise be at your most vulnerable.

[Solarverse]

I have to ask....is this for PvP? If so, don't waste your time with Defensive sets in PvP. With all the +ToHit going around with IO's these days, your Elude will get you face planted. For PvP, I suggest Elec Armor. You can get 75% Resists with IOs easy and reach the soft cap on almost everything. Toxic/Dark/Psionic being the exception. Toxic around 24%, Negative around 62% and Psionic around 70%...which Negative and Psionic still gives you close to soft cap resist. Couple this with a Self heal and you're golden.

 

My two cents, just in case you are trying to build for PvP.

[jack_nomind]

I have to ask....is this for PvP? If so, don't waste your time with Defensive sets in PvP. With all the +ToHit going around with IO's these days, your Elude will get you face planted. For PvP, I suggest Elec Armor. You can get 75% Resists with IOs easy and reach the soft cap on almost everything.

 

Since we're making this an educational thread -- this mistakes two things.  First, there is only one set-type enhancement that gives a +tohit bonus all the time (the misleadingly named Karma +6% Accuracy), and only a few that give proc +tohit (like Gaussian's).  It's worth making the distinction because there *is* some kind of bonus which affects hit chance that's making Defense ineffective, which is Accuracy.  Accuracy and ToHit apply at different stages of the hit calculation, but Defense only works against ToHit.

 

To counteract this, most Defense sets (SR included) get elusivity in PvP, which *does* work against accuracy.  This is one implementation of Arcanaville's proposed anti-accuracy which... well since she's here, perhaps she'll generously explain since she can do a better job than I can.  And perhaps renew her campaign to get a version of it in PvE?

 

I'm not terribly familiar with PvP builds but as far as I can tell there's some misinformation that's hurting the no-Defense advice.  Realistically Elude *should* help a great deal in PvP because if it's slotted for Defense it ought to still floor enemy ToHit (since it would be the biggest bonus, calculated first to bypass PvP diminishment, and do >-70% -- with the rest of the set counteracting Tactics/Aim/BU/etc ToHit) and then SR's elusivity should dramatically reduce the effects of accuracy slotting.

 

It's possible that I'm forgetting something about PvP (notably, I'm basing this in part on the idea that stacked ToHit and Accuracy bonuses should be scaling down to the point of near-irrelevance at absurd investment levels, and that inspirations are affected by this diminishment as well) so perhaps I'm mistaken.  Either way, it's not the voltage that kills you, it's the +acc.

 

The other error is that 'softcap' is a point of functional maximum effect before the game actually cuts off the stat (a hard cap), so Defense has a softcap (usually 45) well below most archetypes' hard cap (around 200).  If Resistance had a softcap, it would be 100% -- but the hard cap is always below that.

[Solarverse]

I have to ask....is this for PvP? If so, don't waste your time with Defensive sets in PvP. With all the +ToHit going around with IO's these days, your Elude will get you face planted. For PvP, I suggest Elec Armor. You can get 75% Resists with IOs easy and reach the soft cap on almost everything.

 

Since we're making this an educational thread -- this mistakes two things.  First, there is only one set-type enhancement that gives a +tohit bonus all the time (the misleadingly named Karma +6% Accuracy), and only a few that give proc +tohit (like Gaussian's).  It's worth making the distinction because there *is* some kind of bonus which affects hit chance that's making Defense ineffective, which is Accuracy.  Accuracy and ToHit apply at different stages of the hit calculation, but Defense only works against ToHit.

 

To counteract this, most Defense sets (SR included) get elusivity in PvP, which *does* work against accuracy.  This is one implementation of Arcanaville's proposed anti-accuracy which... well since she's here, perhaps she'll generously explain since she can do a better job than I can.  And perhaps renew her campaign to get a version of it in PvE?

 

I'm not terribly familiar with PvP builds but as far as I can tell there's some misinformation that's hurting the no-Defense advice.  Realistically Elude *should* help a great deal in PvP because if it's slotted for Defense it ought to still floor enemy ToHit (since it would be the biggest bonus, calculated first to bypass PvP diminishment, and do >-70% -- with the rest of the set counteracting Tactics/Aim/BU/etc ToHit) and then SR's elusivity should dramatically reduce the effects of accuracy slotting.

 

It's possible that I'm forgetting something about PvP (notably, I'm basing this in part on the idea that stacked ToHit and Accuracy bonuses should be scaling down to the point of near-irrelevance at absurd investment levels, and that inspirations are affected by this diminishment as well) so perhaps I'm mistaken.  Either way, it's not the voltage that kills you, it's the +acc.

 

The other error is that 'softcap' is a point of functional maximum effect before the game actually cuts off the stat (a hard cap), so Defense has a softcap (usually 45) well below most archetypes' hard cap (around 200).  If Resistance had a softcap, it would be 100% -- but the hard cap is always below that.

 

Here is what I can tell you...on Live, I played as a Stalker with a min/maxed build. I also PvPed, I pretty much lived in WB...and when RV came out, I moved to there. Once IO's came out it changed everything. I was getting smacked through Elude like I had nothing. This happened very consistently. Accuracy bonuses in sets + ToHit buffs that people could get in the Epic Pools, plus the other bonuses in IOs made life as a Defensive Stalker miserable.

 

If this person you speak of has a way to counter that, great. However, Elec is where it's at until then. I lost my faith in Defensive sets for PvP in the level 50 zones. Pre RV, Defense probably is still functional. However, most players who PvP shoot for high accuracy and high +tohit, and almost always stacked, as most on a team will all have tactics.

 

IMO, running with Defense in PvP is just far too risky.