People in General Chat are telling me that Super Strength sucks.

[kelika2]

Lack of solid AoE before level 26/30 is what keeps me away.  Sure I can log on my fire/ss or ss/fire and burn things while angry but hopefully one day Handclap will be a Moderate smash/energy .50 mag knock

[Maris]

>general chat

there's your problem

[Clave Dark 5]

Keep in mind that pretty much any power set in this game is perfectly playable.  Period. 

 

Forum/chat experts may tell you one or the other is awful, usually with a metaphor about animal droppings, but that's your cue to disregard them on that.  Some sets do min/max more uberly, some may have "more desirable" side effects like -To Hit... but they are all playable.  Play what you want!  Make it work for you, because it will work.  And if you don't like?  Make another toon.

[Azari]

I’m loving my invuln/SS tank.  I actually kind of like how archaic the set looks and feels. Rage’s sound FX is like something from Dark melee/blast/armor… it’s quite amusingly out of context and has always kinda contributed to my headcanon that somehow super strength is drawn from the underworld itself. LOL. It’s not a very heroic sound, it’s kinda sinister for just being super strength. I love it!

Edited February 25 by Azari

[Heatstroke]

Most of the complains about SS is two things, The fact that RAGE is really the key power of the set, and dealing with the " Rage Crash " and the -def from the crash neither of which is crippling. Thematically it makes perfect sense.. you've been " raging " adrenaline surge. I wears off, now you are tired.

 

My WP/SS Tank, Shield/SS Tank, Elec/SS tank and EA/SS Brute have had no issues with Super Strength as a power set. I have found it quite enjoyable.

[Azari]

Do you guys think Super Strength should be buffed?

[Infinitum]

On 2/24/2024 at 8:52 AM, Marshal_General said:

The brief time where it also causes the mobs to never miss?

 

The problem with SS is that if you took away Rage, Knockout Blow and Foot Stomp, you would not miss the rest of the set. I have seen a lot of builds replace much of SS's attacks with the attacks from the fighting pool and be better for it.

 

The rage crash can really screw over certain armor sets.

If you do nothing.   Yeah it will hurt you.

 

But, we do know it's there - and will happen.

 

You can bypass it rather easily by building extra defense and or popping a purple or two.   It's really not the end of the world and never has been. 

 

Not to mention more often than not it will drop after the mobs have been dispatched. 

 

It definitely isn't a big enough deal to not take SS. 

[ZemX]

16 hours ago, Azari said:

Do you guys think Super Strength should be buffed?

 

The only thing that is ever really debated with SS is the Rage Crash and possibly modifying or eliminating it and what would be needed to balance that.   It's otherwise difficult to argue the set needs a general buff when it is already top tier in performance.

 

For the rest of the set to be buffed, Rage would almost certainly need to be nerfed somehow to balance that and a LOT of people don't want that.

[Marshal_General]

The only way SS can be buffed/adjusted/fixed is if they made another set called Might and made all the adjustments for SS to it.

 

Otherwise people will be screaming on the forums, "MUH RAGE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"

[ZacKing]

On 2/22/2024 at 4:54 PM, ZemX said:

Hand Clap needs a knockdown IO to be useful and then it's only useful as a minor control power.

 

That depends on your build and how you're playing it.  Hand clap works great during a rage crash to prevent mobs from attacking you and knocking them away. 

 

I don't think SS sucks at all.  I have it on a bunch of brutes and tanks.  From my experience, most people who say it sucks don't know what they're talking about or feel that way because it's all smashing damage, which is the most resisted damage type in game. 

 

On 2/24/2024 at 8:52 AM, Marshal_General said:

The rage crash can really screw over certain armor sets.

 

It can, but that's where strategic use of Hand Clap and Footstomp come in. 

[Fritter Chicken]

On 2/22/2024 at 3:01 PM, Azari said:

What do you guys think? Do they just not understand it? Is it underrated? Overrated? Is rage really the worst thing since moldy sliced bread? I don't get where the hate is coming from, seems like SS used to be extremely popular.

 

During the time of the Sekrit Server the developers then fixed a bug in the system calculations.

 

Fixing that bug resulted in the full force of the Rage Mechanic inflicting itself upon the player.

 

I crafted a number of builds to try and mitigate the impact of the Rage Mechanic but my conclusion remains the same now as it was then: Reply #4 on: April 02, 2016, 10:14:46 am »

 

Right. To get the topic back on track; less about the Pretty Colors; more about the character.

It's a mixed bag of good and bad news.

The good news is that the theory worked. Even with Rage Crash in full effect the build is capable of living through a 707 Junction storm with no inspirations; which as Linea notes entails ~2.5k Spike damage, with ~1.3k to ~2.5k Sustained damage.

The bad news is that I'm only now beginning to understand the scope of just how torqued off the average Superstrength player is over the full effects of the Rage Crash.  Notably for me; the pain came not from the lack of damage or defense; but from the endurance penalty. 

Just to put this in perspective the R5 build in-game generates a non-accolade combat toggle mode 0.85/s drain on a 2.98/s recovery. A 2.13/s endurance delta isn't bad. However the build gets there in terms of toggles due to a constant ~17.52 endurance discount. Small note for those who have the build open in mids: the endurance discount figures as reported in Mids and as listed on the in-game Enhancement screen are not the figures that the combat attributes displays. I do not know if this is an issue with the combat attributes or a specific issue with endurance discounts being incorrectly calculated within the game.

In sustained combat the Brute ATO pushes the average endurance discount to an in-game effective ~24%~26%.  So, 25% off all power costs; and a decent delta between toggle drain and recovery that only gets larger as the endurance discount grows. Should make for a sustainable build... right?

Wrong. The Rage Endurance Penalty does not appear to be subject to endurance discounts or endurance reductions. At full tilt the Rage power is recharged approximately every minute; give or take a few seconds. The result is that once the rage penalty change starts kicking in; at least 50 endurance is auto-lost every 2 minutes. Hasten adds another -15 to this within the same 2 minute time span; resulting in at least -65 endurance every 2 minutes. With more than half accolade-buffed endurance just auto-gone; even with incarnate powers in play the build is easily one of the most endurance intensive builds I've put from paper into the game. Under full tilt attack chain conditions the R5 build is already gasping for blue-inspirations before the 90 second timer is even encountered.

Which; ultimately; feels like a bit of a kick while I'm down. It just is too much. Too much damage gone, too much defense gone, too much endurance gone. Even when working out the back of the napkin figures for accolade recovery amounts; and even including Ageless Core long-term recovery; the figures don't feel or look too particularly rosy.

I kind of thought the claims that the full rage crash ruined Superstrength character were overblown hyperbole. I'm not so sure on that now. Over the last couple of nights as I took Doozer out to hunt accolades I found an interesting series of thoughts percolating inside my noggin. The first thought that the payoff for this level of IO engineering on any other avatar resulted in a far superior payback. The second thought was that the build had the exact same endurance problem as my Peacebringer; but my PB at least included some extra endurance management options that the Invuln set simply didn't offer. The third and final thought was simple: You know what, this is just unplayable.

 

 

[strix_]

Super Strength is an OG Issue 0 set that got outpaced over time as more and more powersets got added for Tankers and Brutes that had similar strengths but lacked its downsides. Street Justice feels like the big one, given that it fills a similar thematic niche while having more useful tools for playing the modern game, since KDs are pretty consistently valued as more useful than KBs.

 

Couple that with HC Brutes/Tankers inheriting the proliferation of power sets during the Score years giving them even more options, it being pretty heavily impacted by the loss of Bruising for Tankers vs. other sets that have -Res directly built into their kit, and the fact that Super Strength hasn't gotten the love other powersets (like Battle Axe) have gotten in recent reworks, and it's picked up a reputation for being underpowered by comparison.

 

It's not bad, it's just old.

[Cheli]

"Sucks" is an oversimplification, the kind that tend to crop up in an atmosphere where people aren't exactly equipped to write page-long explanations for their feelings on a powerset (like general chat). There are any number of ways one person might consider a set underpowered, overpowered, et cetera. People in general chat also commit the opposite sin just as often, making feelcrafty judgments on the performance of a set based on their enjoyment of its aesthetics, theme or love of a character they play that has the set.

 

Reality is that every set has pros and cons, but some are more pro-y and con-y than others. SS is stuck with a lot of cons. Rage crash is one that can be built or insp'd around, but other sets have buildups that have no crash, and better dpa baseline than most SS powers, so leaning on the rage crutch and dealing with the crash can be seen as unnecessary hoops jumped through to reach the performance of other sets. Stomp and procout blow are crazy good but that's two powers in a set with 9. When pool powers are a better substitute than some of your actual primary/secondary attacks, that's not a sign that the set as a whole is in a good spot - but it's hard to really justify sweeping changes on a set that can do what SS does, all because of Rage. That leaves it in a difficult position.

 

As the last paragraph of @Fritter Chicken's quote says - what really differentiates sets is how much return you get for your overall investment. Ask yourself, if I put this much time and resources into a build using another powerset, would it perform better? For SS, the answer is sometimes 'yes'.

 

Considering the HC devs 'fixed' the placate-breaks-on-damage bug, but then were receptive enough to feedback to carve out an exception for vital stuff like Stalker ATOs, I wonder sometimes, if the stacking 'bug' had been 'fixed' on this server instead of the secret one, a similar exception would've been made for Rage, if indeed that's possible coding-wise. Because as much as people downplay the crash - understandable, given you can ignore the end problem if you're constantly popping blues or running ageless t4 on CD, or can ignore the def loss by popping purples (assuming you weren't blasted to dust in the second between Rage crashing and the insp buff registering, assuming you weren't animation locked when it happened), or are fine with standing there not using any attacks for 10s (again, assuming you weren't animation locked when the crash happened and oops you just blew a CD and watched your screen fill up with -1's because the crash registered in the time it took the animation to finish), it is a real thing you have to deal with that you don't on other sets.

 

Long story short you have to define what a powerset "sucks" means to really address this. Any powerset can be IO'd to functionality, but a powerset only having 3, maaaybe 4 desireable powers in it is a bad thing, even if those 3 powers are really good. And when one of them is the giant can of worms Rage is, it's difficult to say the set is in a great place balance-wise. But if you like it, and you can accept those things, you should play it (which is a common-sense thing that I assume everybody knows intuitively and doesn't need to be told, but it's the usual rejoinder to this kind of thread so I have to fit it in here to preempt anyone insisting I'm dumping on their playstyle or something.)

[Azari]

Super Strength is best paired with builds that focus most of the slots on armor sets. Or maybe regen on brutes. My SS’s attack chain is small but it works just fine.

[PyroBeetle]

SS is arguably the best attack set for anybody that has it for specific reason:

 

Rage.

 

It allows you to proc out your attacks all the way and never worry about missing even if you have no inherent accuracy slotted.

 

It's synergies work the same with the Cross Punch from the fighting pool, which is better than any ST attack you have other than KO blow. Kick and Punch are also netter than any other ST attack in the set so you can build that way.

 

However, as good as the set is, as much as a procced, capped build will just allow you to shrug off the rage crash, I still don't like playing the set. Double stack rage is great, but just not fun for me.

[Biff Pow]

9 hours ago, Marshal_General said:

The only way SS can be buffed/adjusted/fixed is if they made another set called Might and made all the adjustments for SS to it.

 

Otherwise people will be screaming on the forums, "MUH RAGE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"

 

Yeah, I'd make the current set "Smash" and the new set "Might", which would also be balanced with Scrappers and Stalkers in mind.

[Duckbutler]

I think this thread has gotten to the same placed I've gotten to with the set. It's fine, just not for everyone. Admittedly, I've been playing it on a brute rather than a tank and I don't even have foot stomp yet. Nor do I have the recharge to double stack rage. I just don't like the fact that I'm CC'ing myself for 10 seconds every time I cast it. If I'm double stacking that, casting it every minute, and only doing 1 damage per hit for 10 of every 60 seconds, that's going to annoy me more, not less. None of that is to say that the set doesn't work. With some (probably flawed) math, the numbers check out that double stacked rage is still a damage gain. I could very easily switch to Street Justice or Martial Arts for a similar theme/feel and I may do just that.

 

This reminds me of the pacify on berserk for Warriors on FFXIV. They had their big damage cooldown and when it was done they had a 5 second time out, outright couldn't attack at all. That lasted for two iterations of the game before they decided it just wasn't an interesting mechanic and removed it.

[Marshal_General]

Even if they fixed it, my problem would still be that I do not have a character that is the Hulk version of SS. Mine is the everyone else version of SS.

[Warboss]

During the crash, I just use another unaffected power, Sands of Mu, Energy Torrent (with KB>KD slotted), Heal, Absorb, Taunt, Electric Fences, drop Ice Patch, (some temp powers aren't affected by it), etc.. It may be a bit annoying, but the crash isn't really a reason to avoid the set. And depending on your creativity you can find a power or action that fits in with the theme of the character.

 

Or, don't take Rage (a bit of gimping to the set...) and take Assault (inferior damage to Rage) and see if that works for you.

 

Or try Stone Melee or Street Justice. Just don't take Fiery Melee! Can't have too many fire clones out there! 

Edited February 27 by Warboss

[ParagonKid]

This is Ston's Melee AT Archetype comparison. It is slightly old, but unless you have any newer numbers to present, it's the best thing to refer to.

 

 

For single target damage, Super Strength comes out about middle of the road. Trapdoor runs, which gauged AoE performance but are invalid now, bring it up a bit in the rankings on everage.

 

Either way, it is considered S Tier alongside Fiery Melee, Savage Melee, Axe, TW, Martial Arts etc.

 

It is considered comparable to them for damage output and "worth".

So what's the problem?

 

You know what those sets DON'T have that SS does? A crash. A built in drawback.

 

Why should Super Strength have a crash for the non-advantage of performing with around the same effectiveness as sets that are both better than it in some ways, but have no built in penalties themselves?

 

It really shouldn't. But it does.

 

That is why SS is "bad". Because it pays a price for mediocrity. It is taxed more for doing the same as other power sets.

 

And this is a totally fixable problem. You either raise its damage output to warrant a penalty being in place, or you remove the penalty. Relatively straight forward. Except for the fact nobody will lift a finger to fix it, but instead doubled down on it when they did have the chance to fix it and then left SS to wallow.

 

Which is why I'll always advise anyone asking to not engage with SS unless they absolutely need that specific flavor. Because the only good reason to take the set in its current state is for RPing.

Edited March 1 by ParagonKid

[Ringo]

Pretty sure Ston's Super Strength runs used Rage so Super Strength with the crash is one of the highest performing sets in those tests

[ZemX]

1 hour ago, ParagonKid said:

And this is a totally fixable problem. You either raise its damage output to warrant a penalty being in place, or you remove the penalty. Relatively straight forward. Except for the fact nobody will lift a finger to fix it, but instead doubled down on it when they did have the chance to fix it and then left SS to wallow.

 

It's not a problem, period.  Sets performing at or near the same level is not a problem.  It's the ideal.  Ideally all sets, not just these few, would perform at or near this same level.   Rage crash doesn't mean SS should be allowed to perform ABOVE other sets.  The crash is there to counterbalance the benefit because the benefit is HUGE.   If you simply cut out the crash without changing anything else, SS's overall damage output would go up.   It would go up the charts it's already at or near the top of.   I don't know in what universe you'd call that "balancing" but I'm glad it's not this one.

 

As I said earlier in the thread, really nothing about SS can be improved if Rage is not nerfed at the same time. Otherwise a set that is already top-tier gets even better.  I'm sure fans of SS don't have a problem with that but all the other powersets, including some finishing a full minute or more behind in Trapdoor might like to have a word.  Speaking of which....

 

... "wallow"?  Seriously?  I got a good chuckle out of that.  Can my Staff Fighter please "wallow" at the top of the Trapdoor clear speed charts with SS?  Pretty please? 🤪

[ParagonKid]

40 minutes ago, ZemX said:

Rage crash doesn't mean SS should be allowed to perform ABOVE other sets.

 

Absolutely it does.

 

If you have Powerset A that does X giggleflops of damage per second and Powerset B that ALSO does X giggleflops of damage per second, but Powerset B also punches you in the nose, that's not balanced; why would any sane person pick Powerset B ever?*

You either reduce A's damage, increase B's or remove the punches.

 

The response "the punches ain't so bad' speaks more to your poor understanding of balancing than mine.

 

To further illustrate my point with your own example of Staff:

 

Staff sacrifices damage for the flexibly of the Stances mechanic.

If Staff did X giggleflops of DPS and kept the Stances, why would you not pick Staff always?

 

Conversely, to be balanced, SS ought to gain superior damage over sets that do not have a built in crash/penalty because it HAS a crash/penalty.

 

You balance a pro with a con, and a con with a pro.

SS has a con, but no pro compared to other sets which do as good or better.

 

*The answer in the case of Super Strength is that people pick it because they are told to ignore the numbers and overlook the penalty by people who don't really know anything.

Edited March 1 by ParagonKid

[ZemX]

1 hour ago, ParagonKid said:

The response "the punches ain't so bad' speaks more to your poor understanding of balancing than mine.

 

Says the person who claims a "simple solution" is just to remove the penalty.  Did you even play that suggestion forward?  Because I did.  Removing Rage's crash increases SS's overall damage bonus from an average +133% over time to +160% ALL the time.  What does that do to the set already at the top of the Brute chart for Trapdoor that you yourself just posted?  Oh yeah... it sends it even farther up.  Now it's got no penalty AND it's above all other sets in performance.   

 

Which of us doesn't understand balance again?

 

You know what? Don't even bother answering that.  You just told me you think everyone playing SS right now is an idiot, which means I am wasting my time even bothering talking to you.

[ParagonKid]

32 minutes ago, ZemX said:

 You just told me you think everyone playing SS right now is an idiot

 

More that they're victims of spread misinformation. They could also prefer to roll sets for RP reasons, or are just completing one of every powerset combo, or go in with eyes open but are hoping the set gets fixed one day. I imagine those would be the major reasons, but not all of them.

 

Regarding removing the penalty:

The penalty has 3 components to it. Only one of them affects DPS.

 

Removing the other two, while leaving the damage penalty, would go towards making the set more fair without increasing performance.

 

Alternatively, removing the damage penalty *would* increase performance, AND would make the other two penalty components more justified in remaining.

Edited March 2 by ParagonKid