Sorcery Powerset

[tiggertoga]

Magic is a fundamental powerset in the role of heroes and villains and everything in between. While changing the color of darkness, fire and energy powerset has been a band aid for the lack of magic/sorcery, players should have the real deal. 
 

i could easily see different variations for different archetypes, like a magical set that mostly focuses on healing, buffs and debuffs..a sorcery set that has magical bolts of energy, spells, transfiguration, creating objects like (properly in gravity). The limit is literally boundless when it comes to magic. I honestly believe that a magic/sorcery or even wand powerset would bring in A LOT of new and old returning players.
 

It can also expand on different stories too for NPCs, TF and trials.  Maybe even pvp zones. “Come to this zone to collect items to complete this spell, while also fighting off others who are looking for the same things. Or protect your spell while it’s cooking from other players” 

 

I would limit heavy restrictions in the zone as far as io’s and enhancements so it’s a fair shot for anyone who wants to participate. 

[Player2]

The idea is that all the existing powersets can be viewed as magic... just like they can be viewed as mutation, science, tech, or natural.  Which is fine.

 

But there are indeed powersets that are Tech specific (Arsenal, Assault Rifle, Devices, Traps, etc) but could be enhanced by persons with other origins... and things like Martial Arts and Street Justice can be viewed as Natural specific with other origins enhancing a character beyond normal "limits."

 

Some people rail against the very idea of Magic specific powersets because of the idea that they would only be good for that one origin, but this is narrowminded nonsense.  All that needs to be done is not call a set specifically "Magic" (like use the term Arcane, which implies magic but does not implicitly mean magic) and offer options in power customization that allow for magic themed animations/effects and generic effects.  This means the set and whatever mechanics go along with it could be utilized by anyone under any theme, but it could also grant those who want the specific magical feel something unique to them.

 

For example, if there were an Arcane Blast set, you could animate the powers and effects based on the Sorcery pool but also supplement it with animations from Kinetic Melee which have a castery-feel to them.  Let there be magical effects on these as the default, but then offer options that use different animations and generic effects for the people that want something different.  As shown by some of the Dark sets, it is entirely possible to offer more than one power effect (standard and Noir) along with animation options.

 

Also... if someone WANTS to make a Technology character that uses Magic-themed animations/effects... or Mutation or Science or Natural... that is also perfectly fine because it's on them to explain why their character fits together the way it does.

[Rudra]

I'm someone that abides by narrowminded nonsense!

 

Here's the thing. Magic is not itself a power set, it is a source of power. What are you using that magic to do? What effects are you manifesting it as? Are you a pyromancer? There are fire sets for ranged, melee, and control. Or you a terramancer? There are the various earth sets. Are you a necromancer? Well, there is a preset MM power set. Are you a golem crafter? Steel is better than rock any day, there is the robotics power set. Are you a demonologist? Demon summoning for the win. How about a druid or a nature wizard? Beast summoning and the nature themed sets. Are you a mentalist binding others to your will? Go with Ninjas, Thugs, or Mercenaries. Are you an arcanist, enchanting objects? There are the various weapon sets. Are you a technomancer? There are the various weapon sets. Are you using magic to fortify your body? There is super strength and invulnerability. Are you using magic to acquire and use skills? There are martial arts and other fighting sets, again including weapons. Are you a generalist? Now you're getting into an area that takes careful consideration of what it means to be a generalist wizard. If you want a D&D style generalist wizard, I and others have already created builds that lets you play a generalist wizard. (Hint: Use a Dominator AT as your base and then dig heavy in the pool powers.) The biggest question to making a character that uses magic in this game is how you choose to present it. There are auras you can use to add a more magic appearance to the character. About the only things missing are staves, wands, and alternate animations.

 

When you get to pool powers, the Sorcery pool gives additional options for a magic using character while giving other origin characters an option to grab obviously magic-themed powers.

 

Edit:

Whoops, I should have given examples from the OP.

Magical set that focuses on heals, buffs, and debuffs? Any support set.

A sorcery set that has magical bolts of energy: What kind of energy? (What is the magic being manifested into? What does that bolt look like?)

Transfiguration? You're going to run into problems with the actual mechanics of that.

Creating objects like (properly in gravity)? The Gravity set creates objects. So does the nature themed sets, devices and traps, almost all the control sets, and more.

 

Edit again: Oh yeah, there are also already missions/arcs that have your character run out to get components for spells. Montague Castanella gives one such arc. So does the contact for the Red Widow arc. There are Croatoa missions that send you to gather spell components as well. And others, I don't want this list to get too long. (Including missions to protect others that are casting spells or to disrupt others casting spells.)

 

Edit yet again: And if you want rock golems, clay golems, crystal golems, or other types, join the rest of us in asking for pet customizations. And if you want staff or wand animations for the various power sets, join the crowd asking for those too.

Edited March 10 by Rudra

[megaericzero]

Welcome, tiggertoga.

 

The multi-element set(s) suggestion crops up quite often on the forums.

 

Personally, I lean more towards Rudra's stance - origins are the "how" for your character's lore, primary/secondary power sets are the "what" it manifests as; better to add more animation/fx options rather than design origin-specific sets.

 

I'm not opposed to multi-element sets; it's just probably better to have them be called Elemental [Blast/Melee/Affinity/etc] and load them with multiple animations to choose from. That way people can theme them after concepts in any origin. For instance: power armor, gadgets, an unstable mutation, an alien that is naturally capable of wielding multiple elements, etc.

[Jiro Ito]

 

I posted this once.

On 3/23/2023 at 4:08 PM, Jiro Ito said:

I have used the Sorcery pool a couple of times, only to end up feeling like I should be focusing on my primary and secondary abilities as they are more effective for that toon's primary role, and ended up dropping it.  However, I really like the theme and animations.  Taking a shot at a Mystic Arts defender primary and corrupter/controller/mastermind secondary.

 

Mystic Arts

 

 Nectanebo's Curse: Ranged, Foe -defense, -speed, -recharge

 Arcane Blast: Ranged, Minor Negative Energy Damage, Foe Knockback.  Cursed enemies take additional negative energy damage.

 Li Tieh Kuai's Blessing: Ranged, Ally, Moderate Heal, +Res(Negative Energy Damage, Disorient, Sleep, Fear, Confusion)

 Joule's Hex:  Foe Hold.  Turns held enemies into random objects, a la Gravity's Propel or /emote alakazamreact.  If only there were a newt model in the game already.  Cursed enemies suffer additional 1 mag hold and suffer additional -speed, -recharge.

 Arcane Ward: Ally, +absorb, +recovery

 Enflame: Toggle, Ranged Friend/Foe, target will leave a fiery trail behind them that will damage enemies.  Unlike pool power, this does not deactivate until Sorcerer deactivates it or runs out of endurance.  Cursed enemies take additional damage.

 Rune of Weakness:  Ranged Location AOE, Foe -resist, -damage, -tohit.  Cursed enemies are stunned.

 Crowley's Incantation: Ranged, Foe -regen, -recovery.  Cursed enemies take negative energy damage over time.

 Runes of Protection: PBAoE, Team +resist all damage, hold, sleep, immob, knockdown, disorient.

 

Enemies who are affected by Nectanebo's Curse are Cursed, and feel additional magical effects.

 

 

 

[biostem]

10 hours ago, Player2 said:

Some people rail against the very idea of Magic specific powersets because of the idea that they would only be good for that one origin, but this is narrowminded nonsense.

What makes an attack "magic", though?  A fireball can be magic.  A lightning bolt can be magic.  A chunk of metal traveling at high speeds could also have been caused to do so by, you guessed it, magic.  The difference here is that seeing someone lift up a hunk of material and cause smaller hunks of material to go flying out at high speed doesn't actually tell you how it's been caused to do so.  *You* may be satisfied to label that as "technology" and go on about your business, and IRL you'd be totally justified in doing so, but not in the world of CoH.  Heck, I'm surprised there aren't entire villain groups that use tech to pretend they're magic users or visa-versa, (though I suppose the Council/5th Column Vampyri and War Wolves are kinda close).  When you get right down to it, it's how the powers are labeled;  Dark powers tell you they're coming from or tapping into some nether realm, but still don't dictate *how* you're accomplishing such a feat...

[Greycat]

16 hours ago, tiggertoga said:

Magic is a fundamental powerset

 

 

Stopping *right* there.

 

Magic is an origin. It's up to you to decide how any specific powerset is "magical."  (And yes, I've seen people using guns, swords, etc and having them be "magic." The Rune rifle customization for beam being a sort of "focusing wand" for instance.)

 

Now, if you want to argue for more magical (or, frankly, "origin themed") power customization for sets? Sure.  All for it. It keeps and even expands the flexibility for people to create their own characters the way they want... far more than a "magic powerset" would.  If you want "boundless limits?" Don't put bounds on it by creating a set like this.

 

As far as the rest? Ehh. Sort of vague and all over the place. As part of an arc, you already go and collect items. I wouldn't argue with MAGI, DATA, etc. being more involved with giving origin-themed missions, honestly, more focused than a newspaper, possibly even with mini-arcs (saying, sy, up to 3 missions per.) We do already know the game itself is semi-aware of origin thanks to different dialog options (something that was starting to be introduced near the end of the live game,) itself good for flavor - I'm not sure how much more that "awareness" can be expanded, though.

[Player2]

You know, we don't NEED guns.  No Assault Rifle, no Beam Rifle, no Dual Pistols... just take those models and animations away and make them generic so that anyone can use the mechanics of the set.  Beam Rifle?  Nah, just use energy blast and assume the object's presence.  Does it matter if it's tech or magic or whatever?  Nah, just leave it up to the players to fill in the blanks on how their power is manifesting and why.  We don't need obvious tech/gadget pieces to explain why the powers exist... and then you can play all the powersets as whatever guns you want.

 

I think we should do the same for the melee weapon options, too.  You don't NEED a war mace to bludgeon someone... just use super strength and pretend you have a mace.  Why do we need Broadsword, Katana/Ninja Blade, AND Dual Blades?  Maybe combine all the weapon sets into one generic smashing/lethal damage powerset and everyone gets the same generic gray shaft that they can pretend is whatever weapon they want.  What?  Only one indistinct weapon? How does that solve for dual blades?  Well, just pretend you have a second one.

[CloudMouse]

Have wanted an arcane/magic/mystic etc powerset with its own mechanic since live. Co-signed!

Edited March 11 by CloudMouse

[Player2]

Saying all the existing powersets CAN be magical because you take the Magic origin is fine.  Fiction is filled with characters who have magical equipment, innate magical power, or even specialized magical spellcasting.  But fiction also has examples of magic users having more flexibility and/or just utilizing raw magic itself as an attack.

 

What we need is an Arcane powerset (or powersets) that not only have that thematic flair like the Sorcery pool, but also its own unique mechanics.  This is why I'll never NOT support this idea... because you can slap all the alternate animations you want on those other powersets, but they aren't inherently more magical... they're still the same old same old with a new coat of paint.  Fire blast will still be fire blast, water blast will still be water blast.  Why did we get Dual Pistols when we already had gun attacks with Assault Rifle?  Because Dual Pistols is not the same thing even though it's still just a lethal damage blast powerset.  It has effects that set it apart from Assault Rifle even though both can also do Fire damage as well as Lethal, they accomplish it differently.  Why do we have multiple weapon sets with so much crossover?  Battle Axe and War Mace were practically the same set all along until recently, with the only thing differentiating them being one does Smashing damage and has mostly blunt weapon models and the other does Lethal damage and has edged weapons.  Did we ever need more than one sword powerset?  Why was Katana different?  For the different sword and animations?  Because it mostly functioned like Broad Sword mechanically.  When we got COV, why did they create Ninja Blade as a powerset instead of Katana with Assassin Strike and Placate?

 

There's always been room for powersets that differ only slightly but have a different look.  But suggest a powerset that highlights Magic rather than just have Magic tacked on as an afterthought, and a small vocal crowd shows up to denounce it and/or suggest the fix of alternate animations for everything else.

 

Tell you what:  I'll accept the alternate animations argument but ONLY if EVERY single powerset gets their own versions with their own unique alternate effects.  So you can't just slap the Arcane Blast animation on everything.  I want to see different magical rune for every type of damage and different effects on the target.  That sounds like it would be a whole lot more work than one powerset, though... doesn't it?

[Rudra]

5 minutes ago, Player2 said:

Saying all the existing powersets CAN be magical because you take the Magic origin is fine.  Fiction is filled with characters who have magical equipment, innate magical power, or even specialized magical spellcasting.  But fiction also has examples of magic users having more flexibility and/or just utilizing raw magic itself as an attack.

 

What we need is an Arcane powerset (or powersets) that not only have that thematic flair like the Sorcery pool, but also its own unique mechanics.  This is why I'll never NOT support this idea... because you can slap all the alternate animations you want on those other powersets, but they aren't inherently more magical... they're still the same old same old with a new coat of paint.  Fire blast will still be fire blast, water blast will still be water blast.  Why did we get Dual Pistols when we already had gun attacks with Assault Rifle?  Because Dual Pistols is not the same thing even though it's still just a lethal damage blast powerset.  It has effects that set it apart from Assault Rifle even though both can also do Fire damage as well as Lethal, they accomplish it differently.  Why do we have multiple weapon sets with so much crossover?  Battle Axe and War Mace were practically the same set all along until recently, with the only thing differentiating them being one does Smashing damage and has mostly blunt weapon models and the other does Lethal damage and has edged weapons.  Did we ever need more than one sword powerset?  Why was Katana different?  For the different sword and animations?  Because it mostly functioned like Broad Sword mechanically.  When we got COV, why did they create Ninja Blade as a powerset instead of Katana with Assassin Strike and Placate?

 

There's always been room for powersets that differ only slightly but have a different look.  But suggest a powerset that highlights Magic rather than just have Magic tacked on as an afterthought, and a small vocal crowd shows up to denounce it and/or suggest the fix of alternate animations for everything else.

 

Tell you what:  I'll accept the alternate animations argument but ONLY if EVERY single powerset gets their own versions with their own unique alternate effects.  So you can't just slap the Arcane Blast animation on everything.  I want to see different magical rune for every type of damage and different effects on the target.  That sounds like it would be a whole lot more work than one powerset, though... doesn't it?

In every portrayal of magic, magic is a force that is shaped by the user to achieve some effect. Whether in comic books, anime/cartoons, movies, novels, or anything else, magic is itself not a power effect, but the power source. Even when blasting a target with pure, raw magic power, it is a shaped bolt/blast of energy. It is no different than if someone were to blast the same target with a generic energy bolt/blast, except that the source of the bolt/blast is magic as opposed to some technological device utilizing an unstated energy type, a chemical reaction causing an unstated energy type, a racial ability to channel an unstated energy type, or a mutant power utilizing an unstated energy type. It is just a bolt/blast of energy where the type of energy has been defined as magic energy. It may have a runic circle appear as it is manifested, it may require specific gestures and vocal intonations to make it manifest, it may require the use of a rune stone, wand, or staff to manifest, or it may not require any special focus or effect; but it is still just a bolt/blast of energy.

 

Every use of magic can be broken down into specific effects. It is no different than any other source of power.

[PeregrineFalcon]

I think everyone would be far better off if the developers were just able to add wand and "magic runes in the air" combat auras.

 

That way people who want their Energy Blast to be magical can choose either of those combat auras and it looks like they're "spell casting" their attacks. Problem solved without the devs having to overhaul (and possibly adding more unwanted combo systems to) every blast set.

.

Edited March 11 by PeregrineFalcon
grammar hard

[Player2]

1 minute ago, Rudra said:

In every portrayal of magic, magic is a force that is shaped by the user to achieve some effect. Whether in comic books, anime/cartoons, movies, novels, or anything else, magic is itself not a power effect, but the power source. Even when blasting a target with pure, raw magic power, it is a shaped bolt/blast of energy. It is no different than if someone were to blast the same target with a generic energy bolt/blast, except that the source of the bolt/blast is magic as opposed to some technological device utilizing an unstated energy type, a chemical reaction causing an unstated energy type, a racial ability to channel an unstated energy type, or a mutant power utilizing an unstated energy type. It is just a bolt/blast of energy where the type of energy has been defined as magic energy. It may have a runic circle appear as it is manifested, it may require specific gestures and vocal intonations to make it manifest, it may require the use of a rune stone, wand, or staff to manifest, or it may not require any special focus or effect; but it is still just a bolt/blast of energy.

 

Every use of magic can be broken down into specific effects. It is no different than any other source of power.

As always, you are just wrong and your words to be dismissed and ignored.  I'd ignore you outright, but that would deprive me of giving you the occasional thumbs down.

[Player2]

1 minute ago, PeregrineFalcon said:

I think everyone would be far better off if the developers were just able to add wand and "magic runes in the air" combat auras.

 

That way people who want their Energy Blast to be magical can choose either of those combat auras and it looks like they're "spell casting" their attacks. Problem solved without the devs having to overhaul (and possibly adding more unwanted combo systems to) every blast set.

.

Not unless... it's for every powerset and looks different for each and every one.  Otherwise I reject your bandaid "fix."

[Rudra]

4 minutes ago, PeregrineFalcon said:

I think everyone would be far better off if the developers were just able to add wand and "magic runes in the air" combat auras.

 

That way people who want their Energy Blast to be magical can choose either of those combat auras and it looks like they're "spell casting" their attacks. Problem solved without the devs having to overhaul (and possibly adding more unwanted combo systems to) every blast set.

.

Something like this?

 

[PeregrineFalcon]

1 minute ago, Player2 said:

Not unless... it's for every powerset and looks different for each and every one.  Otherwise I reject your bandaid "fix."

Yeah, what are the odds that this small developer team can rent an animation studio, do some motion capture, and use that to create your dozens of new animations magical effects and all?

[Player2]

Just now, Rudra said:

Something like this?

 

Absolutely terrible.

[Player2]

Just now, PeregrineFalcon said:

Yeah, what are the odds that this small developer team can rent an animation studio, do some motion capture, and use that to create your dozens of new animations magical effects and all?

Exactly.  Putting together one powerset would be easier than trying to make all the others look magical but distinct.  But since you don't actually care, you're happy to sign on for the lamest of "solutions" that won't actually satisfy the people who want a more magical vibe.  Why even bother suggesting it??

[Rudra]

10 minutes ago, Player2 said:

As always, you are just wrong and your words to be dismissed and ignored.  I'd ignore you outright, but that would deprive me of giving you the occasional thumbs down.

I do always get a kick out of the 'nuh uh' responses. 😄

[Player2]

Just now, Rudra said:

I do always get a kick out of the 'nuh uh' responses. 😄

No you don't...  because you say so and you are always wrong.

[PeregrineFalcon]

1 minute ago, Player2 said:

But since you don't actually care...

Since you're psychic now can you please tell me what next weeks lottery numbers will be? I mean you are psychic right? That's how you know that I don't care, right? I mean, you wouldn't just make shit up, so you must be psychic.

 

3 minutes ago, Player2 said:

Why even bother suggesting it??

Because simply adding in "holding wand" and "magic runes in air" combat auras is far less work, far more likely to be within the capabilities of this development team, and allows magic origin "spell casters" to be anything from an Empathy Defender to a Fire Blaster simply by picking one of those auras.

[Rudra]

Just now, Player2 said:

No you don't...  because you say so and you are always wrong.

Oh, so you're back on this again. Then I guess you should hurry back to the other threads where you agreed with me and remove those responses.

[Player2]

Just now, Rudra said:

Oh, so you're back on this again. Then I guess you should hurry back to the other threads where you agreed with me and remove those responses.

Again?  What part of "always" did you misunderstand?

[Player2]

1 minute ago, Rudra said:

I guess you should hurry back to the other threads where you agreed with me and remove those responses.

I can choose to be wrong occasionally to support something that I might agree with.

[Rudra]

Anyway, setting petty tantrums aside, @PeregrineFalcon makes a good point. Adding more auras that players can apply to their characters for various magic effects would help players better portray their magic characters.

 

Edited March 11 by Rudra
Edited to remove extra period.