The Badass Empath Guide

[MonteCarla]

Thanks for the feedback, Frozen Burn.

 

You and Moonsheep have opened my eyes to a different regime of playing Empaths from what I do - where you're playing content hard enough to need to focus on an aggro-magnet and keep them upright, at which point Absorb Pain becomes much better.

 

I tend to dabble around in levelling task forces at +2, where the tank (if there even is one) is pretty self-sufficient, and I see my job as keeping the squishier teammates alive and boosted. That and attacking. That last one is a big deal to me, as I definitely play the Offender school of Defenders. I will never not attack and draw some aggro.

 

I'll go amend the original guide around Absorb Pain now.

[Doomguide2005]

     @Frozen Burn

     I definitely appreciate the further input on AP.  I can also see the great potential utility in a second ranged heal.  But the key for me is ranged.  I'm still fairly unconvinced that either HO fired in succession or HO/HA spammed will be be less effective than using AP.  I've very rarely thought the difference would mean my target has fallen with HO while would have survived if I used AP instead.  I don't truly need them, the target, at full health they are basically as effective at 50 health as 1000 or 3000 I just need them upright.  Of course that's target singular not targets.   Sometimes HO buys enough breathing time for them to hit an inspire or Dull Pain or even the relief/confidence to throw out a taunt as they know I've got them covered.  As far as time spent getting to range of HA two thoughts >> chances are if it's the main aggro center chances are extremely good I'm already there, no movement needed.  Second while using Evasive Maneuvers with additional +fly spd (swift, set bonuses) I'll cover pretty much any indoor and most outdoor maps very quickly at HO or AP distances and stop on a dime (no worries that I'll glide or stop out of range).  

     Think the other factor here that plays into things is the whole i can't get healed, the heal debuff around AP.  First this is potentially very old school thinking.  My late game Empaths, in particular, have far more defense than the SO builds of old.  I am far more likely to avoid getting hit and damaged especially fatally in the 20 seconds the debuff lasts than back when SOs and HOs were the top of the line.  If I have that much aggro that I end up eating floor anyway chances are pretty good the combat has already gone towards team wipe rather strongly and the main aggro center is already dead before I can do anything else. 

     And now I'm wondering if Incandescence and it's  heal resistance debuff (unresistable) will break through AP's debuff enough so I can in fact get healed and RegenAura will effect me.  Or if I'm totally misreading or misinterpreting the CoD and in game info.  I've been very reluctant to delve into it much in game because of the Teleport aspect as generally porting folks around while they're alive goes into iffy territory without binds etc. which I have not set up.

[Frozen Burn]

1 hour ago, Doomguide2005 said:

     I definitely appreciate the further input on AP.  I can also see the great potential utility in a second ranged heal.  But the key for me is ranged.  I'm still fairly unconvinced that either HO fired in succession or HO/HA spammed will be be less effective than using AP.  I've very rarely thought the difference would mean my target has fallen with HO while would have survived if I used AP instead.  I don't truly need them, the target, at full health they are basically as effective at 50 health as 1000 or 3000 I just need them upright.  Of course that's target singular not targets.   Sometimes HO buys enough breathing time for them to hit an inspire or Dull Pain or even the relief/confidence to throw out a taunt as they know I've got them covered.  As far as time spent getting to range of HA two thoughts >> chances are if it's the main aggro center chances are extremely good I'm already there, no movement needed.  Second while using Evasive Maneuvers with additional +fly spd (swift, set bonuses) I'll cover pretty much any indoor and most outdoor maps very quickly at HO or AP distances and stop on a dime (no worries that I'll glide or stop out of range).  

 

It's about the volume of incoming damage - and yes, your teammates reaction to using inspires, to some degree.  AP is situational... you certainly don't go replacing HO with it.  But there are many times teams over aggro and HA & HO just aren't gonna cut it.  Most people do not get max recharge on their builds, so there will be a 1-2s wait for HO to recharge - a LOT can happen in that time and having AP there can make the difference between team wipe and not.  It's a Godsend and priceless, in my book.  But I alos like running very difficult and challenging content.

 

And if you're only keeping teammates at 50% health - and then you get ambushed again - or that crazy blaster throws a fireball into a neighboring mob (whether on purpose or accidentally - we've all seen it!  😄)... your two heals alone aren't gonna be enough.  I've experienced that WAY too often, and that's why I will always put AP in my build.

 

Regarding teammates and inspires... I have found most people refuse to use inspires - mostly, people think it's a sign of weakness.  Which it is not.  And then when an Emp is on the team - they think even less of using inspires because "my Empath will save me!"  This is horrible thinking, we all know it, but yet it still happens.  So, as an Empath, to rely on your teammates to use inspires to allow you to heal less than your potential... doesn't seem to fit into a "Badass Empath" guide.  Yes, it's a viable way to go about things, but that is until the incoming damage is too much for you to heal with only your two heals.  

 

 

1 hour ago, Doomguide2005 said:

     Think the other factor here that plays into things is the whole i can't get healed, the heal debuff around AP.  First this is potentially very old school thinking.  My late game Empaths, in particular, have far more defense than the SO builds of old.  I am far more likely to avoid getting hit and damaged especially fatally in the 20 seconds the debuff lasts than back when SOs and HOs were the top of the line.  If I have that much aggro that I end up eating floor anyway chances are pretty good the combat has already gone towards team wipe rather strongly and the main aggro center is already dead before I can do anything else. 

 

Giving up something to give something - it's not "Old School" - it's classic, historical, found in mythology, and is all over our comic books.  It's also a perfect ability to for an "Empath" to absorb ones pain to greatly heal someone else while at personal risk.  And yes, you are right... at upper levels and when incarnate, most have enough defenses to get through the 20s debuff period.  ...Plus, you have purple and orange inspires too!  🙂  ...all reasons why AP and the debuff is not an issue.  So, why not take it and use it?

 

Also, generally, if you're in the sh*t, you're not attacking... you should be healing and should have little to no aggro.  But yes, if you do have lots of aggro, then something is amiss and you better inspire up anyway.  So again, AP debuff doesn't affect you that much.

 

If it's not your thing, no worries.  If it's something you do not need with your gameplay, that's great.  But again, for a "Badass Empath Guide," I think some love on how AP can work is valuable.  🙂  

[Frozen Burn]

6 hours ago, MonteCarla said:

Thanks for the feedback, Frozen Burn.

 

You and Moonsheep have opened my eyes to a different regime of playing Empaths from what I do - where you're playing content hard enough to need to focus on an aggro-magnet and keep them upright, at which point Absorb Pain becomes much better.

 

I tend to dabble around in levelling task forces at +2, where the tank (if there even is one) is pretty self-sufficient, and I see my job as keeping the squishier teammates alive and boosted. That and attacking. That last one is a big deal to me, as I definitely play the Offender school of Defenders. I will never not attack and draw some aggro.

 

I'll go amend the original guide around Absorb Pain now.

 

I run with all sorts.  Yes, I do gravitate towards harder content and that is where AP really does help out.  But I will also run my Emps through casual gameplay and I never need to touch AP.  But it's great for the times when I do need it.  

 

I too like playing Offenders.  🙂  I have 2 Emps that I play frequently.   One is pure support with very few attacks and half are unslotted (teaming only).  The other is an Offender and I attack regularly with it and sometimes pull aggro.  But I still have and use AP when needed - again, it's situational but priceless for when you need it.  And I even use this Emp on harder content as well (I tend to end up Emp'ing often for those 4-star Aeons.  lol).  

[Doomguide2005]

 

5 hours ago, Frozen Burn said:

And if you're only keeping teammates at 50% health - and then you get ambushed again - or that crazy blaster throws a fireball into a neighboring mob (whether on purpose or accidentally - we've all seen it!  😄)... your two heals alone aren't gonna be enough.  I've experienced that WAY too often, and that's why I will always put AP in my build.

No, to be clear I am not keeping teammates at 50% or less health.  What I'm saying is it doesn't matter if I (made up numbers) heal them from 200 health to 500 or 700 with HA or HO or from 200 to 1200 with AP with a single use of the power in question.  Either way they are still up right and in the fight.  It doesn't matter as long as they get back to essentially full health without dying.

5 hours ago, Frozen Burn said:

Regarding teammates and inspires... I have found most people refuse to use inspires - mostly, people think it's a sign of weakness.  Which it is not.  And then when an Emp is on the team - they think even less of using inspires because "my Empath will save me!"  This is horrible thinking, we all know it, but yet it still happens.  So, as an Empath, to rely on your teammates to use inspires to allow you to heal less than your potential... doesn't seem to fit into a "Badass Empath" guide.  Yes, it's a viable way to go about things, but that is until the incoming damage is too much for you to heal with only your two heals.  

Again definitely not quite what I'm getting at though that last line does point at what I was getting at when I said I've never seen someone die where I know they would have lived if I had used AP instead.  Either they survive after that initial burst of healing or they/I get overwhelmed and they don't.  And from there more healing and or the effects of RegenAura and or Adrenaline Boost get them back to full health.  But really I don't think there's any way to know especially in the heat of the moment.

5 hours ago, Frozen Burn said:

Giving up something to give something - it's not "Old School" - it's classic, historical, found in mythology, and is all over our comic books.  It's also a perfect ability to for an "Empath" to absorb ones pain to greatly heal someone else while at personal risk.  And yes, you are right... at upper levels and when incarnate, most have enough defenses to get through the 20s debuff period.  ...Plus, you have purple and orange inspires too!  🙂  ...all reasons why AP and the debuff is not an issue.  So, why not take it and use it?

By old school I meant that back on Live up to when computer issues kept me from playing around i22 and starting here on HC my builds were very strongly focused on recharge.  Reyna on Live had maybe a few percentage points of defense therefore if she found herself unable to heal for 20 seconds the idea she could ride it out would be a much greater stretch than my builds of today.  Now she has defenses even if the focus is still largely on recharge.  And given she would very definitely be in the middle of it due to her offender play style crossed with her blast set being unable to heal for 20 seconds would be suicidal.

5 hours ago, Frozen Burn said:

Also, generally, if you're in the sh*t, you're not attacking... you should be healing and should have little to no aggro.  But yes, if you do have lots of aggro, then something is amiss and you better inspire up anyway.  So again, AP debuff doesn't affect you that much.

Well ... no.  Reyna (/Rad blast) or Neuroststic (/Elec blast) are often right in the middle of the sh*t storm adjacent to the melee types as that's where SC and Irradiate get used while eyeballing the team window for buffs and healing.  The idea that OG+Irradiate+Atomic Blast is likely to yield zero aggro is only happening with some decent aggro management by the Tanker or Brute.  And no an offender Empath with those blast sets in particular is not sitting there just healing and drawing no aggro in the middle of all that while the team is at full health.  So yes I'm going to use whatever tools I've got be it inspires, stun grenades, OG or the kitchen sink (Eye of Magus) to survive and when necessary blot out the storm and focus on keeping teammates buffed and healed despite what's occurring around me.  Reyna can take on a couple bosses and expect them to get defeated >> OG+Cosmic Burst+AirSup+Irradiate+AirSup+CB+AirSup etc.. until downed.  Stunned and knocked till defeated.  And these days she'll often mix in p2w Stun Grenades, Soul Drain and the occasional Envenomed Dagger and her Atomic Blast which combines with a proc in AirSup to hold the occasional boss

5 hours ago, Frozen Burn said:

If it's not your thing, no worries.  If it's something you do not need with your gameplay, that's great.  But again, for a "Badass Empath Guide," I think some love on how AP can work is valuable.  🙂  

Now that sentiment i can get behind 100%.  AP is at least worth checking out by this offender and see how IOs and p2w have altered things

[Frozen Burn]

3 hours ago, Doomguide2005 said:

 

.... And given she would very definitely be in the middle of it due to her offender play style crossed with her blast set being unable to heal for 20 seconds would be suicidal.

 

This is not necessarily true... and I know /Rad very well as an Empath Offender.  But even with other blast sets, it's still not true.  I continually use AP while in the middle of a mob and attacking, and without dying.  Is it risky, sure, but it is completely doable and you can be successful at it.  I do it all the time with mine - even my pure support Empath will be in the middle to use what few attacks she has and still survive using AP.  The debuff is just f'ing with your mind... concentrate and overcome your fears young padawan... fear leads to the dark side...  😄   

 

3 hours ago, Doomguide2005 said:

Well ... no.  Reyna (/Rad blast) or Neuroststic (/Elec blast) are often right in the middle of the sh*t storm adjacent to the melee types as that's where SC and Irradiate get used while eyeballing the team window for buffs and healing.  The idea that OG+Irradiate+Atomic Blast is likely to yield zero aggro is only happening with some decent aggro management by the Tanker or Brute.  And no an offender Empath with those blast sets in particular is not sitting there just healing and drawing no aggro in the middle of all that while the team is at full health.  So yes I'm going to use whatever tools I've got be it inspires, stun grenades, OG or the kitchen sink (Eye of Magus) to survive and when necessary blot out the storm and focus on keeping teammates buffed and healed despite what's occurring around me.  Reyna can take on a couple bosses and expect them to get defeated >> OG+Cosmic Burst+AirSup+Irradiate+AirSup+CB+AirSup etc.. until downed.  Stunned and knocked till defeated.  And these days she'll often mix in p2w Stun Grenades, Soul Drain and the occasional Envenomed Dagger and her Atomic Blast which combines with a proc in AirSup to hold the occasional boss

Now that sentiment i can get behind 100%.  AP is at least worth checking out by this offender and see how IOs and p2w have altered things

 

My point / meaning of "when you're in the sh*t" is that your teammates are taking a crap ton of damage and you have to switch from offending to defending.  There is a point where you can either keep using your damage powers (which are lower on the scale from other ATs) vs. keeping your aggro magnets, damage dealers, and even other support teammates up and alive.  If you keep on "offending" while your teammates are dying - that's a pretty dumb move.  And it is these times when you do make that switch, when AP comes in handy.

 

And yes, your teammates don't have to be at full health all the time, as long as they are up and you are healing more than the incoming damage - you're good.  And yes, you can throw in attacks here and there as long as you are maintaining.  But you also have to be situationally aware and ready to stop attacking completely and let the damage dealers do their job while you do yours of keeping them alive.   

 

I have no doubt we are on the same page here on tactics and how we keep people alive in fights and I am certain you do really well at healing without AP.  👍  I am only suggesting techniques and methods of using AP without having to worry about the debuff it gives.  Again, if it's not for you - that's okay.  🙂  

 

[Chronicler J]

On 1/30/2024 at 1:41 PM, MoonSheep said:

i think thesedays nature is the new empathy, it seems more viable for end stage content and has buffs that work better in the modern era

 

Hello. Someone that has done ample "end game" content here. Not even close. What does Nature do after it uses Regrowth when Tank has pressure, and all of your buffs are out? This assuming the Tank isn't a wet paper sack (plenty of Tankers can't take an actual hit when streakbreaker/debuffs set in.) Empathy, and to a much lesser extent Pain, can cycle AP/HO without the need to waste resources. It also has stable single target Regeneration in AB, and can be stacked with RA assuming Tank is good and keeps pressure. If the Tank has any form of Regeneration Resistance (imagine taking Ageless Radial in this day and age) that will saturate the time between cycling AP/HO, and will also hard float in the event you have to Triage. This is all assuming the Nature is allowed to maintain proximity based on the situation. I can happily just fly out of range of everything and continuously provide strong ST healing to the Tank. 

 

Also, I wish more people would actually play Nature. Too many lazy Healing Aura/Soft Cap/Fighting Pool clowns pick up the set and play like trash. No CM rotation, no Fort rotation, skipping Absorb Pain, skipping Adrenaline Boost; the marks of nearly every PuG/Roleplayer Empath. Hell, I've played with some that have skipped CM, for god's sake. Nature is thankfully a lazy set that encourages you to spam Regrowth and blow your massive PBAOE load. Bonus points if you beg with "Gather for X." I'm not even saying that to be discouraging. The lazier the set, the more reliably I can assume my teammate is going to take advantage of their tools.

 

Nice guide, but it lacks experience behind the wheel. I'd get your hours up in more difficult content, then maybe do a rewrite. 

[Chronicler J]

On 2/18/2024 at 12:34 AM, Frozen Burn said:

AP is situational... 

 

Nah. I'll Triage with it happily. 

[MoonSheep]

6 minutes ago, Chronicler J said:

 

Hello. Someone that has done ample "end game" content here. Not even close. What does Nature do after it uses Regrowth when Tank has pressure, and all of your buffs are out? This assuming the Tank isn't a wet paper sack (plenty of Tankers can't take an actual hit when streakbreaker/debuffs set in.) Empathy, and to a much lesser extent Pain, can cycle AP/HO without the need to waste resources. It also has stable single target Regeneration in AB, and can be stacked with RA assuming Tank is good and keeps pressure. If the Tank has any form of Regeneration Resistance (imagine taking Ageless Radial in this day and age) that will saturate the time between cycling AP/HO, and will also hard float in the event you have to Triage. This is all assuming the Nature is allowed to maintain proximity based on the situation. I can happily just fly out of range of everything and continuously provide strong ST healing to the Tank. 

 

Also, I wish more people would actually play Nature. Too many lazy Healing Aura/Soft Cap/Fighting Pool clowns pick up the set and play like trash. No CM rotation, no Fort rotation, skipping Absorb Pain, skipping Adrenaline Boost; the marks of nearly every PuG/Roleplayer Empath. Hell, I've played with some that have skipped CM, for god's sake. Nature is thankfully a lazy set that encourages you to spam Regrowth and blow your massive PBAOE load. Bonus points if you beg with "Gather for X." I'm not even saying that to be discouraging. The lazier the set, the more reliably I can assume my teammate is going to take advantage of their tools.

 

i can’t disagree with anything you’ve put here. a well played “pvp style” empath is hugely valuable on HM content. a good empath is just so rare 

[Chronicler J]

On 2/18/2024 at 10:57 AM, Frozen Burn said:

 

I am certain you do really well at healing without AP. 

 

 

Thankfully I don't have to deal with this, but I get why people are scared to take it. It's mainly funny to me. 

[Chronicler J]

1 minute ago, MoonSheep said:

 

i can’t disagree with anything you’ve put here. a well played “pvp style” empath is hugely valuable on HM content. a good empath is just so rare 

HM/Advanced Mode is what I would call "Moderate" or "Mild" content. After Aeon they never turned the spice back up. I still have to use the AE to get the really juicy content. 

[Frozen Burn]

7 hours ago, Chronicler J said:

 

Nah. I'll Triage with it happily. 

 

7 hours ago, Chronicler J said:

 

Thankfully I don't have to deal with this, but I get why people are scared to take it. It's mainly funny to me. 

 

I completely agree on both accounts.  I use AP freely and with no issue.  But apparently, as you can see, many people have issue with it.  Oh well.  🙂  

[Doomguide2005]

     As stated I'm not afraid of using AP.   I'd use it but the content in most of the game doesn't seem to require it so why subject myself to its debuffs.  If my ally is dying while Fortitude, Clear Mind, RegenAura and perhaps Adrenaline Boost are running while I use HO/HA on them I'm more prone to think they are going to die anyway or the team needs to rethink its notoriety settings (or both) than AP and they'd be standing, HO and they wouldn't be.  I'm also not afraid to say maybe I'm wrong about that let's work up a build including (and using 😜) AP and see what happens.  I've also got about 4 runs in ☆ mode (1 Aeon duo and 3 8-man ITF) none of which were at 3 or 4☆ and were not run on one of my Empaths but mostly my t4'd scrapper so my experience in Hardmode content or PvP is certainly not a place to speak with knowledge about APs value in such content.  I'd also say there's more than a few 'shiny' characters and sets out there so getting that actual build and time in might be awhile 😁.

[euNoir]

On 1/28/2024 at 8:31 AM, Doomguide2005 said:

     What @MonteCarlasaid.  You gain almost no benefit for either you or your teammate over target ally > hit follow > use HO > zip over to ally and hit HA.  If that isn't enough your there to add your blasts targeting through them and HO is ready to go again (or drop Fort or CM).  The number of times an ally survives with AP and wouldn't with HO/HA are almost non existent.  Usually it's they survive with either or die with either process.  And with the second you stand an excellent chance of following them to face plant.

 

 

I built an Emp defender on live sometime around i6; I died only if I let my team die first, and I always used AP when I needed to - best and biggest heal. Like most people I thought it lacklustre at first and then I started to really delve into what makes empath great and how to leverage that and grow beyond the basics (I had some amazing help too!). The amount of HP you lose from AP is negligible, frankly, and if you take any more damage after that you're doing something wrong.

It is of course - at best - a clutch heal but it's supposed to be and using it that way, I saved so many tanks running all the buffs and all the resistances/defence boosts under the sun in all the content, including Hamidon on live, LRTF back when that was hard etc. It's a great power if you use it well, and it always has been. I exemplar'd a lot too, so I can attest that it worked well at all levels. The trick was managing your position and using utility powers effectively; note that I would do this while keeping the party within range of my auras so there was actual theoretical risk.

  

On 1/28/2024 at 8:31 AM, Doomguide2005 said:

    I'm also in @Nemu's court when it comes to CM.  I think it's under used and under rated even in endgame.  That said it is easier to find yourself on a team where it is considerably less useful while dealing with incarnates between Clarion, Barrier and general high defense and resists of teammates vs your typical PuG running Synapse,Yin or Citadel where mez can really be a dps dampner before characters and builds mature.  But even with Incarnates I find reason enough to take this one slot wonder.  There are teams who are fighting enough mez users to stop a late game armored user at times (like 3 +4 Master Illusionists and friends all hitting Flash and or Blind in overlap).

 

I agree with everything said about CM. Another great power that should be a staple of every Emp, and I have maintained that stance since I started playing one.


This was my final build for the toon. It's showing it's age and will need a massive update, but if I could do this in 2009 then surely someone with the right knowledge can do much better in the current meta

Spoiler

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Edited March 22 by euNoir

[Doomguide2005]

     Your data chunk is leading me to a Savage/Regen build not an Empath. 

     My current thinking is I need to create a new Empath and level it up using AP and see how it plays different.  After all the discussion I'm thinking 90% of this is play style differences most of which results in what you get used to you tend to be better at doing all other things the same.  You level and become used to playing with AP and you are just less likely to get into trouble whereas when you don't you are more likely to find it problematic especially switching up after you've played many hours one way vs the other.  A sort of self fullfilling feedback if you will.  

[Zect]

33 minutes ago, Doomguide2005 said:

     My current thinking is I need to create a new Empath and level it up using AP and see how it plays different.

 

This is the opposite of what you need to do, because no leveling content does enough damage to warrant the use of AP. AP is for when the AV has enough dps to kill the tank in seconds and you need to withstand that for minutes in a row. Go play a 4* aeon preferably with a scrap or brute tanking, or some of the higher level 801 stuff.

[Doomguide2005]

So in otherwords you basically agree with my original position that HO/HA with other buffs is enough for the vast majority of the game's 'normal' content.  That the real edge of AP's advantage is in the games hardest content i.e. hardmode and challenge AE content?

 

PS:  Already working on an alt build for my main Empath incorporating AP and intended for Hardmode and challenge content.

PS 2:  reminds that a long time ago my first GM had only HA ... SO only build with the bare beginnings of i9 IOs did fine until she tried to support the Tanker in the then brand new STF.  Respec immediately followed adding HO.  Wasn't until creating alt builds for the RWZ challenge in about i13 that I didn't include HO in my Empath build again. 

Edited March 22 by Doomguide2005