Make Origins More Relevant

[Llewellyn Blackwell]

Whoah peeps, let's all calm down and get back to the main point...

 

 

... Which is that origins shouldn't be more relevant to the game play, that is.  ;D

 

Thank you.  :)

 

I mean, for getting us back on track, not about origins. Speaking of, is there a reason you think they shouldn't, aside from some form of "they haven't been up to now"? I mean, I should make it clear that I'm perfectly aware of their lack of historical relevance. I wouldn't have started this thread otherwise.

 

Should power color affect the power's effect? Should red powers do more damage, and white powers add -recharge?

 

Because when that's the same argument that I could make for origins. If they have an effect, then other things like power color should have an effect. A LONG time ago, the Devs decided that certain things that were cosmetic shouldn't affect game play. They made origins largely cosmetic with their design choices. We should follow their lead, IMHO.

 

No not the devs, the head Dev, Tyrant State Jack himself who treated those who stuck with us like Sister Psyche as unworthy of even having an opinion that made sense.

 

Its not merely cosmetic, especially at launch the starting contacts had a huge impact on what foes youd face. and most RPers tend to do the same still picking those early foe types connected with their origin as their main targets. mystical detectives seek out skulls and hellions, street wise mutants hunt the outcast and trolls etc.

 

Our origin does have a strong psychological motivation component clearly.

 

I personally want this simply because Jack told everyone no he was right and this is how it  is. While no big fan of sister psyche compared to say War Witch, I firmly believe she was the one in the right with her view of origins if not quite as draconian in how Id see it done.

[Llewellyn Blackwell]

 

While I get that some are not into the idea and want it meaningless. That was basically the view of Jack the tyrant Emmert who over road and stamped out everything he didnt like and did so while saying you dont know better then me so thank me for knowing better then you.

 

Hitler ate sugar. This is not an indictment of sugar.

 

So what about this, instead temp power vendors similar to P2W, that carry things in the same line as our origin powers, or even  higher teir versions of our origin power we can sink inf in to upgrade?

 

This could work, but if origins can't be respecced, a lot of people are going to be faced with a character who would've made more sense as a different origin had they known in advance which powers would be associated to what, and now have to rebuild the character from level 1. Nothing will make a system unpopular more quickly than inconvenience.

 

Sugar is evil though, like seriously fuck corn syrup and soda and all the diabetics it has helped create. May as well let us buy hard drugs and radioactive isotopes over the counter to, because free will and all that crap right?

[EggKookoo]

Just want to point out that your fear of too many powers was something said by those who opposed fitness being inherent, basically saying they didnt want more temptations to  divide up their slots.

 

No fear, just due diligence.

 

So yes you could obviously still take the pools made inherent as chosen pools if wished in my suggestion. Nothing wrong with petty dabblers in the arcane arts;)

 

As always the amount of powers taken in the sub pools,and how we slot them would remain unchanged. It would still be our choice.

 

IIRC (and I may not be) I thought when they made Fitness inherent, they let anyone who had already taken Fitness grab new pool powers. Or am I not quite following..?

 

However I dont think your suggestion is a bad one. It would still require other pools being made for the other origins. Id think that level of work would be more warranted if it was part of my inherents being added suggestion

 

Possibly. I'm definitely intrigued by the general idea. I mean Sorcery is screaming out for a connection to the Magic origin. Maybe Gadgetry for Tech, Force of Will for Natural, and Experimentation for Science. Then it's just coming up with something for Mutation.

[TheBlindGirl]

I don't think a fear of having too many powers to slot is particularly sensible in any context. If the new powers don't need slots, you don't give them new slots. If the new powers do need slots, then it's because that's a better use of slots than your previous build. If there's anything to worry about, it's that giving out new inherent powers might make characters tend more towards being overpowered. City of Heroes was never particularly aimed at min-maxers, though. We can trade off on that for a long time before it becomes a problem.

[Leogunner]

Which obviously implies, lack of willingness to act = your argument.  That's basically saying because we're lazy is why you're right.

 

Digging a canal from California to Virginia would require people to have a willingness to act. Most people are not digging a canal from California to Virginia. Do you think they're lazy?

 

I'll help your analogy: If people are discussing possible avenues of adding to a small lakeside scene such as adding a deck to a lakeside cabin or offering boat rides to tourists then you march in, claiming we're trying to make the lake bigger so we should dig a canal, not just from another lake to ours but from California to Virginia (why, I have no damned clue) then accusing people of inaction...

 

THEN your analogy is complementary to this point.

 

Also take notice how one can create an irrelevant analogy and form it in a fashion to make one side seem unreasonable and illogical.

 

I hope you're taking notes.

 

Despite their lingering bitterness - to their own insistence on having a hostile argument on the subject, I guess - everyone has silently conceded that my assessment of the plausibility of creating new story arcs is accurate and moved on to talking about other possibilities. Even you aren't actually discussing the creation of new story arcs anymore.

 

So, no, actually. The opposite of that.

 

Or maybe people are trying to have a reasonable (if perhaps slightly heated) back and forth about a controversial topic and some individual with unreasonable talking points buts in and accuses others of being unreasonable to the point they are blocked.  You know, I'm doing you a favor.  I'm probably the only one left in the thread willing to talk to you.

 

lol help me help you get back into the discussion....or not, I can just keep shooting down your arguments and bump the thread.

 

 

But back on topic, I think the main reason I posted in the thread is almost the opposite of what the OP wants.  I have Technology heroes that I want to feel more Magic oriented.  One might say, well why didn't you make them magic origin and the answer is, because they are tech (or science depending on which character I'm talking about).  They're both and I'd like some emphasis on that as well.

[EggKookoo]

But back on topic, I think the main reason I posted in the thread is almost the opposite of what the OP wants.  I have Technology heroes that I want to feel more Magic oriented.  One might say, well why didn't you make them magic origin and the answer is, because they are tech (or science depending on which character I'm talking about).  They're both and I'd like some emphasis on that as well.

 

I would not be in favor of an approach that prohibited you from making your "magic tech" hero. Mainly, I just want my choice of origin to matter (mechanically) to some degree across my character's leveling career. That could come in the form of additional mission content that's aimed at my origin. It could come in the form of specific enemies that relate to it. It could come in the form of inherent pools that relate to it. It could come in a form no one has come up with yet.

 

I want to broaden the landscape, not narrow it.

[TheBlindGirl]

 

I'll help your analogy: If people are discussing possible avenues of adding to a small lakeside scene such as adding a deck to a lakeside cabin or offering boat rides to tourists

 

Are you offering to code in the proposed origin-centered story arcs yourself? The code is out there. You could've gotten started days ago.

 

Or maybe people are trying to have a reasonable (if perhaps slightly heated) back and forth about a controversial topic and some individual with unreasonable talking points buts in and accuses others of being unreasonable to the point they are blocked.

 

No one seems to have been blocked from discussing any of the other possibilities that have since come up. For that matter, only one person bothered addressing the actual concern that I raised.

[Leogunner]

 

I'll help your analogy: If people are discussing possible avenues of adding to a small lakeside scene such as adding a deck to a lakeside cabin or offering boat rides to tourists

 

Are you offering to code in the proposed origin-centered story arcs yourself? The code is out there. You could've gotten started days ago.

 

You really must think people don't see through your BS, as if someone would fall for you goading them into pursuing an idea they didn't come up with or even agree to.  We already know, no matter how much effort is put into suggesting something, it wouldn't be enough and you'd just practice picking nits and get your exercise shifting goal posts.  You're not clever enough to trick someone into wasting their time to entertain you.  Which is exactly why I've taken up the simple past-time of making your arguments sound as foolish as they truly are.

 

Or maybe people are trying to have a reasonable (if perhaps slightly heated) back and forth about a controversial topic and some individual with unreasonable talking points buts in and accuses others of being unreasonable to the point they are blocked.

 

No one seems to have been blocked from discussing any of the other possibilities that have since come up. For that matter, only one person bothered addressing the actual concern that I raised.

 

Not blocking from discussing.  Blocking YOU.  The person.

 

And that's not addressing your concern.  He was mainly pushing your own argument back to you.  You rebutted with basically a "no, YOU".

 

You still haven't actually responded to the reasonable notion of "Hold up, we don't want to start putting in effort to only have it wasted.  Let's discuss some other ideas." except with a "No you don't! DO SOME WORK".

 

Am I divining your posts right?

[jack_nomind]

I'm 100% with PK on this one.  Even something as 'minor' as buffing origin pool powers moves in the direction of stratifying builds in another way; if e.g. Gadgeteering has the best Tanking powers, then you end up with mostly Tech Tankers.  Worse, any changes to that pool start to look and feel like changes to the AT as a whole.

[TheBlindGirl]

You really must think people don't see through your BS, as if someone would fall for you goading them into pursuing an idea they didn't come up with or even agree to.

 

Why would you think I want that?

 

 

Not blocking from discussing.  Blocking YOU.  The person.

 

But you said that I was the one doing the blocking. Are you even keeping track of what you're saying?

 

And that's not addressing your concern.  He was mainly pushing your own argument back to you.

 

No. That's just not what the post says. He suggested an alternative.

 

You still haven't actually responded to the reasonable notion of "Hold up, we don't want to start putting in effort to only have it wasted.  Let's discuss some other ideas."

 

My response to that is "yes, do that, the story arcs idea is unimplementably difficult and thus not worth serious consideration."

 

Am I divining your posts right?

 

No. Certainly you are not decreasing my confidence in my assessment that you are a self-absorbed, self-aggrandizing narcissist.

[Xaeon]

Sorcery was meant to be the first of five paid for pool sets themed around the origins for players willing to shell out some cash to get access to them with Sorcery obviously being themed after Magic. The others being Force of Will (Mutation themed), Utility Belt (Natural themed), Gadgetry (technology themed), and Experimentation (Science themed) and yet even then they did not decide to lock them to origins. Certainly they would be useful for anyone who wanted their character to have a stronger thematic tie to their selected origin; but having a matching origin pool and origin don't even give you bonuses to those pool powers. 

 

Though I wouldn't be one hundred percent opposed to the idea of getting the origin pool powers for free like how Kheldians get their travel power pool...powers for free as they level up; while still being allowed to take the other pools (or even the non-free version of the pool if for some bizarre reason you want to double up) if they want.  It's mostly for the selfish reason of being envious of how Kheldians get versions of every fly/teleport power pool power besides air superiority/team teleport for free (though honestly for that I'd kinda be happy to have a slight Kheldian rework that lets them get like I dunno; Stellar Superiority and Umbral Assembly for free. Mostly because I want more melee attacks on PBs :U) and thus don't need to make build sacrifices to get stuff like Afterburner or Long Range teleport and I'll freely admit that. 

 

 

[Herotu]

How about this for an idea .. remove origin and replace it with...

 

WEAKNESS

 

Every superhero has one - now how do we make THAT a thing in the game without falling into the two traps that we have with Origins;

 

1. Limiting creativity too much _ note that super heroes have weaknesses varying from the colour yellow, to kryptonite to "hubris".

2. Irrelevant content - hello origin enhancements.

 

Make everyone deal with the Kheldian problem of randomly adding massively-overtuned enemies to otherwise-normal missions, even when there's no valid reason for said enemies to be there?  Hell NO.

 

Thanks for stating what you DON'T want to see. It does seem as though you're making a pretty big leap from my suggestion to your idea of how it might be implemented, however.

 

"Big leap"?  More like "logical first step".  The ONLY time you see a superhero's weakness mentioned in a comic book is when he's about to be screwed over by said weakness.  And as mentioned upthread, the only functional way to implement this mechanically is the Kheldian approach of arbitrarily granting enemies a "screw you" power - be it an attack that slices through your defenses (hello invuln psi hole), or being all-but-immune to your offense (stupidly-high smashing, lethal, or psi resist in lategame enemies).  Works great for a comic book where the writers can BS their way past the problem somehow, but player characters in a video game don't have plot armor to deal with this RNG-you-lose system.

 

You want to see PC weaknesses implemented beyond what's already enforced by the game?  Come up with something that doesn't hose the players and we'll talk.  Oh wait, that eliminates EVERY possible implementation of a weakness system.

 

You make an awful lot of assumptions here. I agree that there is a difference between comic books and video games, but I believe it's important to get as close as possible to comic books in order to be authentic in the superhero genre. That includes weaknesses.

 

It's important to note that heroes DO sometimes lose. It's vital to put them into dangerous situations where any amount of planning still sees them lose. "Hosing the player" is something that SHOULD happen. I don't share your perspective of making an invincible character that never loses. That would be a boring comic book.

 

Now, I'm not going to say that you should auto-lose in fights necessarily. There are ways and means. Look at the way villains get captured in CoV - they are put in police cells that they instantly break out of - that could be ONE way of doing things... alternative ways are clichéd villain death contraptions.

 

So there are lots of ways to play with the idea and YES, some DO HOSE THE PLAYER and I'm not ashamed of that. Don't you conjure new rules for me!

[Xaeon]

Very specific weaknesses like Kryptonite, Red Sunlight, Silver for Werewolves, or Religious symbols for Vampires are actually pretty rare in comic books as most authors prefer psychological or physical limitations or simply having challenges be harder to "X substance or energy is like anti-matter to them."

 

Also, the Void Seekers and Shadow Cysts were all but removed entirely from CoX, leaving only the Quantum Gunners, for a very good reason. First is that Kheldians simply aren't overwhelmingly powerful enough to warrant an entire gank squad like a Void Seeker Spawn or a surprise AV in the form of a Shadow Cyst to balance (and honestly they don't need Quantum Gunners to balance either), second is that surprise gank squads and sudden high level bosses that the player has no control over the spawning of is really irksome. It's cool when it's part of an arc or by setting off a controllable trigger (like the Stalker coming for you in Warframe via a random chance that is rolled every time you kill a boss; and you always get fair warning that he's coming before he spawns in), but when the trigger is "literally what character type you picked at the start" that's kind of bullcrap.

[EggKookoo]

It's unfortunate. The general concept of enemies that target you because of some particular thing (like your AT in the case of Kheldians) is a perfectly good one, and has plenty of comics precedent. Especially as you level up. Not just a CO-like Nemesis system but even just general "mutie hunters" and such. But they bungled it so bad with the Khelds that the playerbase has an aversion to anything like that now.

[Izuela]

I could see origin affecting NPC and Quest dialog text a bit. Just some minor flavor though. Not affecting rewards or mission layouts in any way. Because no matter how hard you try, something will be better. But even just text is hard to do right. I have one magic origin character who is basically a witch. Another who is part demon because her mother almost became a CoT sacrifice while pregnant. Their "magic" has very little in common. So it is hard to put in dialog that addresses it more then a generic "magically inclined person, such as yourself".

[Leogunner]

 

Not blocking from discussing.  Blocking YOU.  The person.

 

But you said that I was the one doing the blocking. Are you even keeping track of what you're saying?

 

My guess is you didn't try rereading the sentence then.  I even tried to clarify for you so you wouldn't have to go "self-absorbed", "self-aggrandizing" and "narcissistic" quote mine.  Here, I'll clarify for you again.

 

"Or maybe people are trying to have a reasonable (if perhaps slightly heated) back and forth about a controversial topic and some individual with unreasonable talking points buts in and accuses others of being unreasonable to the point they are blocked."

 

I can understand how you could confuse the wording because defaulting to pronouns can confuse which is the subject.  You read it as "people having a reasonable discussion then [subject] butts in and the people are blocked".  I tried clarifying it to be "[subjects] are having a reasonable discussion then nondescript person butts in until nondescript person is blocked".

 

And that's not addressing your concern.  He was mainly pushing your own argument back to you.

 

No. That's just not what the post says. He suggested an alternative.

 

Which you dismissed with the same argument.  He used your rationality against you and you just repeated the rationality rather than approach it differently so you wouldn't take a hypocritical stance.

 

You still haven't actually responded to the reasonable notion of "Hold up, we don't want to start putting in effort to only have it wasted.  Let's discuss some other ideas."

 

My response to that is "yes, do that, the story arcs idea is unimplementably difficult and thus not worth serious consideration."

 

Like was said by others, that's just your opinion (not backed by any sort of evidence or logic reasoning) but it's noted.  Speaking specifically of that idea (of some kind of story driven aspect to origins), I don't feel it is unimplementable.  If you're so confident in your experience with code, you should frankly feel embarrassed to say such an absolute, especially considering the vagueness of the suggestion.  For all that has been discussed, to make some kind of origin specific story dialog, you could emulate that with simple dialog trees which are wholly possible and currently utilized in the game.  And before you rebut with "Then do it! The code is there!", I'll repeat how juvenile such a response like that is.  I don't have to prove you can emulate origin story with dialog trees because the proof is in the concept.  It's like saying "I can make a CoH Youtube channel to promote the game."  There's nothing there to prove, because it's in the context of the statement.  Now if you said to prove that it's a worthwhile endeavor, that is something that I can't prove without evidence or data.

 

 

[OEM61]

I just want to throw this out there before I drop out of this.

 

The Scroll of Tielekku mission has your character "change" an altar and portals to change the Banished Pantheon's trap into a warning for the goddess.

 

So yeah, I thought that I remembered something of this sort in the game though someone said it didn't exist.

 

Doesn't matter what your character's background is, you are sent into a mission to change the nature of a complex magic ritual.

 

 

Also?  If you are bothered by the idea that your contact might send your science character on a mission that would result in them going into a lab and mixing up some chemicals to achieve some end, even though they are not a scientist?

 

Then you are immersed in your character.  However slight that immersion may be, you think that the game should respect what you have determined the background of your character to be.  If the game tells your character that they have to do something that you do not think that your character should be doing, then you are upset about them breaking your immersion in your character.

 

If you were not immersed in the idea that your character was not a scientist then it wouldn't matter.

 

Not that it really matters too much.

I demonstrated that a story could be constructed around a an origin without shoehorning the hero or villain into a particular type of character that might have that origin.

 

 

[malonkey1]

I just want to throw this out there before I drop out of this.

 

The Scroll of Tielekku mission has your character "change" an altar and portals to change the Banished Pantheon's trap into a warning for the goddess.

 

So yeah, I thought that I remembered something of this sort in the game though someone said it didn't exist.

 

Doesn't matter what your character's background is, you are sent into a mission to change the nature of a complex magic ritual.

 

 

Also?  If you are bothered by the idea that your contact might send your science character on a mission that would result in them going into a lab and mixing up some chemicals to achieve some end, even though they are not a scientist?

 

Then you are immersed in your character.  However slight that immersion may be, you think that the game should respect what you have determined the background of your character to be.  If the game tells your character that they have to do something that you do not think that your character should be doing, then you are upset about them breaking your immersion in your character.

 

If you were not immersed in the idea that your character was not a scientist then it wouldn't matter.

 

Not that it really matters too much.

I demonstrated that a story could be constructed around a an origin without shoehorning the hero or villain into a particular type of character that might have that origin.

 

I kind of assumed that your character was sort of flying by the seat of their pants with that sort of thing. "I dunno much about alchemy, but I know the 'chem' part, and I'm pretty sure I can Google the rest" was how I rationalized my science heroes dealing with "magical" mission objectives. Seems the world of CoH has at least a baseline level of magical and super-tech knowledge as widely available knowledge with a bit of digging.

[Leogunner]

I just want to throw this out there before I drop out of this.

 

The Scroll of Tielekku mission has your character "change" an altar and portals to change the Banished Pantheon's trap into a warning for the goddess.

 

So yeah, I thought that I remembered something of this sort in the game though someone said it didn't exist.

 

Doesn't matter what your character's background is, you are sent into a mission to change the nature of a complex magic ritual.

 

 

Also?  If you are bothered by the idea that your contact might send your science character on a mission that would result in them going into a lab and mixing up some chemicals to achieve some end, even though they are not a scientist?

 

Then you are immersed in your character.  However slight that immersion may be, you think that the game should respect what you have determined the background of your character to be.  If the game tells your character that they have to do something that you do not think that your character should be doing, then you are upset about them breaking your immersion in your character.

 

If you were not immersed in the idea that your character was not a scientist then it wouldn't matter.

 

Not that it really matters too much.

I demonstrated that a story could be constructed around a an origin without shoehorning the hero or villain into a particular type of character that might have that origin.

 

I kind of assumed that your character was sort of flying by the seat of their pants with that sort of thing. "I dunno much about alchemy, but I know the 'chem' part, and I'm pretty sure I can Google the rest" was how I rationalized my science heroes dealing with "magical" mission objectives. Seems the world of CoH has at least a baseline level of magical and super-tech knowledge as widely available knowledge with a bit of digging.

 

Exactly!

 

This is what I was trying to get at with earlier posts. Thinking about it, in our world, magic is mysterious and uncertain. In Coh, there are literal magic rituals in the parks. There would have to be videos online or even tutorials of basic magic stuff.

 

I remember in the old forums in a forum RP thread about teens going to a school to teach them about being super heroes, they had a class that taught basic magic. Granted, just like art, if you don't have a talent for it, you'd have to put more effort to learn or just keep it as background knowledge if you're not interested. It's the same with science or tech classes.

 

So it's not a question of can your character do something or not, it's if they are willing to try.

[DestinyPlayer]

I am honestly kind of surprised to see such a vehement reaction to a simple, straightforward suggestion of "more content". I can understand that people do not want to lock this content to specific origin, so as to not limit the availability of content to only some people, but the intensity of the reaction is what's surprising.

 

I think it would make more sense to not lock these story arks to certain origins, but instead just mark them as such? Or just make more missions that concentrate on some specific style or theme.

Edited April 2, 2020 by DestinyPlayer

[EggKookoo]

Ooh, necro thread.

 

Apparently the whole thing about origins being mechanically relevant was a big brouhaha in the early live days, or perhaps during alpha/beta testing. Bringing it up seemed to have reopened some wounds. But also people just like to pick fights, I guess?

[DestinyPlayer]

Oops, could've sworn it wasn't a necro. I thought that I bumped into this thread by just looking through the first page, but apparently I got linked to it and forgot about it. Sorry.

 

Anyway, I personally see little issue with adding some Origin-themed story arks, or even just specific quests. It's just more content.

[golstat2003]

12 minutes ago, DestinyPlayer said:

Oops, could've sworn it wasn't a necro. I thought that I bumped into this thread by just looking through the first page, but apparently I got linked to it and forgot about it. Sorry.

 

Anyway, I personally see little issue with adding some Origin-themed story arks, or even just specific quests. It's just more content.

As long as it's all optional, I see no issue.