New Camera Controls really are a godsend for me.

[Sunsette]

I like to move around a lot in fights, kiting, etc. HC travel powers have been a huge help on this, so have powexec_location macros for teleports, but the camera not fighting me every time I use an ability is really transformative for my battlefield awareness when using those abilities. So is the fact that I don't need to spend a bind to reset my camera position when I start moving in a hectic situation -- I generally need the camera to be behind me while I'm moving so I can see where I'm going.

 

I know there's been some understandable grief over some glitches and things with people who hadn't gotten used to saving profiles to keep the controls as they were, but this change has been huge for me and I'm really glad it was put in.

[Player2]

Personally, I dislike having to switch back to the classic mode.

 

I don't mind them adding new features to the game, but setting them as the default for new characters going forward is annoying as hell.

[Sunsette]

13 minutes ago, Player2 said:

I don't mind them adding new features to the game, but setting them as the default for new characters going forward is annoying as hell.

 

If you save your options to file / save your options to default file, they become the default for all of your new characters going forward.

 

Save Options to File covers General and Controls

 

This covers keybinds

 

Graphics and Audio are always cross-character

 

This covers your channels and chat tabs and dialogue color

 

This covers your window placement

 

 

I can therefore use my same settings on every character without need for further adjustment aside from those characters which need custom binds. It should ideally be explained and organized a bit better than it is.

Edited March 12 by Sunsette

[Player2]

Yeah, and if they left Classic as the standard and offered the new camera controls as an option, then you and anyone else could do the same to set the new features as your default.

 

I am just a hair away from saying that I'd rather they make no changes than to make changes the new default.  No matter how intuitive they might seem or how much some people might like them... those are the minority when first introduced.  If over time the new way proves to be more popular, then maybe make it the default.  But changing things up like that just to show off the new features makes me not appreciate them at all and wish they'd not changed anything.

[Sunsette]

6 minutes ago, Player2 said:

Yeah, and if they left Classic as the standard and offered the new camera controls as an option, then you and anyone else could do the same to set the new features as your default.

 

It's unfortunate and I sympathize with the unease at the feature rollout for existing characters -- I had to redo my binds significantly in order to get the transition to take because I use very unusual bindings due to some hand conditions (you may notice my default tray is very strange -- as an aside, being able to SEE the keys I have bound to things really does help, it's nice). I've given directions on how to reset control options to how they used to be for many people at this point, so clearly there was a gap in execution there. I don't have any specific suggestions as to how it might have been done better because I don't understand any of the mechanics involved and I'm sure it was an undertaking. 

 

But for new players, I think it's the right choice; CoH's legacy camera controls are archaic and pretty unintuitive against the rest of the genre.

Edited March 12 by Sunsette

[KITANYA]

6 hours ago, Sunsette said:

I like to move around a lot in fights, kiting, etc. HC travel powers have been a huge help on this, so have powexec_location macros for teleports, but the camera not fighting me every time I use an ability is really transformative for my battlefield awareness when using those abilities. So is the fact that I don't need to spend a bind to reset my camera position when I start moving in a hectic situation -- I generally need the camera to be behind me while I'm moving so I can see where I'm going.

 

I know there's been some understandable grief over some glitches and things with people who hadn't gotten used to saving profiles to keep the controls as they were, but this change has been huge for me and I'm really glad it was put in.

 

What is the new Camera controls and how do i get to them?

[tidge]

Are the new camera controls the reason my character has started turning 180° when I execute a command like this?

 

/macro_image "FortunataTraining_TelekineticBlast"   "Back" "powexec_location Back:25 Shadow Step$$powexec_location Back:25 Black Dwarf Step"

 

Previously, this sort of macro would leave me facing the area I just teleported from, allowing for quick ranged attacks (e.g. cones)

[Sunsette]

4 hours ago, KITANYA said:

What is the new Camera controls and how do i get to them?

 

It's a combination of Enable Free Camera (Menu -> Options -> Controls) and the Modern profile (Menu -> Options -> Keymapping). No screenshots right now, sorry, away from computer. Be advised that activating the modern profile will change the binds associated with left mouse click, middle mouse click, right mouse click (I think), left+right mouse click (I think), as well as Alt2Tray (the topmost button bar when the main button bar has been fully expanded).

 

2 hours ago, tidge said:

Are the new camera controls the reason my character has started turning 180° when I execute a command like this?

 

Possssibly? I haven't used back as a powexec location. I will test later. 

 

EDIT: @tidge while the options update may have been responsible due to the camera rework (and seems like the obvious culprit!) I can't verify it at this time -- when I revert controls to pre-Page 7 settings, I still get the behavior where the character changes facing after using a back powexec_location teleport. I was hoping that maybe I could fiddle with it by changing the direction to forward and expressing the distance in negative units, but negative units seem to just confuse the macro. Worth making a suggestion about, maybe?

Edited March 12 by Sunsette

[Shenanigunner]

None of these are new, just changes to the defaults. And from the blowback in Help etc., most users hate the auto return-to-center. (I've tried it a few times over the years and after a while find it more annoying than useful.)

 

But it's sure a good thing we have all these "Classic" and "Modern" and "Original Recipe" and "Dev's Choice" menu options to select things from.

[Sunsette]

23 minutes ago, Shenanigunner said:

None of these are new, just changes to the defaults.

 

Much of this was, but if there was a way to disable the tank controls (where Forward/Back/Left/Right reacted to where your character was facing as opposed to the camera) before, I was not aware of it. I also believe the click-drag handling was improved for non-interference with UI elements.

 

Response in Help is not going to be indicative of the effectiveness of the decision because it's a change primarily targeted at new players, although I certainly agree that the rollout to existing players was not ideal. 

 

This topic is exhausting, and it makes me sorry to have been happy about something. I prefaced with sympathy for the people who were unhappy for a reason, because I don't think the complaints are unreasonable, but jeez.

Edited March 12 by Sunsette

[Shenanigunner]

3 minutes ago, Sunsette said:

This topic is exhausting, and it makes me sorry to have been happy about something. I prefaced with sympathy for the people who were unhappy for a reason, because I don't think the complaints are unreasonable, but jeez.

 

My viewpoint is that CoX has an absolutely vast number of ways to customize the UI, and the number of players who are even aware of this is far too small. Very little has been changed or expanded in this respect since the launch of HC; for the most part, it's just Devs changing defaults or (as in P7) simply remapping a few binds to different commands. (The bind to mouse_chord, both mouse keys at once, being the most notable; that may well be the source of most of the "change to the way the camera and alt interact" but uses commands that go back to OG launch.

 

What puts the sting in this gap between capability and action is that at one end is the quite-frequent complaint along the lines of "Shit, I hate how ________ works. I wish the Devs would fix that" — for something easily changeable/moddable/improvable with some bind tweaks. And at the other end is far, far too many times of suggesting roads to improvement, and getting (usually in chat, sometimes in here) obnoxious/abrasive/clueless responses about how they don't have time to muck around with those things, they have a game to play. (Let's not even include the rising tide of responses to suggestions that solutions better than a default or one canned, chat-passed bind are within player grasp, only to be dismissed with "Oh, just google it" or "If he had time to read a book, he wouldn't be asking in here."

 

It's not either one of those... it's the persistent combination.

 

And then the Devs make a few truly minor, tepid changes — just to binds — and for most it's a friggin' miracle.

 

And then bury the changes behind incomplete, often impenetrable menus with option labels that mean less than nothing... just perpetuating the whole cycle.

 

So, yeah, exhausting.

[Sunsette]

I left the game for multiple years in part because I had chaotic life circumstances, but also in part because I disagreed with what looked to be dev direction in a number of ways. I came back when I decided I could live with the direction of things that weren't going to change and just ignore them so I could help out my friends who got into the game for the first time.

 

So yes, I get the frustration.

 

Which is also why I wanted to be openly positive about something that was actually a big deal to me and my attempts to support my friends. I could write up three (more) paragraphs to explain why I find these changes helpful, but I don't think it's going to do anything to change the fact that you're angry, and right now I'm frustrated and don't have the spoons for this.

Edited March 12 by Sunsette

[Riverdusk]

I haven't even noticed any change.  I guess my loadout was saved how I liked it already and hasn't been overwritten with anything new.  Which I appreciate.

 

Edit: Take that back a little, but not really camera related.  I've had to completely redo my monitored combat attributes for a lot of my old characters.  Just a a slight annoyance, but not the first time.  It seems to happen often when there's a big patch.

Edited March 12 by Riverdusk

[StarkWhite]

Every time someone raises a fuss over "OMG Thing changed!" I have to wonder if they *really* think that if Paragon had kept developing this game for all these years, they wouldn't have modernized it as the gaming ecosystem evolved. And probably been a LOT less nice about giving options to keep doing things the old way. It certainly wasn't the same at shutdown as it was in 2004.

 

This isn't a relic preserved in amber like a museum piece. It's a living game. 

[Sovera]

I had to redo all my keybinds for unrelated reasons (I changed a keybind who then refused to be changed back no matter the number of times I did it, clicked 'apply', saved the keybind file, logged off, etc, so eventually had to hit the 'reset keybinds' which fixed it) and it was a pain, but that said it was a one time thing and after saving the keybinds they are now available for new alts or old characters I can hit 'load keybinds'.

[Shenanigunner]

3 hours ago, Sunsette said:

Which is also why I wanted to be openly positive about something that was actually a big deal to me and my attempts to support my friends. I could write up three (more) paragraphs to explain why I find these changes helpful, but I don't think it's going to do anything to change the fact that you're angry, and right now I'm frustrated and don't have the spoons for this.

 

This is nothing personal towards you, your post or your happiness with the change. If there's any intersecting point, it's that (barring an internal fix that does change dragging across UI elements), all of the "new" commands have been here all along, simply waiting for any one user to find and implement them. That's one of my big gripes with the original bind set (and, despite hoopla, the micro-differences between the three "profiles") — a lot of it is hugely outmoded and about a 0.5-for-10 on the UI/UX design and usability scale, but it's fiercely defended by some large set of players and the idea of tweaking it is dismissed by some other contingent too busy overanalyzing Incarnate builds to fix UI faults that have hampered them since their first alt.

 

Glad you have an improvement; my observation is still that most users dislike the switch to auto-center, But as it's easily set/changed either way, it's no big deal. I'm just exhaust-a-gated that so many think it's a new feature. "Captain Taggart... has saved us again!"

[Shenanigunner]

25 minutes ago, Sovera said:

I had to redo all my keybinds for unrelated reasons (I changed a keybind who then refused to be changed back no matter the number of times I did it, clicked 'apply', saved the keybind file, logged off, etc, so eventually had to hit the 'reset keybinds' which fixed it) and it was a pain, but that said it was a one time thing and after saving the keybinds they are now available for new alts or old characters I can hit 'load keybinds'.

 

I'm not surprised you ran into a glitch with an existing bind set. A few changes were made to existing slash commands, but not many; it was more likely a change to a default bind that created an irresolvable problem with your existing set.

 

Of course, it's now that much more difficult to troubleshoot since default binds are no longer saved with a bindfile. So you have to guess at what key assignments and changes might affect your custom ones. With no better map than the irregular one of the keybind menu, which uses freeform language to describe options and does not include all of the default assignments. But I've been sternly informed this is of no consequence to any user, so there's that.

[PeregrineFalcon]

It would sure be helpful if there were a tool tip or something in game that explained the various versions (Classic, Modern, Extra Crispy, Etc.) and how they differ from one another.

 

At this point I have no idea which set of keybinds to use for a new character.

[Shenanigunner]

6 minutes ago, PeregrineFalcon said:

At this point I have no idea which set of keybinds to use for a new character.

 

I think you want 'Classic,' which is the set used from about Issue 2 or 3 through last month. 'Modern' unaccountably uses the arrow keys for WASD while un-defining the actual WASD keys; I'd be curious to hear who uses the arrow keys but not the traditional ones. Someone Modern, I guess.

 

Why the few differences of Issue1 were preserved as another profile is beyond my ken, or barbie.

 

You will, of course, be depending on what you can infer from the menu settings for each, and guessing about the other keybinds not listed there. In some cases, even knowing that key [KEY] is assigned to game function [DO-THIS] does not necessarily clue you to the actual command, argument or even command string (as mouse_chord now uses; wade through the patch notes for details).

 

But I'm sure it's all improvements in there.

[TheMoneyMaker]

Did not like

[Tiresias]

As someone who recently returned, I LOVE the change. The camera functions like you would expect it to from playing other tab-target MMOs.

 

...And that's probably why the change was made: to accommodate new and returning players. The vast majority of people will find camera "snapback" disorienting, and for your character to not move in the direction the camera is pointing when you press "W" to be annoying -- just like I did before the recent change.

[Shenanigunner]

9 minutes ago, Tiresias said:

As someone who recently returned, I LOVE the change. The camera functions like you would expect it to from playing other tab-target MMOs.

 

...And that's probably why the change was made: to accommodate new and returning players. The vast majority of people will find camera "snapback" disorienting, and for your character to not move in the direction the camera is pointing when you press "W" to be annoying -- just like I did before the recent change.

 

I'm honestly having a little trouble with this concept (from multiple discussions). Maybe I've run customized binds so long I am out of touch with what more generic-setup players use, but I don't think I've ever had an alt move obliquely to the camera. If I pivot the camera, any movement key swings the alt to move in a manner corresponding to camera==forward.

 

Can someone walk (heh) me through how camera+alt view did not act in this way prior to the miracle that is P7?

 

The only bind or default change I am aware of is that mousechord (both keys at once) was switched from the wonky original command mouse_forward to a combination +forward and cam_turn that overcame the tendency of THAT run command to do weird things. (That and the default to auto-center after mouse lookaround, which seems to be what most of this thread is about.)

 

If there's a description in the patch notes, a quote or pointer is good. I've been through them for my purposes and while most changes are good, a lot of detail is buried in serial body text across multiple installments.

[Sunsette]

4 minutes ago, Shenanigunner said:

Can someone walk (heh) me through how camera+alt view did not act in this way prior to the miracle that is P7?

 

I was mostly running default options after I came back at the end of January and when I pressed WASD, the character moved relative to the character's position rather than the camera's position, to the point where I needed a bind set to reset the camera so that I didn't have this behavior occur. This is a different computer from that I last played the game on, and I started new characters that inherited nothing from the previous characters.

Edited March 13 by Sunsette

[Shenanigunner]

5 minutes ago, Sunsette said:

 

I was mostly running default options after I came back at the end of January and when I pressed WASD, the character moved relative to the character's position rather than the camera's position, to the point where I needed a bind set to reset the camera so that I didn't have this behavior occur. This is a different computer from that I last played the game on, and I started new characters that inherited nothing from the previous characters.

 

Huh. I've never encountered that behavior and in (tediously) comparing the bind profiles, can't figure out what would have controlled/caused it. the WASD assignments are the same as always in Classic and (other than using a walking bind) I've never changed the four binds from vanilla/default.

 

That is, in something like 15 years of play, I can't recall any behavior but camera==forward, and with an extensive knowledge of options and keybinds, I can't put a finger (W or any other) on the where/why of this difference.

[Shenanigunner]

Okay, found it; I'd overlooked it because it seemed to be irrelevant:

 

First one is what everyone is cheering about, and I agree... except that my UI has never worked in any other way, and resetting a junk alt to default/Classic mode still does exactly the same, turns the alt to move in camera-view mode. All binds also seem to be the same.

 

I can only conclude that the change in the first line is an actual, internal-command change that somehow I already had enabled for... years.