The Fantastic Four: First Steps

[Ghost]

5 hours ago, ShardWarrior said:

 

Being bummed about others having a different opinion says more about the beholder than the beheld as well.  😉

 

As I said, and will repeat yet again, I like Pedro Pascal as an actor.  I think he is a fine actor and I have enjoyed much of his work over the years.  He is fantastic in the Mandalorian.  I just do not see him in the role of Reed Richards.  That is not an insult of him or his talent. 

I’m curious.

Did you see Michael Keaton as Batman when he was first cast?

what did you think of his portrayal?

[ShardWarrior]

1 hour ago, Techwright said:

Then this is opportunity.  Pedro's time to step up. 

 

You can apply this to any role in any play or film or television program.  Again, actors are very talented people, but not every actor or actress is the right fit for every role. 

 

1 hour ago, Techwright said:

But the role that people say an actor cannot play is exactly the role many an actor dying to be a great actor craves.  The one where he/she is not typecasted or otherwise pigeon-holed.

 

Well sure, this can work sometimes.  Other times, it is a disaster.  It worked for Schwarzenegger when he was told he could not do comedic roles.  That does not mean Schwarzenegger would make a great King Lear or Richard III or would be the perfect casting choice for a role simply because he really wants the part.

 

1 hour ago, Techwright said:

Look, I agree: Pedro didn't strike me as Reed Richards either. Still doesn't.

 

For me neither, and yet everyone seems to want to argue about it.  I will repeat yet again, I like Pedro Pascal and have enjoyed his work.  He is a fine actor.  I can repeat that yet again in case anyone missed it.

 

1 hour ago, Techwright said:

Do I think he's right for the part?  Not from what I know of his work, but I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt to see if he can show a range I'd not anticipated in him.  I'll be very happy to be wrong in my initial opinion, and am hoping the director gives him enough leeway to succeed.

 

I completely agree.  I did not think Gal Gadot was right for Wonder Woman, but I am happy to admit I was wrong.  I was in the "Heath Ledger??  Really??" camp when he was cast as the Joker, and was pleasantly surprised by his performance.  I hope Pedro Pascal pulls off the part.  As of now, I do not feel he was the right choice for it though. 

[ShardWarrior]

1 minute ago, Ghost said:

I’m curious.

Did you see Michael Keaton as Batman when he was first cast?

what did you think of his portrayal?

 

No, I did not and I still do not.  While Michael Keaton is a fantastic actor and I think captured the tormented and dark parts of the character, I just cannot take him seriously as a physically imposing and intimidating figure who strikes fear into the hearts of Gotham's criminals.  I still love the movies though. 

 

I suppose you are going to want to argue about this now, yes?

[Ghost]

16 minutes ago, ShardWarrior said:

 

No, I did not and I still do not.  While Michael Keaton is a fantastic actor and I think captured the tormented and dark parts of the character, I just cannot take him seriously as a physically imposing and intimidating figure who strikes fear into the hearts of Gotham's criminals.  I still love the movies though. 

 

I suppose you are going to want to argue about this now, yes?

No need to act an a$$.

I simply asked a question and did it in a non confrontational way.  

[InvaderStych]

15 hours ago, Luminara said:

The last Reed Richards was ripped apart when he tried to stretchy-grab Scarlet Witch (second Doctor Strange film), so "world's smartest man" might not be the most applicable title.  Probably okay if he doesn't look super-nerdy.

 

So much this.

 

I struggle to take Stretch Armstro... I mean Reed Richards seriously (regardless of who is cast in the role). Parody of this team in The Venture Bros. is sheer perfection though.

 

In fairness to the movie though, Art Department went all out. Set-Deco is great, vehicles/props also great, color palette is perfect. Might even make for a solid entry in the litany of Marvel movies. I'm willing to admit my opinion on the team itself is just a me thing. 🍻

[battlewraith]

None of the MCU characters are accurate to the superheroes that I followed in comics as a child. Antman wasn't a goofus. Thor spent half his time as a physician who walked with a cane. Iron Man was more of an engineer than a scientist and he didn't have expertise on time travel and all the other stuff he does in the MCU. The classic Reed Richards from the comic books is basically like a character from one of those "father-knows-best" sitcoms. An accurate portrayal to how he was in the comics would be laughably anachronistic in 2025. 

 

I get the complaint that "I don't picture this actor as ....", but you really don't know until you give them a chance. Ian Flemming didn't want Sean Connery as Bond initially. Roald Dahl hated Gene Wilder as Wonka. An actor's performance sometimes drives an evolution of the character. As people have pointed out, not being accurate to Kirby era Reed might be a good thing.

 

[Techwright]

2 hours ago, InvaderStych said:

 

I struggle to take Stretch Armstro... I mean Reed Richards seriously (regardless of who is cast in the role). Parody of this team in The Venture Bros. is sheer perfection though.
 

 

I'm not defending the character, but scientific genius in RL doesn't necessarily mean a heightened thinking in all areas.  I once heard it said that Einstein was often escorted across the street by others as his mind was so wrapped up in some computation or other that he would frequently forget to take his safety into account.

 

(Also, pretty much every hero in that council of the Illuminati was an idiot for attacking Scarlet Witch head on and one at a time.)

[InvaderStych]

9 minutes ago, Techwright said:

I'm not defending the character, but scientific genius in RL doesn't necessarily mean a heightened thinking in all areas.

 

Fair, although that was never what I found irritating about the character.

 

42 minutes ago, battlewraith said:

The classic Reed Richards from the comic books is basically like a character from one of those "father-knows-best" sitcoms.

 

This was. Which is what made the TVB parody so delicious. The sinister nature behind the veneer.

[ZacKing]

1 hour ago, battlewraith said:

I get the complaint that "I don't picture this actor as ....", but you really don't know until you give them a chance. Ian Flemming didn't want Sean Connery as Bond initially. Roald Dahl hated Gene Wilder as Wonka. An actor's performance sometimes drives an evolution of the character. As people have pointed out, not being accurate to Kirby era Reed might be a good thing.

 

Well sure.  Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't.  Zack Snyder thought Jesse Eisenberg was perfect for Lex Luthor.  Some casting director thought Keanu Reeves could effectively pull off a British accent for Dracula.  Back in the day, John Wayne was picked to portray Ghengis Khan and Mickey Rooney a Japanese man.  The list can go on and on.  Were all of these actors not talented?  No.  They just weren't the right choice for the part and it showed in the final product.

 

Of course I'll give Pedro Pascal the benefit of the doubt.  As of this moment, he doesn't fit the part for me and I've yet to see anything to change my mind.  Maybe I'll be surprised and I hope I am, but I'll be surprised if I am surprised.   

[JKCarrier]

1 hour ago, Techwright said:

I once heard it said that Einstein was often escorted across the street by others as his mind was so wrapped up in some computation or other that he would frequently forget to take his safety into account.

 

Ironically, Jack Kirby had the same problem. His wife Roz joked that she had to do all the driving, because if Jack got behind the wheel, he'd get distracted thinking about stories and end up running into a tree.

[Luminara]

1 hour ago, ZacKing said:

Zack Snyder thought Jesse Eisenberg was perfect for Lex Luthor.

 

The worst part of Snyder's LL wasn't the casting, it was the writing.  Not saying that Eisenberg wasn't horribly miscast, but taking Superman's arch-nemesis and turning him into a petulant, yammering idiot, that was too much to swallow.

 

What hurt even more was Luthor somehow uncovering the identities of both Batman and Superman, and instead of reporting them to every government, news agency and criminal group on the planet, which would've resulted in Wayne being financially ruined and actually living in a cave instead of just working out of one, and Superman having to take his mom and hide in the most remote location he could find... dude tries to make them beat each other up.

 

 

And while I'm angry, why the FUCK did they have Lois shouting "Clark!" when Supes was resurrected?  COME THE FUCK ON!  She's yelling his name in front of people, it's not going to take much dot connecting for anyone to figure out that the 6'1", dark-haired superhero named Clark is the 6'1" dark-haired reporter Clark Kent.

 

Oh, no, wait, that's right, no-one in the Snyderverse has more than two motherfucking brain cells, which is why LL's attempt to frame Superman by shooting people was supposed to be believable.

 

If I ever meet the jackasses who wrote that shit, I'm going to smack their heads with a pile of forensic science books.

 

Okay, I feel better.  Lunch?

[Techwright]

3 hours ago, Luminara said:

Okay, I feel better.  Lunch?

 

Sure!  There's this place I heard about.  Supposedly serves a mean peach tea to die for.

[TTRPGWhiz]

7 hours ago, Luminara said:

 

The worst part of Snyder's LL wasn't the casting, it was the writing.  Not saying that Eisenberg wasn't horribly miscast, but taking Superman's arch-nemesis and turning him into a petulant, yammering idiot, that was too much to swallow.

 

What hurt even more was Luthor somehow uncovering the identities of both Batman and Superman, and instead of reporting them to every government, news agency and criminal group on the planet, which would've resulted in Wayne being financially ruined and actually living in a cave instead of just working out of one, and Superman having to take his mom and hide in the most remote location he could find... dude tries to make them beat each other up.

 

 

And while I'm angry, why the FUCK did they have Lois shouting "Clark!" when Supes was resurrected?  COME THE FUCK ON!  She's yelling his name in front of people, it's not going to take much dot connecting for anyone to figure out that the 6'1", dark-haired superhero named Clark is the 6'1" dark-haired reporter Clark Kent.

 

Oh, no, wait, that's right, no-one in the Snyderverse has more than two motherfucking brain cells, which is why LL's attempt to frame Superman by shooting people was supposed to be believable.

 

If I ever meet the jackasses who wrote that shit, I'm going to smack their heads with a pile of forensic science books.

 

Okay, I feel better.  Lunch?

 

Clark Kent’s “disguise” has been people clothes, some glasses and bad posture for damn near 90 years; it’s never gonna be the movies’ fault that people (including Pulitzer Prize winning investigative reporters) are fooled by it.

 

My personal headcanon is that folks just let him pretend to be Clark because they figure it keeps him happy and not destroying everything/everyone. It’s the dumbest disguise in the history of disguises, but why poke the bear.

[battlewraith]

 

[Luminara]

9 hours ago, TTRPGWhiz said:

Clark Kent’s “disguise” has been people clothes, some glasses and bad posture for damn near 90 years; it’s never gonna be the movies’ fault that people (including Pulitzer Prize winning investigative reporters) are fooled by it.

 

There's a marked difference between "He's a tall, dark-haired, Caucasian guy", and "He's a tall, dark-haired, Caucasian guy who Lois Lane referred to as 'Clark'".

 

Presuming Metropolis has a population of ~8.5 million, the former describes several hundred thousand men in the city of Metropolis alone, and tens of millions across the United States.

 

The latter narrows the list down to fewer than 65,000 in the entire nation, only a few dozen within Metropolis, and likely fewer than five associated with Lois through family, friends and co-workers.  The police officer who was standing next to Lois when she started shouting "CLARK!  CLARK!" could've had his full name, home address, place of business, everything, within minutes after a simple NCIC search.

 

Lois revealing his first name was akin to Alfred running after Batman in the middle of a crowded street, yelling, "Master Wayne, Master Wayne, you forgot your Bat Shark Repellent!"

[BrandX]

2 hours ago, Luminara said:

 

There's a marked difference between "He's a tall, dark-haired, Caucasian guy", and "He's a tall, dark-haired, Caucasian guy who Lois Lane referred to as 'Clark'".

 

Presuming Metropolis has a population of ~8.5 million, the former describes several hundred thousand men in the city of Metropolis alone, and tens of millions across the United States.

 

The latter narrows the list down to fewer than 65,000 in the entire nation, only a few dozen within Metropolis, and likely fewer than five associated with Lois through family, friends and co-workers.  The police officer who was standing next to Lois when she started shouting "CLARK!  CLARK!" could've had his full name, home address, place of business, everything, within minutes after a simple NCIC search.

 

Lois revealing his first name was akin to Alfred running after Batman in the middle of a crowded street, yelling, "Master Wayne, Master Wayne, you forgot your Bat Shark Repellent!"

 

Snyder always sucked.  I think that's the most important thing to remember.  Lois calling out for Clark was always dumb.  Same as Superman acting like the symbol didn't look like an S, when it's always looked like an S.  "It's not an S.  It's a symbol.  It means hope."

He was raised on Earth and the conversation, while I actually enjoy MoS, was terrible there imo 😛

[Without_Pause]

20 minutes ago, BrandX said:

Snyder always sucked.

I liked 300. I'm not sure what else of his I have seen, but I also really don't care to watch anything else at this point. 

[Techwright]

13 hours ago, TTRPGWhiz said:

 

Clark Kent’s “disguise” has been people clothes, some glasses and bad posture for damn near 90 years; it’s never gonna be the movies’ fault that people (including Pulitzer Prize winning investigative reporters) are fooled by it.

 

My personal headcanon is that folks just let him pretend to be Clark because they figure it keeps him happy and not destroying everything/everyone. It’s the dumbest disguise in the history of disguises, but why poke the bear.

 

You know, there's an incredibly easy fix for all this: the glasses.  Have Fortress of Solitude Jor-El A.I. design and print a high-tech Kryptonian device that looks like a normal pair of eyeglasses.  When Clark dons them, they do some high-tech Kryptonian mumbo-jumbo that messes with people's perceptions.  To any looking at him, glasses-wearing Clark appears similar but visibly different enough that he's never really considered.  In essence, these Kryptonian glasses become his mask.  

 

Doctor Who had a similar concept they called a "perception filter".  It was designed to hide something in plain sight by influencing people to look anywhere but straight at the object.

[ThaOGDreamWeaver]

22 hours ago, JKCarrier said:

I once heard it said that Einstein was often escorted across the street by others as his mind was so wrapped up in some computation or other that he would frequently forget to take his safety into account.

One of my jobs when I was younger was assistant to a UMUC history professor, who was a genius IQ, regularly consulted for analysis on international crises, and was a thought leader in the diplomatic field.

 

My main jobs were helping with marking deadlines, using email, making sure he got flights on time with his passport and docs, and finding him when he got lost in his own hotel. Again. On the same day. Some stereotypes are just offensively accurate.

 

28 minutes ago, Techwright said:

You know, there's an incredibly easy fix for all this: the glasses.

 

...we sure that's gonna work all the time?

 

But I had a similar thought a while back, when just pondering how I'd run Supes' time on Earth. Given there are capes about already (WW for one), a young Clark is going to get noticed, no matter how hard he tries. One option would be for a magic-related hero/heroine to show up in Smallville, possibly undercover as a visiting schools' counsellor, who provides him with glasses with a glaimr that subtly distorts how people and cameras see him.

 

Mind you, looking back at Chris Reeve, he does the whole thing with acting.

Watch the physical changes in face, body, movement, pose, everything.

 

And yes, Keaton's Bat-transformation is similar - though rooted in the idea that Bruce and the Bat are two entirely different characters: and as far from the likes of Beetlejuice or any of his other comic characters as you can get. (Also: seriously, go see Birdman. Globe win and Oscar nom fully deserved.)

 

As for what Pedro could do with this... well, we've got only a few seconds of teaser to go on. But I get the sense that this Reed is later on in an acclaimed scientific and caping career, presenting the strong, confident, successful 50s-ideal-dad persona on the surface... and still the same old self-doubting nerd underneath.

 

Pedro's done a lot of different stuff, some fantastic (Beale St., Mando, Unbearable Weight Of Massive Talent, Last Of Us)... and some not so much (WW1984, Gladiator II).

Can he pull this off? Let's see what he does with this.

[ShardWarrior]

14 hours ago, TTRPGWhiz said:

Clark Kent’s “disguise” has been people clothes, some glasses and bad posture for damn near 90 years; it’s never gonna be the movies’ fault that people (including Pulitzer Prize winning investigative reporters) are fooled by it.

 

I am not sure people in general are supposed to be fooled by it, rather they are simply oblivious to their surroundings and just not that observant.  Not sure anyone remembers this, but Henry Cavill in Times Square wearing a Superman shirt standing beneath the giant billboard for BvS.  Not a single person recognized him.

 

 

I do agree someone like a Lois Lane would be able to figure out his identity though.

 

Edited 3 hours ago by ShardWarrior

[battlewraith]

2 hours ago, Without_Pause said:

I liked 300. I'm not sure what else of his I have seen, but I also really don't care to watch anything else at this point. 

Snyder is really good at doing a certain kind of visual style. There was a project for one of the Iphones where they had people make short films with their phones and his entry was remarkable for what he was able to accomplish with a phone. It was also pretty recognizable as his work. I liked the Dawn of the Dead movie he did and Watchmen. He's one of those directors that had some good work, but once they had clout, a bigger budget, and more control over every part of the production, things started to go south.

[JKCarrier]

2 hours ago, Techwright said:

 

You know, there's an incredibly easy fix for all this: the glasses.  Have Fortress of Solitude Jor-El A.I. design and print a high-tech Kryptonian device that looks like a normal pair of eyeglasses.  When Clark dons them, they do some high-tech Kryptonian mumbo-jumbo that messes with people's perceptions.  To any looking at him, glasses-wearing Clark appears similar but visibly different enough that he's never really considered.  In essence, these Kryptonian glasses become his mask. 

There was a story in the 1970s where they "revealed' that Clark had been subconsciously hypnotizing everyone all these years into thinking that Clark and Superman didn't look alike. It was widely ridiculed, and almost immediately got swept under the rug and forgotten.

[Techwright]

20 minutes ago, JKCarrier said:

There was a story in the 1970s where they "revealed' that Clark had been subconsciously hypnotizing everyone all these years into thinking that Clark and Superman didn't look alike. It was widely ridiculed, and almost immediately got swept under the rug and forgotten.

 

I can see how ridiculous that is, But that was one of those ridiculous super powers they went bonkers with in the 1950s, like super-ventriloquism.   What I refer to is something separate from his personal nature.  And Kryptonian science is supposed to be on the edge of that oft-quoted idea of looking like magic to those from a lesser culture.

 

1 hour ago, ThaOGDreamWeaver said:

One of my jobs when I was younger was assistant to a UMUC history professor, who was a genius IQ, regularly consulted for analysis on international crises, and was a thought leader in the diplomatic field.

 

My main jobs were helping with marking deadlines, using email, making sure he got flights on time with his passport and docs, and finding him when he got lost in his own hotel. Again. On the same day. Some stereotypes are just offensively accurate.

 

 

Yikes!  Let's hope an international crisis never involves hotel corridors.

 

1 hour ago, ThaOGDreamWeaver said:

One of my jobs when I was younger was assistant to a UMUC history professor, who was a genius IQ, regularly consulted for analysis on international crises, and was a thought leader in the diplomatic field.

 

My main jobs were helping with marking deadlines, using email, making sure he got flights on time with his passport and docs, and finding him when he got lost in his own hotel. Again. On the same day. Some stereotypes are just offensively accurate.

 

 

...we sure that's gonna work all the time?

 

But I had a similar thought a while back, when just pondering how I'd run Supes' time on Earth. Given there are capes about already (WW for one), a young Clark is going to get noticed, no matter how hard he tries. One option would be for a magic-related hero/heroine to show up in Smallville, possibly undercover as a visiting schools' counsellor, who provides him with glasses with a glaimr that subtly distorts how people and cameras see him.

 

It's a fair point, and one I was considering after I wrote it.  ID photos for driver's licenses, requiring the removal of glasses, would set that up as well.  One thought I had was to use a small transparent "dot" of Kryptonian tech that can be adhered to the temple and act like a temporary version of the glasses (smaller tech = tiny battery = less charge, short term).  That allows for short periods of removing the glasses.  As it is Kryptonian science-like-magic it would be easy to wave a hand to say the science can baffle any Earth tech as well.   I'm sure if a serious writer ever covered it for comic or movie, they could create a definitive Kryptonian tech explanation.

 

I like the idea of a magic wielder getting involved, but then they'd have to appear in every version of the Superman tale.  A.I. Jor-El does so now (at least, as far as I can recall) and therefore it's tech "magic" could fit the bill.  The takeaway, though, is that, whether advanced science or magic, there's avenues of explanation DC's never explored for a "simple" disguise. 

 

I'd also like to add that your concept of the magic user arriving when Clark is in school, is on point.  The idea of getting him using the glasses early, magic or tech, means that those subtle changes that happen over the teen years will seem natural to those he grows up with.  It reinforces the idea that anyone who goes looking, even back to early Supes appearances around Smallville, will never associate the two faces as one person.

 

Personally, though, I'm much more into the stories where Lois finds out early on, and chooses to sink the story.  This maintains her reputation as Pulitzer-level investigative journalist, while fleshing out her compassion over her aggressive "news hound" nature.

 

1 hour ago, ShardWarrior said:

 

I am not sure people in general are supposed to be fooled by it, rather they are simply oblivious to their surroundings and just not that observant.  Not sure anyone remembers this, but Henry Cavill in Times Square wearing a Superman shirt standing beneath the giant billboard for BvS.  Not a single person recognized him.

 

 

Great point!  It reminded me of a pair of situations the TV show Candid Camera set up back in the 1970s.  As I recall, both took place in New York City.

 

In one,  the crew built a door right in the middle of the sidewalk.  People casually walked around it.  A few of them even opened it and walked through it without really focusing on it.  No one actually stopped to wonder why someone had set a door up that way.

 

In the second, a guy dressed up in a gorilla suit and walked the city.  No one even blinked an eye.

[TTRPGWhiz]

2 hours ago, ShardWarrior said:

 

I am not sure people in general are supposed to be fooled by it, rather they are simply oblivious to their surroundings and just not that observant.  Not sure anyone remembers this, but Henry Cavill in Times Square wearing a Superman shirt standing beneath the giant billboard for BvS.  Not a single person recognized him.

 

 

I do agree someone like a Lois Lane would be able to figure out his identity though.

 

Cool. Now what if he took off that jacket, flew around and fought a giant monster. People might notice.
(also: an edited Inside Edition clip is probably not great evidence. This is like saying nobody in LA knows their state's capital because a two minute Tonight Show clip says so)

Edited 32 minutes ago by TTRPGWhiz

[TTRPGWhiz]

7 hours ago, Luminara said:

 

There's a marked difference between "He's a tall, dark-haired, Caucasian guy", and "He's a tall, dark-haired, Caucasian guy who Lois Lane referred to as 'Clark'".

 

Presuming Metropolis has a population of ~8.5 million, the former describes several hundred thousand men in the city of Metropolis alone, and tens of millions across the United States.

 

The latter narrows the list down to fewer than 65,000 in the entire nation, only a few dozen within Metropolis, and likely fewer than five associated with Lois through family, friends and co-workers.  The police officer who was standing next to Lois when she started shouting "CLARK!  CLARK!" could've had his full name, home address, place of business, everything, within minutes after a simple NCIC search.

 

Lois revealing his first name was akin to Alfred running after Batman in the middle of a crowded street, yelling, "Master Wayne, Master Wayne, you forgot your Bat Shark Repellent!"

In-universe, Superman would have the most recognizable face on the planet. This just doesn't hold water. It wouldn't take someone yelling his first name for people to figure out who he is. Internet 'sleuths' deduce much less public people's identities (and jobs, addresses, families, etc.) all the time. And that's without WayneTech.

There's no need to twist logic this hard to cover for a terrible plot device. His disguise is dumb.