Redside... Best side? Right??

[Rudra]

3 hours ago, Vic Raiden said:

Looking at the old Prima guide reminded me that Arachnos apparently didn't even use to exist prior to CoV's launch, and apparently was only made so that redside players could have some overarching master/support network like blueside's Freedom Corps. Except it kinda falls flat because not only are Arachnos troops valid enemies everywhere except overworld Mercy, but the content is kind of schizophrenic about whether you're supposed to be working for, alongside, or against Arachnos - and even at the highest levels, your actions mean almost nothing beyond clapping some redside-exclusive competing villain forces.

 

And even apparentlier, some old plan for CoV was that you'd be able to join one of the pre-established forces of evil depending on your character's origin. All I can say here is I wish that indeed came to pass...

Arachnos both existed and didn't exist prior to CoV. There was no faction to fight against, but when you did the Hess TF, Hess gave you an Arachnos pin. They were in the background, but not a built faction ready to fight.

 

(Edit: After CoV launched, Hess stopped giving out the pin.)

 

Edited May 21 by Rudra
Edited to correct "gives" to "gave".

[Vic Raiden]

Still, Arachnos overdose may be a problem for some people. There's just no challenging them in a meaningful way, almost every other mission is all about either furthering their interests at the cost of other forces of evil, or sabotaging them in some way that can still be argued to be beneficial to Arachnos because social darwinism. And no matter what you do, you're doomed to being another one of Lord Recluse's personal lackeys at most, with zero opportunities to be your own master. It's just so far removed from an average supervillain fantasy that it's not even funny.

 

Sorry if I'm starting to sound like a broken record, by the way.

[Triumphant]

2 hours ago, Vic Raiden said:

Still, Arachnos overdose may be a problem for some people. There's just no challenging them in a meaningful way, almost every other mission is all about either furthering their interests at the cost of other forces of evil, or sabotaging them in some way that can still be argued to be beneficial to Arachnos because social darwinism. And no matter what you do, you're doomed to being another one of Lord Recluse's personal lackeys at most, with zero opportunities to be your own master. It's just so far removed from an average supervillain fantasy that it's not even funny.

 

Sorry if I'm starting to sound like a broken record, by the way.

I mean, it's somewhat the same on the Hero Side.  You can beat up Villains, toss gangs in jail, and thwart numerous plots, but the NPC heroes and SG's (Freedom Phalanx, Longbow, etc.) are the famous ones, while most everyone else is just a freelancer registered with the NBSA or they're on Hero Corps payroll or an auxiliary member of Vanguard.  

I think the best way to overcome this feeling is custom AE missions tailored to your personal supergroup.  Apart from that, the devs could bring in new missions designed around player super groups for characters lvls 10+.  Maybe you could code the mission prompts to access the player's SG name when running the mission, with the player SG/VG being called upon to do some epic thing that will place them firmly in the ranks of the Freedom Phalanx and other legacy teams.  Specifically with regard to the OP of this topic, maybe an Arbiter with a beef with one of the power patrons helps the player villain to dethrone one of these guys and take their place (or, at least, gain equivalent power, control of an area or station in the Rogue Isles, etc.)

 

But to some extent, real, permanent change has to be imagined/rp'ed/internalized, because you can't permanently change the base game structure every time a player does something new in game, in with a desire to change the world and be the universes main protagonnist/superstar.  So parts of the game world will always remain static, and therefore retain the feeling that you really can't change the status quo.  I guess you could plan huge updates for every "X" number of years that would sort of simulate this (The Rikti Invasion, The arrival of The Battalion, so on), but those are huge undertakings that may be outside of the scope of capabilities of a team that is essentially a free, fan-based operation.

 

For the most part, the onus is always going to be on the player to make their own fun in this way, and that falls almost entirely to using your own imagination and the imagination of like-minded players to carve out your own little RP, in your own corner of this universe.

[Eiko-chan]

6 hours ago, Vic Raiden said:

Still, Arachnos overdose may be a problem for some people. There's just no challenging them in a meaningful way, almost every other mission is all about either furthering their interests at the cost of other forces of evil, or sabotaging them in some way that can still be argued to be beneficial to Arachnos because social darwinism. And no matter what you do, you're doomed to being another one of Lord Recluse's personal lackeys at most, with zero opportunities to be your own master. It's just so far removed from an average supervillain fantasy that it's not even funny.

 

Sorry if I'm starting to sound like a broken record, by the way.

Every single Patron Arc ends with you tossing Recluse's own mask at his feet that you tore off his corpse in an alternate future where he had just finished defeating the Freedom Phalanx - ie, at the absolute height of his power. He sends you on the Strike Force against the Phalanx because he can't do it himself. Both politically and from the standpoint of power.

 

You absolutely do not end up "just another lackey" of Arachnos in CoV. You end up an independent power that they can't do anything about.

[tidge]

Players may have feels about preferring the hero side over the villain side, but I disagree that it is the writing of the arcs red side.

 

The best blue-side writing is IMO the original, slow reveals of the relationships of the different factions... but as much as I like this, it is really confusing (Lorewise, at least to me) why some contacts are forcing "investigations" on PCs about enemy types when there really can't be any mystery about what is going on, given how certain enemy groups appear (especially if Tips are used). There really is no agency blue side, except 2XP I suppose. "Who will die?" is pretty bad for player agency blue side, it offers IMO slightly more red side. I will give a thumbs-up to the revamped Faultline arcs blue side.

 

The red-side arcs are a mix of contacts trying to take advantage of the PCs, as well as more mercenary type of missions, until the PCs ultimately best whatever the contacts have. Playing red-side makes it possible to defeat almost all the named blue-side heroes/trainers, as well as all the villain patrons and lackeys, simply by doing arcs. You can even get your revenge on multiple different contacts that may have treated you "wrong". You want to face a CoV Patron blue side? You are generally limited to hoping they decide to rob a bank, or go to Recluse's Victory.

 

 

[Vic Raiden]

Spent a longer while browsing the various old threads about thinking of ways to make redside more engaging...

I really vibe with the idea of letting redside players stir up invasions and other events for bluesiders to deal with. Ideally, it could be something both sides can benefit from.

[Vic Raiden]

On 5/22/2024 at 2:08 AM, Eiko-chan said:

Every single Patron Arc ends with you tossing Recluse's own mask at his feet that you tore off his corpse in an alternate future where he had just finished defeating the Freedom Phalanx - ie, at the absolute height of his power. He sends you on the Strike Force against the Phalanx because he can't do it himself. Both politically and from the standpoint of power.

 

You absolutely do not end up "just another lackey" of Arachnos in CoV. You end up an independent power that they can't do anything about.

Well... Sure, the highest levels do let one do a lot of epic stuff and be respected for it by the NPCs, but there's quite a lot of leveling to be done before that - you're indeed mostly a lackey/mercenary throughout the first three zones. And I suspect that progression could be turning away some of those who'd be interested in playing a villain, because let's face it, few people would include rising from a lone newbie villain to a world-class (but still one) supervillain in their fantasy. Most, admittedly myself included, would probably rather already start at the desired threat level, without common folks telling them what to do.

[Lunar Ronin]

3 minutes ago, Vic Raiden said:

Well... Sure, the highest levels do let one do a lot of epic stuff and be respected for it by the NPCs, but there's quite a lot of leveling to be done before that - you're indeed mostly a lackey/mercenary throughout the first three zones. And I suspect that progression could be turning away some of those who'd be interested in playing a villain, because let's face it, few people would include rising from a lone newbie villain to a world-class (but still one) supervillain in their fantasy. Most, admittedly myself included, would probably rather already start at the desired threat level, without common folks telling them what to do.

 

You're mostly a sidekick in the first three blue side zones, saving people from purse-snatching Hellions.  What's the difference?

[Eiko-chan]

3 minutes ago, Vic Raiden said:

Well... Sure, the highest levels do let one do a lot of epic stuff and be respected for it by the NPCs, but there's quite a lot of leveling to be done before that - you're indeed mostly a lackey/mercenary throughout the first three zones. And I suspect that progression could be turning away some of those who'd be interested in playing a villain, because let's face it, few people would include rising from a lone newbie villain to a world-class (but still one) supervillain in their fantasy. Most, admittedly myself included, would probably rather already start at the desired threat level, without common folks telling them what to do.

The Paragon devs did try to do something about this with some of the newer arcs, like Dean MacArthur in Sharkhead and Mr. G in Saint Martial. 

[Vic Raiden]

13 minutes ago, Lunar Ronin said:

 

You're mostly a sidekick in the first three blue side zones, saving people from purse-snatching Hellions.  What's the difference?

You got me there. I guess it's just kinda less annoying because you're still doing hero work like you signed up for?

[Vic Raiden]

Okay, sure, blueside toons start small as well... but do you ever feel bossed around, taken advantage of, or otherwise disrespected by blueside contacts?

 

I, personally, don't. Maybe it's just a different mindset, where you're just helping people in need because it's the right thing to do.

[Rudra]

2 hours ago, Vic Raiden said:

Okay, sure, blueside toons start small as well... but do you ever feel bossed around, taken advantage of, or otherwise disrespected by blueside contacts?

 

I, personally, don't. Maybe it's just a different mindset, where you're just helping people in need because it's the right thing to do.

Bossed around blue side? Yes. Taken advantage of? Yes. Disrespected? No. Yes. (I forgot the man in Steel Canyon and the vase.)

 

Edit: It just happens red side routinely as opposed to rarely blue side.

 

Edited May 26 by Rudra
Edited to add everything after "No.".

[Vic Raiden]

Yeah, and the redside routine-ness of that is quite a problem. I get that evil doesn't cooperate well with evil, but come on!

[Worm_Kalpa]

I'm barging in here so some of what I say might have been covered already, but here are some ideas that I have.  The first is about one factor of many that adds to the huge popularity gap between redside and blueside.  The last three are how to get more people to play redside.

 

1) The updated beginning (Galaxy City, continuing tutorial contacts, some of the new contacts) don't work as well in terms of plot and player-appeal for redside as it does for blueside.  I agree with earlier posts that changes to Mercy Island as a result of the updated beginning were an overall downgrade.  The popularity and thus population gap between blueside and redside existed before this, but I would argue that it didn't help redside. 

 

In the updated beginning for heroes, you start in part of Paragon City, deal with a disaster there that is the vanguard of something big and new coming, and then go to another part of Paragon City.   There the new contacts have arcs dealing with how the destruction of Galaxy City affects Atlas park and deal with the fallout there.  It makes narrative sense, you're doing heroic deeds dealing with villains taking advantage of the situation, and there is a sense of urgency.  Even the Twinshot arcs, as annoying as the dialogue and some of the plot points are, build into something that ties into the Praetorian invasion arc and even brings up the meteors in Galaxy City.  I liked the Outbreak tutorial and consider the updated beginning for blueside to be an overall lateral move (needs some changes but it is more exciting). 

 

In the updated beginning for villains, you start in part of Paragon City, deal with a disaster there that is the vanguard of something big and new coming, and then go to the Rogue Isles where the impact of what happened in the tutorial doesn't feel significant.  Your focus is now directed towards something completely different: Longbow taking over part of Mercy Island, which is small stakes compared to the fallout of a new alien invasion.  While Twinshot's arcs treat you like a newbie moron, Dr. Graves' arcs suffer more from treating you like an angry newbie moron.  Dr. Graves' arcs also don't tie into something established (Praetoria, neo-Shivan invasion) and the conclusion of what was possessing Dollface isn't hinted at or followed up anywhere IIRC.  Also, Lt Harris is more of a creep with issues than a serious villain.  In the old beginning for villains, they start in prison, break out with the help of Arachnos, and are given the choice of sticking with them or not.  That's cool, makes narrative sense, and is still exciting.  Plus Dr. Creed is better than Dr. Weber.

 

2) Take plot and character interaction ideas from the newer redside contacts (Dean MacArthur, Leonard, Vincent Ross, especially Mr. G) and also from the 1-20 goldside contacts (mainly Power Loyalists) and make new low-level contacts or maybe even update some of the existing contact dialogue.  The villains get no respect complaint is an old and valid one.  I remember that the initial beta version of the Barracuda SF was pretty bad about that.  But as others have stated, the original devs did work on fixing that with new contacts and arcs.  I recall the second SSA for villains also being pretty good in that area, but it's been awhile.  And as others have said, the conclusion of Operation: DESTINY has you showing that you are stronger than your patron and Recluse and thus deserving their fear and respect (ties to the first point about the old redside beginning being better).  Emphasize that!  I believe the HC redside contacts and arcs are good about treating you as a partner to a scheme rather than a lackey, so the HC devs are on the right track there.

 

3) Have redside content that is on the vigilante-villain area of the alignment chart.  Not just a vigilante only contact in the Rogue Isles but something where most would view you as a villain even if you sincerely believe you are improving things.  This can include arcs where you are trying to do good or fight a group but using extreme means.  The vigilante -> villain alignment mission A Broken Protest Sign is along the lines I'm thinking.  You fight against the Cage Consortium for noble intentions but it means doing some stuff a villain would do and even join in.  Some Crusader Resistance arcs can work for inspiration.  This suggestions is tricky to implement, least of which is that this is meant to be in that murky ambiguous region between alignments.

 

4) Odd idea, but have more arcs along the lines of Captain Petrovich and Slot Machine's second arc for those who want to play a bad guy without actually being a bad guy.  The first has you rescue the widow of Scrapyard, and you help a washed-up villain retire in the second one.  I'm thinking of contacts tied to the Scrapyarders or even some benign faction of the Luddites, where you are working in the Rogue Isles but kind of improving things for people there.  And you can get rich in the process or set yourself up as an important figure, but don't have to.  And of course can betray them at some point.  So instead of working for the Family or Cage Consortium in Sharkhead, you work against them but on your terms with no trickery by the contact.  This does feed into the 'villain vs villain' complaint about redside and that you are a hero that happens to be working in the Rogue Isles is valid criticism.  But I think this can work if presented to the player as exactly that from the get go and done the right way.  Besides, if this works then why not look into blueside arcs where you are a hero but a jerk?

 

 

 

 

[Chris24601]

Personally, I’d like to see the zone limitations removed entirely and some hero contacts added to the Rogue Isles and villain contacts to Paragon City. Set them up with Newspaper and villain tip missions in Paragon too because the idea that the villains all fly back to the Rogue Isles after every bank heist is pretty absurd.

 

Take advantage of the low level Sewer Zone to set up some Villain lairs more like the Resistance has in Praetoria. Flip the conning for Longbow for heroes/vigilantes and put some sort PC accessible  “forward base” options for them.

 

While we’re at it, maybe consider giving a serious revamp to Longbow so the ostensible “good guys” aren’t regularly committing war crimes (beyond the already existing “invading a sovereign country to attempt its subversion and overthrow” bit). Right now they’re practically a joke in the sense of basically coming off more villainous than a lot of the ostensible villains and the Praetoria Police Department (literal fascists) look downright humane compared to Longbow.

 

I mean, maybe Ms. Liberty and Longbow are supposed to be played like the protagonists of the Starship Troopers movie, but that whole thing just rebounds so badly into the Blueside that it’s hard to take any of the big bluesiders as anything but thugs with good publicity… to the point I’d almost like an option to play as an unregistered superhero just for the “not cooperating with corrupt authorities” angle.

 

In lieu of villains being able to hide out in Paragon City, I’d settle for an alternative to Grandville (i.e. Arachnos central) with its heavy focus on outright villainy that makes playing a Rogue in the level 40+ range largely a matter of repeating the Rogue Tip missions and Newspapers until you get tired of them (Hardcase typically marks the last real Rogue-friendly contact in the Redside level-up game). Pretty much everything else after that seems to presume you’re in it “for the evuls” instead of having any sort of standards remaining.

 

I dunno. This is probably just me being rambly. I said my main piece a while back, so this is more just random supplemental thoughts that have come to me since then.

 

ETA: just realized that for the alternate 40+ zone, we already have the one side of Kallisti Wharf if it could ever get populated with mobs and some contacts.

Edited June 3 by Chris24601

[Vic Raiden]

The idea of lifting the zone alignment locks is 100% gonna get you a /rudra, but I personally like it. Could shake things up a little, I suppose.

 

Also, 100% on the Longbow fix. I get that they're supposed to be just unlikable enough for redside players to not feel guilty fighting them, but come on, it's just too corrupt for what's supposed to be the primary large force of good. Right now its job is better done by the Vanguard, you know, an alignment-neutral faction.

[Rudra]

Who? What? ... Not again.... Why can't people summon me at decent times?

[Vic Raiden]

9 hours ago, Chris24601 said:

While we’re at it, maybe consider giving a serious revamp to Longbow so the ostensible “good guys” aren’t regularly committing war crimes (beyond the already existing “invading a sovereign country to attempt its subversion and overthrow” bit). Right now they’re practically a joke in the sense of basically coming off more villainous than a lot of the ostensible villains and the Praetoria Police Department (literal fascists) look downright humane compared to Longbow.

 

I mean, maybe Ms. Liberty and Longbow are supposed to be played like the protagonists of the Starship Troopers movie, but that whole thing just rebounds so badly into the Blueside that it’s hard to take any of the big bluesiders as anything but thugs with good publicity… to the point I’d almost like an option to play as an unregistered superhero just for the “not cooperating with corrupt authorities” angle.

Real talk, an ability to play a hero or vigilante outside of the FBSA and Freedom Corps' bureaucracy chains would be dope.

 

And regarding Longbow itself, like I said, they really need some touch-up. Making them just unsympathetic enough to let redsiders have no remorse fighting them is one thing, but that whole stunt with trying to dismantle the Vanguard really ruins what little heroism they have. And even where they're actually doing proper peacekeeping, it kinda falls flat when you consider Longbow was literally created to hate Arachnos above all else... and that seems to leak into hating the Rogue Isles' denizens as a whole, going by their dialogue (other than random moments of kindness towards civilians in Nerva). I mean, I get humanity is complex, but why can't we have a genuinely well-meaning major force of good in this setting?

 

But I digress and may not even make sense.

[Chris24601]

Yeah, Longbow really got itself Flanderized since it’s introduction and I’d say the RWZ revamp was the start, and the advent of the tip missions (where they invariably show up as extremists looking to kill rather than capture various villains out of some officer’s need for revenge) sealing the deal.

 

It’d be one thing if they were actually sanctioned by some sort legitimate government; but they’re not. Freedom Corps is a private firm and Longbow is Ms. Liberty’s private militia/army… who use miniguns and flamethrowers against civilians and, based tip missions, are little more than vigilantes given cover by their boss being Stateman’s granddaughter… butting into things that are literally police matters with an intent to murder someone.

Per the Praetorian arcs they also cause headaches for Vanguard by trying to invade Praetorian Earth because apparently they never got the memo that it’s not actually “Earth where everyone is Evil so you’re free to murder them.”

 

Frankly, there either needs to be…

 

A) canon acknowledgment that Longbow is off the rails and actually villains with good publicity… preferably with a Ms. Liberty tries to shut them down, but they go rogue (or elsewise stop with Ms. Liberty as basically the face of the game/starter zone trainer and put Back Alley Brawler at the base of the Atlas Park statue). Make them con Yellow in Paragon (in addition to their usual Red in the Isles).

 

B) Give them a total revamp using the powers and FX for the Praetoria Police (and Paragon Police) that are meant to represent non-lethal apprehension devices as a basis. No one would be making jokes about war crimes if they were lobbing electronets instead of grenades, tear gas in place of flame throwers, or using stun beams in place of miniguns. This would also eliminate some of the silliness of high end missions where compared to Vanguard (troops in Imperivium armor with rail guns, energy blades, and outright sorcerers), Arachnos (power armored troops, psychics and mystics) or the IDF (power armor, robots, psychics) you have Longbow still using guys in spandex with miniguns and flamethrowers.

[Worm_Kalpa]

14 hours ago, Chris24601 said:

Personally, I’d like to see the zone limitations removed entirely and some hero contacts added to the Rogue Isles and villain contacts to Paragon City. Set them up with Newspaper and villain tip missions in Paragon too because the idea that the villains all fly back to the Rogue Isles after every bank heist is pretty absurd.

I like the idea of removing zone limitations since the explicit issue is 'how to get more people to play on redside' instead of 'how to get more people to play as villains and/or rogues (and thus, implicitly, playing on redside)'.  I think it's one part of the solution since you also need content and other things to interest people to play on redside.  But having that idea in mind opens up to the idea of adding some hero contacts to the Rogue Isles (and even villain contacts to Paragon City), which I like.  The HC arc that is for rogues but starts blueside is kind of along that same thinking.  Also, the 'Recapture Miss Francine in 90 minutes' from Westin Phipps and the 'Stop the transmission' mission from Marshal Brass have heroic outcomes if you fail them so those also capture the spirit.

 

Again, taking notes on how the goldside 1-20 arcs are done can help here.  Potential redside hero contacts would likely be unassuming or undercover.  There could be different unlock requirements depending on alignment.  For example, I can see even a villain unlocking a redside hero contact if they have the Spider Smasher badge and the contact needs some assurance you aren't an Arachnos lackey.  Although I don't know if a requirement 'if hero with or without badge or villain with badge then unlock' would be tricky to program or require more resources than it is worth.

 

Speaking of resources and programming, I think it would be fine if these hypothetical 'redside hero' arcs were low-level and fairly simple.  I'm thinking along the lines of the revamped Faultline arcs or the Westin Phipps and Marshal Brass missions mentioned earlier.  Maybe some dialogue choice at the end if you betray them, help them out of your benefit, or just help them with no strings but no different badges.  I'm completely fine if a new contact and arc don't have an associated badge or cool design stuff if adding those would mean more work than is needed.

 

A side-note on the subject of revamping zones, but damn some of the Rogue Isles zones need a design update.  The old devs said that revamping zones is as much work as making a new zone, but I'm talking about minor (to my knowledge) edits instead of a full revamp.  I like Cap Au Diable's design since you start off in the 'decent' part of town with rough parts with Vahz hanging out to harvest organs and pipes going everywhere.  You then work your way up to Aeon City and the 'nice' part of town near the university where the Gold Brickers are breaking into the buildings there.  It adds a visual sense of progression as a villain when you are climbing to level 20.  Others have stated that that is what made the old Mercy Island work.  Some redside zones have residential areas with too much trash and debris that it looks post-apocalyptic (new Mercy Island) or they don't emphasize the rich part of the Isles enough (St Martial).  Keep Sharkhead mostly as is since it is supposed to be suffering from Cage's mining runoff, pollution, and exploitation of the Scrapyarders but update the design of the rich parts.  That adds some aesthetic variety that turns off some people from playing redside.

 

 

[Rudra]

8 minutes ago, Worm_Kalpa said:

A side-note on the subject of revamping zones, but damn some of the Rogue Isles zones need a design update.  The old devs said that revamping zones is as much work as making a new zone, but I'm talking about minor (to my knowledge) edits instead of a full revamp.  I like Cap Au Diable's design since you start off in the 'decent' part of town with rough parts with Vahz hanging out to harvest organs and pipes going everywhere.  You then work your way up to Aeon City and the 'nice' part of town near the university where the Gold Brickers are breaking into the buildings there.  It adds a visual sense of progression as a villain when you are climbing to level 20.  Others have stated that that is what made the old Mercy Island work.  Some redside zones have residential areas with too much trash and debris that it looks post-apocalyptic (new Mercy Island) or they don't emphasize the rich part of the Isles enough (St Martial).  Keep Sharkhead mostly as is since it is supposed to be suffering from Cage's mining runoff, pollution, and exploitation of the Scrapyarders but update the design of the rich parts.  That adds some aesthetic variety that turns off some people from playing redside.

If you want to change anything that affects the static parts of the map, such as removing the trash and debris, making the richer parts of the zones look more well off, and so forth, that requires a whole new map to be generated. Even if they copy the existing map and make changes to it, building new models, finding the new breaks in the zone geometry, generating or moving mob spawn points, and making new travel paths for wandering GMs and other mobs if needed is a lot more work than you seem to think.

 

(Edit: I'm not saying I'm against it, just letting you know that like you heard, it is a major undertaking.)

Edited June 3 by Rudra

[Worm_Kalpa]

4 minutes ago, Rudra said:

If you want to change anything that affects the static parts of the map, such as removing the trash and debris, making the richer parts of the zones look more well off, and so forth, that requires a whole new map to be generated. Even if they copy the existing map and make changes to it, building new models, finding the new breaks in the zone geometry, generating or moving mob spawn points, and making new travel paths for wandering GMs and other mobs if needed is a lot more work than you seem to think.

 

(Edit: I'm not saying I'm against it, just letting you know that like you heard, it is a major undertaking.)

That is a lot of work when you get into the details.  Thanks, it is good to keep in mind that seemingly minor or quick changes can require a lot of work

[UltraAlt]

4 hours ago, Worm_Kalpa said:

I like the idea of removing zone limitations since the explicit issue is 'how to get more people to play on redside' instead of 'how to get more people to play as villains and/or rogues (and thus, implicitly, playing on redside)'.

 

I really don't understand what the insistence is in trying to lure players to the dark side.

I think all of us understand that there are far few players that want to play villains than want to play heroes. I agree completely that part of that is based on the low population of players playing villain content.

 

And I do mean "villian".

"red" and "red side" are just terms to try to obfuscate the fact that it is "villain" content.

I'm not buying the "oh, it's just because the background is red" story.

I never did.

"red" is also fewer characters that "villian". "hero" and "blue" have the same number of characters.

 

Players never have to indicate if they are playing hero content because the majority of players are playing hero content.

So, yes, it is understood that villian and Praetorian teams that are recruiting should announce that they are recruiting for villian or Praetorian content.

 

One thing that players acknowledge is that new players have no idea what all the abbreviations mean. They may figure it out over time being exposed to it or have it explained to them, but they aren't going to inherently know what "blue", "red", and "gold" refer to let alone all the abbreviations for task forces, strike forces, trials, events, etc. I mean it isn't like we are playing using 30 baud modems at this point. But then again, there are many that don't want inexperienced players on their teams, so there is that.

 

Unless you add hero content to the villain side, it is still all villain content on the villian side.

 

How about some feedback on how great the "red" content is in Striga Island?

This was an attempt at making Striga a co-op zone. 

How's that working out?

 

If only one villain zone was going to become a co-op zone, which zone should it be and why?

What hero missions and contacts would need to be setup in the zone or would it just be left with villain content that all characters would have access to?

Why would a hero want to break people's legs and destroy property?

 

It's been pretty clear almost from release that "red side is the dead side".

 

None of this is to say that I don't play on the villain side from time to time ... well, very rarely. I don't think I have any characters that are villains, but a good handful for my 100+ characters are rogues.

I mostly run newspaper missions when I play a villian in order to get the mayhem missions. That is to say, the mayhem missions are the most enjoyable villain content as far as I am concerned. 

I did a good bit of PvPing as a villain but PvP is pretty much broken on multiple levels.

[Wavicle]

I've said before, and there were people who just didn't like it, but it's still true:

CoH is not a game of multiple equal and opposing sides.

 

The Rogue Isles and Praetoria are merely alternate levelling paths.

[Vic Raiden]

Maybe it used to be three separate traps... I mean games long ago, but it's no longer the case. No point in acting as if it still was.

 

On 6/3/2024 at 5:24 PM, Chris24601 said:

A) canon acknowledgment that Longbow is off the rails and actually villains with good publicity… preferably with a Ms. Liberty tries to shut them down, but they go rogue (or elsewise stop with Ms. Liberty as basically the face of the game/starter zone trainer and put Back Alley Brawler at the base of the Atlas Park statue). Make them con Yellow in Paragon (in addition to their usual Red in the Isles).

Going back to this, I can half-imagine a new, more genuinely good organization being created to replace Longbow in the event they go rogue.