A possible solution to the kheldian revamp

[Laucianna]

11 hours ago, Captain Fabulous said:

OK, I'm just gonna ask, what the hell is Changeling?

 

Using binds to shift forms so quickly that you can have on average two form powers go off alongside your human form attack, so doing 3 actions in one

[Clam Leader]

16 hours ago, Captain Fabulous said:

OK, I'm just gonna ask, what the hell is Changeling?

For an actual demonstration look at either my or Madvillains videos in Lauciannas guide thread.

[arcane]

17 hours ago, Captain Fabulous said:

OK, I'm just gonna ask, what the hell is Changeling?

An animation skipping exploit

[GM Crumpet]

I have no idea what people mean when they say changeling. Laucianna sent me a video of it in action and I'm still none the wiser. If people use something that makes them happy then go for it. I have my forms bound to keys and swap between them as required. I think personally some people are so caught up in the idea they forget the majority of us who play khelds don't do it and have no idea what to do even if we tried. I feel powerful. In a team I feel OP due to the inherent bonus. I swap forms with gay abandon and use the powers as needed. I'm maybe not as fast as someone above who has the manually dexterity and coordination I lack to click and double click in a rhythm, but I solo +4/4 very happily. 

 

As a GM I often see complaints when something is changed from people who have built their character around a particular power or exploit. I'm sure you saw all the stuff when fire powers were altered and it filtered into fire farming. That was a shock to my system too when I logged into my favourite map and died instantly. But the devs don't do anything out of malice. They make changes to streamline AT's and power sets so they aren't OP compared to others, or worse, underperform with comparable power sets. I am not privy to any of their conversations about khelds so don't know what they think, not do I know enough to contribute properly to that conversation if I was asked. I do know that they will extensively test any changes internally, then throw it out to the closed beta. If that time comes I'll see about getting the leaders of the kheld community access to the closed beta (it's not hard to join) and your voices can be heard.

[arcane]

4 hours ago, GM Crumpet said:

I have no idea what people mean when they say changeling. Laucianna sent me a video of it in action and I'm still none the wiser. If people use something that makes them happy then go for it. I have my forms bound to keys and swap between them as required. I think personally some people are so caught up in the idea they forget the majority of us who play khelds don't do it and have no idea what to do even if we tried. I feel powerful. In a team I feel OP due to the inherent bonus. I swap forms with gay abandon and use the powers as needed. I'm maybe not as fast as someone above who has the manually dexterity and coordination I lack to click and double click in a rhythm, but I solo +4/4 very happily. 

 

As a GM I often see complaints when something is changed from people who have built their character around a particular power or exploit. I'm sure you saw all the stuff when fire powers were altered and it filtered into fire farming. That was a shock to my system too when I logged into my favourite map and died instantly. But the devs don't do anything out of malice. They make changes to streamline AT's and power sets so they aren't OP compared to others, or worse, underperform with comparable power sets. I am not privy to any of their conversations about khelds so don't know what they think, not do I know enough to contribute properly to that conversation if I was asked. I do know that they will extensively test any changes internally, then throw it out to the closed beta. If that time comes I'll see about getting the leaders of the kheld community access to the closed beta (it's not hard to join) and your voices can be heard.

As a GM you should probably know about popular exploits that players are using to achieve otherwise impossible levels of performance. No? This admission strikes me as a tad embarrassing on your part…

 

I want to see problems get fixed and the actual homecoming team is over here saying they don’t have a clue. Discouraging.

Edited January 28 by arcane

[Thraxen]

First I’ve ever heard of this. I’ll have to check video out. If it is switching back and forth a lot I wouldn’t even want to try it. It’s a lot of noise and lights. I love my pb. First toon I made when started playing again just in case it got shut down I’d have a tank or dps. WS I finally made but don’t like it cause of the constant changing. 

[Thraxen]

Well found a video. Seems cool but too annoying for me. My PB is pretty good without having to do all that stuff. 

[GM Crumpet]

7 hours ago, arcane said:

As a GM you should probably know about popular exploits that players are using to achieve otherwise impossible levels of performance. No? This admission strikes me as a tad embarrassing on your part…

 

I want to see problems get fixed and the actual homecoming team is over here saying they don’t have a clue. Discouraging.

Hardly embarrassing. I don't do macros as I find them confusing, and much cleverer people than me have looked at it and said it's fine for now so that's good enough for me. We can't all be good at everything. I'm good at what I do though.

And I didn't say the Homecoming team don't have a clue, please don't put words in my mouth or quote me out of context. I said I didn't have a clue. there is a massive difference.

[Laucianna]

 

7 hours ago, arcane said:

As a GM you should probably know about popular exploits that players are using to achieve otherwise impossible levels of performance. No? This admission strikes me as a tad embarrassing on your part…

 

I want to see problems get fixed and the actual homecoming team is over here saying they don’t have a clue. Discouraging.

 

The homecoming team are well aware of it and have said they will remove it once Kheldians get a re-work so I won't worry too much ❤️ Changeling binds are on their final breathes as it is. All we can do is hope for a positive future for Kheldians without the need of exploits 🙂

 

 - Lauci x

[TheSpiritFox]

I like the macros and shit, honestly. 

 

Just boost the damage a little bit on form attacks and then double Khledian max damage bonus, AT fixed. 

[FlammeFatale]

... or just give them access to epic pools. I believe they are the only AT with no access to these.

[PeacekeeperKara]

The best quality of life change for the Kheldians would be to make their Cosmic Balance/Dark Sustenance mechanic self-contained instead of team reliant. Possibly a three toggle system similar to the Bio Armor Adaption powers or the Staff stances. On a team, I've never once felt like Kheldians underperform and I can +4/+8 all day after 50, but in daily solo play, I spend most of my time +1/+2-+4 because I'm not juiced up by Cosmic Balance. I still like to play solo, but you definitely feel the lack of Cosmic Balance bonuses. I don't know the full details of that mechanic so if it'd significantly take away from the full ability of Cosmic Balance, I'd say look elsewhere, but it seems like a good starting point that wouldn't overpower the ATs that badly. 

 

And besides, who doesn't want more toggles to click?! 

 

On 2/3/2024 at 4:40 PM, FlammeFatale said:

... or just give them access to epic pools. I believe they are the only AT with no access to these.

 

That'd provide so much variety, I'd be down for that. And make them available to forms! Soul Tentacles from a Squid?! Yes please

[Glubba]

On 1/29/2024 at 2:35 AM, arcane said:

As a GM you should probably know about popular exploits that players are using to achieve otherwise impossible levels of performance. No? This admission strikes me as a tad embarrassing on your part…

 

I want to see problems get fixed and the actual homecoming team is over here saying they don’t have a clue. Discouraging.

 

I've been playing this game on and off since its release. Though I am not a skilled player or a theory crafter, I love it. I have only a few level 50 characters but have created over a hundred alts. One of the things I adore about this game is the community's positivity. It's one of the least toxic game communities I've ever encountered. However, one quote in this thread is both unnecessary and rude. "Otherwise impossible levels of performance" is fairly laughable. We're talking about one person perfecting something to use against a stationary target under perfectly ideal conditions. This is not representative of typical gameplay. It has always been my understanding that the purpose of "pylon times" is to push every AT to its absolute limits. I read over in the Dominator thread that the last reported time for their competition was 58 seconds, and it's been beaten four times since that post.

 

I've noticed a lot of what I will politely call "whining" in this thread. I've been playing this game for years, and I've never seen an abundance of Kheldians. It's safe to say that they are the least popular AT. Even among those who play Kheldians, I doubt many know these macros. I've played a Warshade on and off for five years and only learned about them three days ago. Animation canceling has been done and sought after in many games. League of Legends is one example that comes to mind. People animation cancel, auto-attack reset, whatever they can do to make their characters more competitive. 

 

The macro command lines seem to work as intended, and it makes sense to me thematically. If they are masters of their forms, it makes sense that they could use their forms and abilities to their maximum potential. After discovering them, it took me a while to figure out how to use these macros correctly. It's not easy to do, despite how some people make it seem. Also, in most content, it's not practical. Most of the time, while playing as a Warshade, I teleport in, mire, eclipse, mire, and then jump back out to AOE in squid form. I only use these macros when fighting a target like an EB or AV. I enjoy the fast-paced gameplay; it fits with the rest of the "razer's edge" Warshade playstyle and is fun. 

 

If the developers want to remove this ability, they have the right to do so; it is their game. However, we should not be toxic to others just because we don't like what they're saying or how they're playing. This ability is not game-breaking, as there hasn't been a rash of new Warshades or Peacebringers. I rarely see other Warshades or Peacebringers while playing mine or any other toon for that matter.

 

All in all, we need to be good to each other, and I hope you all have a wonderful day. :)

Edited February 23 by Glubba

[Laucianna]

3 hours ago, Glubba said:

 

I've been playing this game on and off since its release. Though I am not a skilled player or a theory crafter, I love it. I have only a few level 50 characters but have created over a hundred alts. One of the things I adore about this game is the community's positivity. It's one of the least toxic game communities I've ever encountered. However, one quote in this thread is both unnecessary and rude. "Otherwise impossible levels of performance" is fairly laughable. We're talking about one person perfecting something to use against a stationary target under perfectly ideal conditions. This is not representative of typical gameplay. It has always been my understanding that the purpose of "pylon times" is to push every AT to its absolute limits. I read over in the Dominator thread that the last reported time for their competition was 58 seconds, and it's been beaten four times since that post.

 

I've noticed a lot of what I will politely call "whining" in this thread. I've been playing this game for years, and I've never seen an abundance of Kheldians. It's safe to say that they are the least popular AT. Even among those who play Kheldians, I doubt many know these macros. I've played a Warshade on and off for five years and only learned about them three days ago. Animation canceling has been done and sought after in many games. League of Legends is one example that comes to mind. People animation cancel, auto-attack reset, whatever they can do to make their characters more competitive. 

 

The macro command lines seem to work as intended, and it makes sense to me thematically. If they are masters of their forms, it makes sense that they could use their forms and abilities to their maximum potential. After discovering them, it took me a while to figure out how to use these macros correctly. It's not easy to do, despite how some people make it seem. Also, in most content, it's not practical. Most of the time, while playing as a Warshade, I teleport in, mire, eclipse, mire, and then jump back out to AOE in squid form. I only use these macros when fighting a target like an EB or AV. I enjoy the fast-paced gameplay; it fits with the rest of the "razer's edge" Warshade playstyle and is fun. 

 

If the developers want to remove this ability, they have the right to do so; it is their game. However, we should not be toxic to others just because we don't like what they're saying or how they're playing. This ability is not game-breaking, as there hasn't been a rash of new Warshades or Peacebringers. I rarely see other Warshades or Peacebringers while playing mine or any other toon for that matter.

 

All in all, we need to be good to each other, and I hope you all have a wonderful day. 🙂

Preach it hun! If you compare the current Pylon times on the link below, even with Moogs amazing time it has nothing on something like a controller, because yeah Pylon times are not the same as real combat. The Devs know it's not a bug that makes Kheldians OP but they've said they still want to remove it and give Kheldians the love they deserve and I for one look forward to the that day ❤️ 

[Koopak]

ill caution that people often overestimate how different a pylon is from real gameplay. Builds that can do good pylon times often have more than sufficient AoE to clear sub EB targets, and the exceptional single target potential is directly applicable to EBs and AVs

I say this because the argument is often used to completely disregard pylon testing when a more nuanced approach is to recognize that pylon speeds directly translate to the part of missions that often take the longest or in rare situations form actual barriers for a team. To use a racing analogy iv heard, saying your drag race time is useless is inaccurate, every track has a straight away. And when you take that straight away three times faster than anyone else, well that makes up for a lot of slower curves.

Edited February 24 by Koopak

[Glubba]

7 hours ago, Koopak said:

ill caution that people often overestimate how different a pylon is from real gameplay. Builds that can do good pylon times often have more than sufficient AoE to clear sub EB targets, and the exceptional single target potential is directly applicable to EBs and AVs

I say this because the argument is often used to completely disregard pylon testing when a more nuanced approach is to recognize that pylon speeds directly translate to the part of missions that often take the longest or in rare situations form actual barriers for a team. To use a racing analogy iv heard, saying your drag race time is useless is inaccurate, every track as a straight away. And when you take that straight away three times faster than anyone else, well that makes up for a lot of slower curves.

That's a fair point, and one I didn't really consider haha.  I did say my understanding of it was limited! xD

[FlammeFatale]

13 hours ago, Koopak said:

ill caution that people often overestimate how different a pylon is from real gameplay. Builds that can do good pylon times often have more than sufficient AoE to clear sub EB targets, and the exceptional single target potential is directly applicable to EBs and AVs

I say this because the argument is often used to completely disregard pylon testing 

 

There is a difference between "completely disregarding", and noticing that they are not representative of performance in actual gameplay. Single-target damage is important against AVs, as you said. In this case, pylon times can give an indication of performance.

But AV fighting is again only a very small part of the game. 95% of the game is fighting groups of enemies.

 

In my opinion, to evaluate a build, it is more important to see how it performs solo against various types of enemies and missions. How does it handle 3 waves of +4/8 arachnos ambushers? 3 waves of the new CoT? Mob spread out is some missions, so that they cannot be AoEd? 2 groups so close you cannot avoid fighting both at the same time? 4 simultaneous new tarentula mistresses with my poor poison controller (confuse immunity)? With my poor Dark dominator (confuse AND fear immunity)?

 

Under those stress-tests, I found that the most important was, in this order:

 

1. Survivability 

   This means defense (with positional being king), resistance, controls, debuffs, heals...

 

2. AoE damage

 

3. ST damage

 

ST damage is only third, unless you want to specialize in soloing AVs. But then you would not roll a warshade and probably not a PB either.

 

I think one of the good things about pylon testing is that it is standardized. It is good for comparing attack powers and rotations for a given AT. It is impossible to standardize my method of testing builds. I can only use it to compare my own characters, not to compare them to other players. But who cares how other players perform? I don't. This is not a competitive game. 

 

[Clam Leader]

9 hours ago, FlammeFatale said:

 

There is a difference between "completely disregarding", and noticing that they are not representative of performance in actual gameplay. Single-target damage is important against AVs, as you said. In this case, pylon times can give an indication of performance.

But AV fighting is again only a very small part of the game. 95% of the game is fighting groups of enemies.

 

In my opinion, to evaluate a build, it is more important to see how it performs solo against various types of enemies and missions. How does it handle 3 waves of +4/8 arachnos ambushers? 3 waves of the new CoT? Mob spread out is some missions, so that they cannot be AoEd? 2 groups so close you cannot avoid fighting both at the same time? 4 simultaneous new tarentula mistresses with my poor poison controller (confuse immunity)? With my poor Dark dominator (confuse AND fear immunity)?

 

Under those stress-tests, I found that the most important was, in this order:

 

1. Survivability 

   This means defense (with positional being king), resistance, controls, debuffs, heals...

 

2. AoE damage

 

3. ST damage

 

ST damage is only third, unless you want to specialize in soloing AVs. But then you would not roll a warshade and probably not a PB either.

 

I think one of the good things about pylon testing is that it is standardized. It is good for comparing attack powers and rotations for a given AT. It is impossible to standardize my method of testing builds. I can only use it to compare my own characters, not to compare them to other players. But who cares how other players perform? I don't. This is not a competitive game. 

 

 

I disagree fundamentally. 95% of the game may be groups of mobs. But 95% of that barely matters. And every point of survivability you dont need is wasted build resources. Damage is one of the hardest things to increase from outside sources, and what sources do exist will boost an optomized build even further, and the only bottleneck to quick completion of content.

[FlammeFatale]

29 minutes ago, Clam Leader said:

And every point of survivability you dont need is wasted build resources.

 

Well, by definition, if you don't need it, it is wasted.  But in my experience, you need quite a lot against certain enemy groups at max difficulty. When you faceplant, you deal 0 damage.

 

Also, I am not sure we are talking about the same thing. You mention increasing damage "from outside sources". What are these outside sources? 

When I test a build, I test it solo.  I don't get buffs from team mates or a buffbot. Are you talking instead  about inspirations in the mail? Power amplifiers? I do not use any of these.

 

Same with "quick completion of content". I am not aiming for quick completion of some content. I am aiming for completion, not necessarily quick, of all content.

[Clam Leader]

36 minutes ago, FlammeFatale said:

 

Well, by definition, if you don't need it, it is wasted.  But in my experience, you need quite a lot against certain enemy groups at max difficulty. When you faceplant, you deal 0 damage.

 

Also, I am not sure we are talking about the same thing. You mention increasing damage "from outside sources". What are these outside sources? 

When I test a build, I test it solo.  I don't get buffs from team mates or a buffbot. Are you talking instead  about inspirations in the mail? Power amplifiers? I do not use any of these.

 

Same with "quick completion of content". I am not aiming for quick completion of some content. I am aiming for completion, not necessarily quick, of all content.

I don't build for a vacuum. I test things solo, sure. But I'm not a hardcore solo player, I specifically focus on general group functionality. Which comes with assumptions that I don't need to tank everything, and that I will be getting some outside survival buffs. But more importantly, failure just isn't a possibility. I don't need to build to avoid failure because the conditions I play in success is assumed. Therefore I focus on achieving that success either more quickly or more smoothly.

[Koopak]

I'll also note PBs can easily solo +4 AVs. Additionally damage is a survival tool. It's great you have a personal standard but that can't be used proscriptively. I care how other people perform because when I'm asked 'what's best', 'how do I build x', or any other build or gameplay question i intend to answer accurately and not based on personal anecdote.

 

To that effect there is a new log parser in development that can prove or disprove the translatability of pylon dps to 'normal' gameplay. I won't name drop the dev in a public forum till they are ready to share but the results of testing are showing a high correlation so far.

Edited February 24 by Koopak

[FlammeFatale]

I am sorry Koopak, but results from a "log parser in development" by someone "that you cannot name", are not even anecdotal.

 

Also, I just checked the pylon testing rules. First post in the thread:  "External survivability buffs can be used, but only if explicitly stated and can ONLY affect survivability or mez resistance". I think this summarizes my point. You can do great on pylons if you forego survivability and mez resistance. I am not sure this is good advice for general game play though.

 

[Doomrider]

5 hours ago, FlammeFatale said:

I am sorry Koopak, but results from a "log parser in development" by someone "that you cannot name", are not even anecdotal.

 

Also, I just checked the pylon testing rules. First post in the thread:  "External survivability buffs can be used, but only if explicitly stated and can ONLY affect survivability or mez resistance". I think this summarizes my point. You can do great on pylons if you forego survivability and mez resistance. I am not sure this is good advice for general game play though.

 

You can have your cake and eat it too though. Strong ST damage, strong aoe dmg and still have sufficient survivability to take on the hardest factions on max difficulty.
Also the whole "external survivability buffs can be used" line doesn't really apply to Pylon testing anymore since the most recent patch. All testing is now done one the pylons just outside the Vanguard base and they don't attack the player.

Yes some people make builds specifically to push their AT to the bleeding edge of dps for bragging rights, sometimes to the determent of their damage mitigation but I don't think that's what being discussed here and certainly isn't the golden rule.
You CAN still build very strong ST dps into your build without gimping yourself for regular content but this idea that you should put ST damage output at the bottom of the priority list is sending the wrong message. I regularly see people taking builds that are well balanced and sacrificing single target damage output to stuff them full of defense bonuses, even on AT's with no defense debuff resistance.

Plus, the faster you clear enemies = the less damage mitigation you generally need. And as far as defense goes, sure Positionals might be king but *checks AT subforum* 
building for too much defense can come at a heavy cost for the AT's discussed within this subforum, and any others who don't have DDR.
If I need some defense to surive the alpha strike I can just use purple insipirations, and I don't need to sacrifice power budget to do that.
 

[Koopak]

7 hours ago, FlammeFatale said:

I am sorry Koopak, but results from a "log parser in development" by someone "that you cannot name", are not even anecdotal.

 

Correct, I was simply teasing some things I'm looking forward to.

 

7 hours ago, FlammeFatale said:

Also, I just checked the pylon testing rules. First post in the thread:  "External survivability buffs can be used, but only if explicitly stated and can ONLY affect survivability or mez resistance". I think this summarizes my point. You can do great on pylons if you forego survivability and mez resistance. I am not sure this is good advice for general game play though.

 

I wasn't aware that a blasters job was to tank a pylon.

 

Yes it IS possible to gimp your AT by over focusing on damage. However this is exactly what I mean by the dismissal. Many people just ASSUME that pylon times are all hyper specialized. In reality aside from the top one or two times currently on the sheet, they are all builds able to be used normally and even then since they are damage ATs an argument can be made it's fine to run them in teams.

 

There is a constant problem with people over building durability and under building damage. Just recently the player with the first build pinned in one of the at discord channels needed help changing their build to solo Kronos Titan in LRSF on +4x8 in less than 2 hours. My build which is the top pylon time for the AT does it in only 6 minutes, while tanking it. Their problem was the lack of a ST rotation and an over focus on durability. They were BARELY out dpsing the AVs Regen.

 

This is an example of the problem with this dismissal of ST damage. I almost never see a build get stuck or take hours longer because it lacks AoE outside extreme solo runs through old content where fighting 500 packs of mobs was considered good game design. I see it all the time because of lack of ST damage and, as you said, durability.

Edited February 25 by Koopak

[Laucianna]

Feel like maybe the point is diverting from the Original post 😅