Kinetic Melee: A Gimmicky Proposal

[JayboH]

3 minutes ago, Rudra said:

So given the scenario you provided, where everyone blasts the exact same target at the exact same time, how would you balance the other character's powers to make up for the fact that they also blasted a defeated target?

I forgot that AV's and GM's don't exist.

[Rudra]

14 minutes ago, JayboH said:

I forgot that AV's and GM's don't exist.

Let's set AVs and GMs aside right now. Say you have a team of 8. And for whatever reason, they all just blasted the same target, maybe it was a Sapper and the team wanted that Sapper gone. So I'm just going to use some numbers, not actual Sapper HP or character damage. Let's say that Sapper had 100 HP. Everyone on the team hits him for 30 damage each. They just inflicted 240 damage on that extremely low on HP Sapper. However, only the first 100 damage matters. Anything beyond that 100 HP is hitting a defeated foe. And even if all 8 attacks, including from the KM, hits at exactly the same time, only the first 4 attacks, which would probably be randomly assigned for hitting at the same time, would not be hitting an already defeated foe. That is the issue I have with the provided scenario. That even if the KM lands the hit at the exact same time as everyone else, half the team just blasted a defeated target in the order in which the game assigned their inflicted damage.

 

Yes, KM applying its damage at or near the end gives a strong impression of it being slow. Yes, if a KM and someone else attack a target at the exact same time using powers with the exact same animation time, the KM will hit after the other character. Usually by around a half second or less if I remember correctly. (It's been a while since I compared the actual time before effect times.) So yes, the set feels slow to lots of players. I'm not arguing that. However, the set is just as fast for its attack animations as other sets. It launches its attacks as fast as other sets. It chains its attacks as fast and fluidly as other sets. So unless you are trying to all blast the same target at the same time for some reason, the slight delay in application time doesn't really come into play. You may notice when you hit an already defeated target more often, but in my experience, the rate of attacking/hitting an already defeated target is no worse than any other set I've played. (Though I haven't played Titan Weapons since Live, so it may be slower. However, it is really irrelevant to the conversation.)

 

Edited March 9 by Rudra
Edited to correct "relevant" to "irrelevant".

[JayboH]

So how would you balance it

[Rudra]

Just now, JayboH said:

So how would you balance it

Again, I wouldn't. Because it is mechanically balanced. You have the same animation times. You have the same ability to chain attacks. The only thing that is different is when the damage is applied in the animation. And if you want to change when the damage is applied in the animation, you have to re-do the animations so the damage would be able to be applied sooner while extending the character's recovery after the hit to maintain the animation length.

[JayboH]

1 minute ago, Rudra said:

Again, I wouldn't. Because it is mechanically balanced. You have the same animation times. You have the same ability to chain attacks. The only thing that is different is when the damage is applied in the animation. And if you want to change when the damage is applied in the animation, you have to re-do the animations so the damage would be able to be applied sooner while extending the character's recovery after the hit to maintain the animation length.

By doing that, you are saying the application of damage would be balanced?  Is the damage itself balanced?  It isn't mechanically balanced first of all, we just confirmed that earlier.  DPA/DPS is affected by the differences you've been talking about, proving it isn't mechanically balanced.  Having it appear at the bottom of the melee list in tests confirms what we've been talking about too.

[Rudra]

30 minutes ago, JayboH said:

DPA/DPS is affected by the differences you've been talking about, proving it isn't mechanically balanced. 

Incorrect. DPA/DPS is not affected by when in the animation the damage is applied. Because you still have the full animation to get through before you can get to your next attack regardless of when that damage is applied. If I use an attack that does 100 damage and has an animation time of 1 second, then it doesn't matter if I do that 100 damage at the start, middle, or end of the animation. For that 1 second animation, I've done 100 damage.

[JayboH]

16 minutes ago, Rudra said:

Incorrect. DPA/DPS is not affected by when in the animation the damage is applied.

I didn't say that.  You already stated that the lockout would continue if applied earlier.  Speeding up KM would however.

[Monos King]

59 minutes ago, Rudra said:

Again, I wouldn't. Because it is mechanically balanced. You have the same animation times. You have the same ability to chain attacks. The only thing that is different is when the damage is applied in the animation. And if you want to change when the damage is applied in the animation, you have to re-do the animations so the damage would be able to be applied sooner while extending the character's recovery after the hit to maintain the animation length.

I want to just...verify that you and @JayboH have actually gotten around to reading this proposal. I go over what you guys are talking about already just enough to validate some of the changes, but I'm not certain either of you are in the loop. 

 

Kinetic Melee is a vicious underperformer, there is no doubt about this. Redoing the animations (or cutting them at least) is a major part of the post above. A general conversation about KM is expected to some extent in this thread, but I do ask that when these comments come up they specify what parts of the post have influenced them to be. Just so that it's on topic as best as possible. I also want to avoid a ceaseless back and forth without contribution from others (those tend to get threads locked). I appreciate the discussion you guys are having though! Thanks.

Edited March 9 by Monos King

[Rudra]

8 minutes ago, Monos King said:

I want to just...verify that you and @JayboH have actually gotten around to reading this proposal. I go over what you guys are talking about already just enough to validate some of the changes, but I'm not certain either of you are in the loop. 

 

Kinetic Melee is a vicious underperformer, there is no doubt about this. Redoing the animations (or cutting them at least) is a major part of the post above. A general conversation about KM is expected to some extent in this thread, but I do ask that when these comments come up they specify what parts of the post have influenced them to be. Just so that it's on topic as best as possible. I also want to avoid a ceaseless back and forth without contribution from others (those tend to get threads locked). I appreciate the discussion you guys are having though! Thanks.

I apologize for derailing your thread. I have no opinion on the OP. My sole reason for being on this thread is to point out that KM is not itself a slower set. That it just seems to be. (Edit: So basically, I'm just responding to @JayboH.)

Edited March 9 by Rudra

[JayboH]

I am just responding to Rudra.  When the set completes objectives slower than any of the other sets in tests and states it isn't a slower set, it raises an eyebrow.  If it applies the same damage at the same time yet locks you to the animation longer than other sets before you can apply another attack, it lowers dps/dpa.

[Rudra]

9 minutes ago, JayboH said:

If it applies the same damage at the same time yet locks you to the animation longer than other sets before you can apply another attack, it lowers dps/dpa.

Except it doesn't. The animation times are consistent with other sets. And you are locked into an attack's animation regardless of whether the damage is applied the instant the animation starts or the animation ends. Nothing is changing there. So the time before effects are applied in the animation does not affect your DPS/DPA. Because you still have to wait out the full animation for every attack you make regardless of what set it is.

[JayboH]

2 minutes ago, Rudra said:

Except it doesn't. The animation times are consistent with other sets. And you are locked into an attack's animation regardless of whether the damage is applied the instant the animation starts or the animation ends. Nothing is changing there. So the time before effects are applied in the animation does not affect your DPS/DPA. Because you still have to wait out the full animation for every attack you make regardless of what set it is.

Oh ok.  This means that if the timing of all the applications of damage, all of the animations were swapped to something else, you are saying the set would still be the bottom of the barrel when it comes to melee sets.  This also means that the damage numbers need to be bumped, because...  otherwise it would complete objectives slower than the other sets even when everything else is identical....  making it a slower set.

[Rudra]

31 minutes ago, JayboH said:

Oh ok.  This means that if the timing of all the applications of damage, all of the animations were swapped to something else, you are saying the set would still be the bottom of the barrel when it comes to melee sets.  This also means that the damage numbers need to be bumped, because...  otherwise it would complete objectives slower than the other sets even when everything else is identical....  making it a slower set.

A set can underperform without being slow. KM is not slow. And the fact you just changed how you were defining it as being slow shows you know it. We're done. I'm tired of derailing this thread.

[JayboH]

2 minutes ago, Rudra said:

A set can underperform without being slow. KM is not slow. And the fact you just changed how you were defining it as being slow shows you know it.

So 'underperforming' can never, ever mean the set is "slow" in your opinion.  When it takes longer to complete objectives, take down a target, whatever - it is not allowed to be labeled slow at those objectives or slow to take down a target according to Rudra.

 

I'll probably decide to ignore this hyper-specific outlier argument and go with the rest of the playerbase instead when it comes to describing the set since the feeling matches the results.

[JayboH]

On 3/7/2024 at 10:31 PM, Monos King said:

 Updated Mechanic: Power Siphon Stacks

• Once above 5 stacks (3 for Stalkers) the following powers receive a 30% cast time decrease while retaining normal damage

 

I'm curious though - does this game require completely different animations to be made for each variance?  Naturally I think of Titan Weapons.  I thought I heard animation software was a big problem for the dev crew but this was a few years ago.

[Monos King]

On 3/7/2024 at 8:31 PM, Monos King said:

Animation Fixes

Going along with the cast time reductions would be some animation changes during their enhanced states. 

Repulsing Torrent has it's animation cut to only deliver the final throw, and not the small charge up

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Burst has it's animation cut to only deliver the final throw, and not the small charge up

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Concentrated Strike has it's animation sped up, or has it's animation cut to only include the final move, skipping most of the wind up.

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Damage Concerns

-Isn't 10 stacks of PS a lot? Scrappers could potentially get a permanent 250% damage bonus!

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Yes...potentially. It will definitely be potent, which is the point. None of the powers are getting an actual damage buff, only speed increases to moderate and high degrees. Kinetic Potential is a limited time toggle, meaning it's ability to benefit from Gaussian's Build Up proc will be very small, a mere 16.67% chance every second. With the power only having a minute uptime and 2 minute recharge, you will only ever have a 66% chance of triggering the proc every 120s, as compared to Build Ups 95% chance of triggering the proc every 90s(base) to 30s!(53% slotting + 112% global recharge). As such, much of the benefit from this mainstay from level 21 onwards is not present. Furthermore, spenders remove PS stacks and thus damage bonus, and Siphoned! is chance based. 

-Is this damage buff enough to help brutes? They already get a lot of damage bonuses

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Quote

I'm curious though - does this game require completely different animations to be made for each variance?  Naturally I think of Titan Weapons.  I thought I heard animation software was a big problem for the dev crew but this was a few years ago.

From what I understand, animation cuts can be done. The powers can definitely be sped up. So the above makes use of those rather than making new animations. I'm not that familiar with the process, however.

[Saiyajinzoningen]

6 hours ago, Monos King said:

 

From what I understand, animation cuts can be done. The powers can definitely be sped up. So the above makes use of those rather than making new animations. I'm not that familiar with the process, however.

 

They sure can

both thunderstrike and total focus also suffered from the "cough" perception of being slow

they had their cast time reduced and other effects modified to balance things out

 

This is gonna earn me a ton of downvotes but

imo single target attacks should have fast cast times 

while aoes should have longer ones

 

 

[Rudra]

9 hours ago, Saiyajinzoningen said:

both thunderstrike and total focus also suffered from the "cough" perception of being slow

they had their cast time reduced and other effects modified to balance things out

Thunderstrike didn't have its effects applied at or near the end of its animation. It was and still is near the middle of the animation. So it wasn't a perception thing, it was simply a slower power. The question with Thunderstrike was if it was fast enough or slow enough for what it did, and the devs agreed with those saying it was too slow.

 

(Edit: Whether an attack is fast enough, strong enough, available enough, or does enough are four related but very different questions.)

Edited March 10 by Rudra

[JayboH]

Do they have to be 'baked' in, or can it do this variance on the fly within the client?

[Rudra]

26 minutes ago, JayboH said:

Do they have to be 'baked' in, or can it do this variance on the fly within the client?

Does what have to be baked in?

[JayboH]

9 hours ago, Rudra said:

Does what have to be baked in?

The variance quoted.

[Rudra]

1 hour ago, JayboH said:

The variance quoted.

I'm not understanding what variance you are talking about.

[Galaxy Brain]

One thing I noticed is the 8 second window for stacks... attacking the same target repeatedly wouldnt give you 10 stacks even with the fastest chain available, this seems like it would be very reliant on the AoEs siphoning to achieve max damage buff. Not to say its a bad thing as that sorta limits the ST potential being too bonkers?

[Monos King]

3 hours ago, Galaxy Brain said:

One thing I noticed is the 8 second window for stacks... attacking the same target repeatedly wouldnt give you 10 stacks even with the fastest chain available, this seems like it would be very reliant on the AoEs siphoning to achieve max damage buff. Not to say its a bad thing as that sorta limits the ST potential being too bonkers?

That's kind of the idea yeah. You'd need to invest in the AoEs if you wanted to be at max stacks + get the insta casts on FB and CS. The lockout on CS is a secondary measure.

 

Although in actual practice only one of the two could be fine, and might feel better as well. 

[JayboH]

10 hours ago, Rudra said:

I'm not understanding what variance you are talking about.

 

What we've been discussing:

 

On 3/7/2024 at 10:31 PM, Monos King said:

 Updated Mechanic: Power Siphon Stacks

• Once above 5 stacks (3 for Stalkers) the following powers receive a 30% cast time decrease while retaining normal damage