Make Mastermind Henchmen inherit your stealth values while in passive mode.

[Mystoc]

Right now speed TF/SFs are all the rage and popular cause many people have jobs and not a lot time to play (or just cause we like speed)

 

As a result mastermind really never really get to use their henchmen in these cause everyone runs to the end or from objective to objective. its faster to just do a dismiss all command then have your henchmen run through a group or 2 then die and agro everything. and then you when do get the end you have a 15+ seconds summoning rebuffing session and then the team just moves on the next objective and it repeats.. most missions its faster to just not use the pets and use just your secondary buffs to help support the team..

 

It undeniable that is game is to fast for Masterminds to fully show their true power, so I propose a way to keep henchman alive so you can follow the teams speed without having to be resummoning them again and again.. this would make investing in stealth as mastermind more appealing too, cause what good is a stealthy leader with any followers backing them up?

 

lore wise it makes perfect sense too, you would look to your boss and copy how stealthy they are being when told to do be quiet and not fight right??

Edited March 19 by Mystoc

[Player2]

Masterminds are terrible.  No, not an agreement that they need any kind of buff to make them better.  I mean they're like terrible people...  showing up to teams like that one friend who shows up at gatherings with a posse of additional friends that weren't invited.  Jerks.

[Mystoc]

35 minutes ago, Player2 said:

Masterminds are terrible.  No, not an agreement that they need any kind of buff to make them better.  I mean they're like terrible people...  showing up to teams like that one friend who shows up at gatherings with a posse of additional friends that weren't invited.  Jerks.

my friends would have stealth after this change so pretend they aren't there!

[Player2]

Unless you're my enemy, I can see through your stealth, which means I will see through your friends' stealth too, so I can't ignore them.

 

And if you are my enemy, then I definitely do not want to pretend they aren't there.  I want to take advantage of the opportunity to slap them around.

[Saiyajinzoningen]

actually you can do this already

simply grab grant invis from the stealth power pool

it also gives them some extra def which is always nice for those squishy henchies

[Mystoc]

21 minutes ago, Saiyajinzoningen said:

actually you can do this already

simply grab grant invis from the stealth power pool

it also gives them some extra def which is always nice for those squishy henchies

you can do it already but I would not call that easy or simple mastermind 's are very strapped for power pools slots. you want hasten, leadership and most likely group fly if you want pets keeping up with you outside of missions

 

and then you want provoke or medicine to pick from depending on what your secondary is and if it has healing,

 

and picking a buff that needs to be used every 2 mins is not everyone's playstyle it would be very likely this stealth buff wears off mid movement between mobs and then all your pets are dead so you would need to use this buff way more often then just 2 mins.

 

some mastermind buffing secondary's toggles give stealth already or using Super Speed with a stealth IO works. Being able to transfer your stealth over to passive henchmen is much more feasible for all these reasons.

Edited March 19 by Mystoc

[Saiyajinzoningen]

Agree to disagree

Not a single of my MM's have hasten (in fact i rarely take that power at all)

I have never not once ever taken the medicine pool and I cant stress this enough, e v e r.

so I cant say I have the issue you are speaking of.

life is about choices

I cant tell you how many hours I've spent in Mid's (enjoyably)

tweaking a build until it feels right

the game already offers you the option to turn teammates invisible

it has low end cost, decent length and a bonus to defense

if this was a

"make grant invis a pbaoe so I can buff my whole team at once" request

that would be a convenient QOL change I could understand

[Player2]

We need an Illusionary Defense support power set for defenders, corruptors, controllers, and masterminds.

 

It could have an Only Affecting Self invisibility power with high defense similar to Force Field's personal force field power, and a Group Invisibility buff like Illusion does.

 

Then add in some similar but different powers like Blind and Flash but make them -ToHit debuffs instead of holds.  That's four powers already...

 

Spectral Heal...  your allies gain health back but then lose some of that over time (like a reverse Spectral Wounds).  The initial big heal could help keep someone alive until their natural regen rate helps get them back to a safe point when some of the healing fades.

 

An Illusionary Armor buff that provides an Absorb bonus as some of opponents' damage simply misses the mark because their aim is hitting more at the illusion around/near the buffed target than hitting the target itself.

 

Tier 9 could have a spectral illusion pet similar to Illusion Control's Spectral Terror but make it smaller and mobile, and instead of causing fear give it a strong taunt aura because a good defense is making your enemies want to attack something other than you (or your allies).

 

There's 7 powers... just need 2 more illusion themed support powers and you've got yourself a new set that's complementary for an existing set and has potential in other combinations.

 

Illusion/Illusion Controllers, for sure... but Demon/Illusion Masterminds could be fun... Storm/Illusion Corruptor... Illusion/Psychic Defender, yes please!  Lots of potential.

[Rudra]

2 hours ago, Mystoc said:

you want hasten

Not this again. None of my characters have Hasten. It isn't needed for anything. Especially not on any of my MMs.

 

2 hours ago, Mystoc said:

and most likely group fly if you want pets keeping up with you outside of missions

MM pets automatically teleport to them if the MM gets too far away. Group Fly not not needed. Especially as slow as it is.

 

2 hours ago, Mystoc said:

and then you want provoke

You do you.

 

2 hours ago, Mystoc said:

and picking a buff that needs to be used every 2 mins is not everyone's playstyle it would be very likely this stealth buff wears off mid movement between mobs and then all your pets are dead so you would need to use this buff way more often then just 2 mins.

MMs have access to Arctic Fog from Cold Domination and Shadow Fall from Dark Miasma. Grant Invisibility has a 3 second recharge out of the box with a 2 minute duration, and stacks with Arctic Fog and Cold Domination. Setting pets to Passive with Grant Invisibility will let them run past a lot of opposition.

 

You can also use Teleport Target to call minions to you while they stand fast with the Stay command, though you have to use the Stay command again to keep them from running back. If you use the Stay command and then get to far from your minions, they still teleport to you, but this time they don't run back. Though it does very much annoy me that the ninja pets don't have their own stealth except for the jounin.

[Mystoc]

2 hours ago, Rudra said:

Not this again. None of my characters have Hasten. It isn't needed for anything. Especially not on any of my MMs.

 

I mercs so getting serum back fast is important for damage yes I need hasten, with hasten serum comes back 14 seconds faster

I am not asking for henchman to be invisible with 0 investment just alternatives

 

2 hours ago, Rudra said:

 

MM pets automatically teleport to them if the MM gets too far away. Group Fly not not needed. Especially as slow as it is.

 

if they are ranged like mercs group fly makes them function way better so yeah group fly makes most pet AI function way better and not act like buffons.

 

2 hours ago, Rudra said:

 

You do you.

 

MMs have access to Arctic Fog from Cold Domination and Shadow Fall from Dark Miasma. Grant Invisibility has a 3 second recharge out of the box with a 2 minute duration, and stacks with Arctic Fog and Cold Domination. Setting pets to Passive with Grant Invisibility will let them run past a lot of opposition.

 

so your solution to a very specific MM problem is make them need yet another power pool? and grant invis is not AOE so you have click do 12 clicks every 2 minutes that is just not viable or engaging gameplay.

 

I am not asking for pet invis with out investment you still need to invest in your own character to get stealth.

 

 

2 hours ago, Rudra said:

 

You can also use Teleport Target to call minions to you while they stand fast with the Stay command, though you have to use the Stay command again to keep them from running back. If you use the Stay command and then get to far from your minions, they still teleport to you, but this time they don't run back. Though it does very much annoy me that the ninja pets don't have their own stealth except for the jounin.

 

yeah but like you said get to far away and they teleport to if you put them on stay and that can happen while running through a mob pack equaling all pets die so "stay" is not reliable and even it did work if I was gonna use teleport target 6 times I may as just click grant invis 6 times

Edited March 19 by Mystoc

[biostem]

They've significantly reduced the recharge time on the minion summon powers.  Dismiss your pets, stealth to wherever you need to go, then resummon them.  Alternatively, you can take grant invisibility and conceal said minions.

[biostem]

1 minute ago, Mystoc said:

yes I need hasten

No, you WANT hasten.

 

2 minutes ago, Mystoc said:

that just not viable or engaging gameplay.

You also have 6 sources of damage that don't require your end and can continue to deal damage whether you are mezzed or not.  It's a tradeoff for having those completely obedient and expendable minions.

 

 

[Monos King]

Stealth isn't something that's mandatory for play, and we shouldn't balance around the abberance that is speed running. So I wouldn't say this is something that I would want that badly. But I do like the idea of giving passive something similar to this, even like lowering their threat level or increasing regen.

 

I'll also note that having stealth is a unique feature of several MM pets already, and all pets just inheriting that from the user would take away from that quirk as well. 

Edited March 19 by Monos King

[Rudra]

13 minutes ago, Mystoc said:

so your solution to a very specific MM problem is make them need yet another power pool? and grant invis is not AOE so you have click do 12 clicks every 2 minutes that just not viable or engaging gameplay.

Power pools exist to give players options to make their characters work the way they want. And while Grant Invisibility is not an AoE, it takes 6 clicks, not 12, to make your pets invisible. And since it lasts 2 minutes, if you are just trying to get through an area, say to keep up with a speed running team, those 2 minutes are more than long enough to get to the next objective. There are already ways to get your pets to stealth maps. I do so routinely, even on MM characters that lack group stealth like Arctic Fog, Shadowfall, or Steamy Mist. (Edit: I see where you get 12 from now. However, since it is a buff and the MM should be buffing his/her/their/its pets, I still don't see the problem.)

 

13 minutes ago, Mystoc said:

I am not asking for pet invis with out investment you still need to invest in your own character to get stealth.

An MM running around with pets is the same as a MM or any other character running around on a team. Sure, your MM invested in personal stealth, but the rest of the team didn't. So if you want the rest of the team to be stealthy and they didn't build stealth into their characters, you need to figure out how to be stealthy. Now, if we could customize our pet powers to include some form of stealth in their builds? Then it would make more sense. However, we can't, so just like when we team with non-stealth player characters, we as stealthy MMs need to find a way to get our non-stealthy pets to sneak. (Though again, I believe that at least the genin from ninjas should also have stealth. Just not the improved damage from stealth the jounin enjoy. They're fricking ninjas for crying out loud.)

Edited March 19 by Rudra

[Mystoc]

4 minutes ago, biostem said:

No, you WANT hasten.

then nothing is a need in this game that fact you want to play word police is funny though, with hasten my sreum buff is 4 seconds off being perma it is the best pet buff in the game by far having it sooner is huge.

4 minutes ago, biostem said:

 

You also have 6 sources of damage that don't require your end and can continue to deal damage whether you are mezzed or not.  It's a tradeoff for having those completely obedient and expendable minions.

 

 

that is such a bad argument why did they change support powerset single target buffs for MM to be AoE then? Cleary MM has the time to be using them all in Combat the pets do all the fighting right?

 

grant invis is from a utility power useable by all it not just designed for MMs. so for MM its fair having to click 12 times but if any other archetype wants use it its just a badly designed power pool buff?

[Rudra]

3 minutes ago, Mystoc said:

that is such a bad argument why did they change support powerset single target buffs for MM to be AoE then? Cleary MM has the time to be using them all in Combat the pets do all the fighting right?

 

grant invis is from a utility power useable by all it not just designed for MMs.

You basically answered your own question. MM buffs were made AoE, like other support character buffs, to simplify the support AT's lives. Grant Invisibility is not a support AT power from a Support AT power set, it is a pool power. So it is single target. However, it does serve the purpose of making non-stealthy characters, like MM pets, stealthy.

[biostem]

2 minutes ago, Mystoc said:

then nothing is a need in this game that fact you want to play word police is funny though, with hasten my sreum buff is 4 seconds off being perma it is the best pet buff in the game by far having it sooner is huge.

Who's playing word games?  You were clearly being hyperbolic.  Stop being so dramatic and just state that you want something instead.

 

3 minutes ago, Mystoc said:

that is such a bad argument why did they change support powerset single target buffs for MM to be AoE then? Cleary MM has the time to be using them all in Combat the pets do all the fighting right?

But they didn't change all support powers to be AoE, did they?

 

4 minutes ago, Mystoc said:

grant invis is from a utility power useable by all it not just designed for MMs. so for MM its fair having to click 12 times but if any other archetype wants use it its just a badly designed power pool buff?

Fair?  MMs get 6 or more pets that they can quickly resummon.  Let me pour out some for all the clicks you have to do.  Must be a tough life.  Take a secondary with a stealth AoE if it's so important to you.

[Mystoc]

19 minutes ago, Rudra said:

Power pools exist to give players options to make their characters work the way they want. And while Grant Invisibility is not an AoE, it takes 6 clicks, not 12, to make your pets invisible. And since it lasts 2 minutes, if you are just trying to get through an area, say to keep up with a speed running team, those 2 minutes are more than long enough to get to the next objective. There are already ways to get your pets to stealth maps. I do so routinely, even on MM characters that lack group stealth like Arctic Fog, Shadowfall, or Steamy Mist. (Edit: I see where you get 12 from now. However, since it is a buff and the MM should be buffing his/her/their/its pets, I still don't see the problem.)

it takes 12 clicks you seemed to have realized what I meant but I will explain for others reading.

 

click grant invis click next henchmen repeat this 6 times total 6x2

19 minutes ago, Rudra said:

 

An MM running around with pets is the same as a MM or any other character running around on a team. Sure, your MM invested in personal stealth, but the rest of the team didn't. So if you want the rest of the team to be stealthy and they didn't build stealth into their characters, you need to figure out how to be stealthy. Now, if we could customize our pet powers to include some form of stealth in their builds? Then it would make more sense. However, we can't, so just like when we team with non-stealth player characters, we as stealthy MMs need to find a way to get our non-stealthy pets to sneak. (Though again, I believe that at least the genin from ninjas should also have stealth. Just not the improved damage from stealth the jounin enjoy. They're fricking ninjas for crying out loud.)

if you are the boss of a team they will follow your example of being stealthy you know how to be stealthy so you teach your underlings the same you are leading them after all.

 

people may think this is not needed but there in game explanations for why it would work this way

Edited March 19 by Mystoc

[Rudra]

3 minutes ago, Mystoc said:

if you are the boss of a team they will follow your example of being stealthy you know how to be stealthy so you teach your underlings the same you are leading them after all.

By that logic, then as long as you are the team leader, your team should also benefit from your stealth skills. So we should let the Stalkers lead all our teams so the rest of the team can benefit from their guidance and stealth everything.

 

I've been lead (boss) for many teams. Both in game and real life. And funny thing, the team members often do not possess the same skill sets I have. So we have to find a way to work together using our different skill sets.

[biostem]

10 minutes ago, Mystoc said:

if you are the boss of a team they will follow your example of being stealthy you know how to be stealthy so you teach your underlings the same you are leading them after all

That's not how the game nor real life works.

[Mystoc]

25 minutes ago, Rudra said:

By that logic, then as long as you are the team leader, your team should also benefit from your stealth skills. So we should let the Stalkers lead all our teams so the rest of the team can benefit from their guidance and stealth everything.

 

you are leading you henchmen permanently they spend every second with you (you being buddies with them is your main power) its like a life long bond of course they would pick up techniques you know like stealth.

 

its not the same why are you branching off to teams? when did I ever mention this for teams? 

 

I Don't get why passive mode having a secondary function for Mastermind is such a stretch .. Denfensive does exactly that split damage you get between your pets the lore is they are protecting you like your bodyguard's

 

Passive mode is just your pets following your lead being sneaky when you are being sneaky.

 

25 minutes ago, Rudra said:

 

I've been lead (boss) for many teams. Both in game and real life. And funny thing, the team members often do not possess the same skill sets I have. So we have to find a way to work together using our different skill sets.

 

again I mean pets by when I said leader, I am very confused why you ever think I mean teams when the tittle of post purely mentions henchmen?

 

 

Edited March 19 by Mystoc

[biostem]

4 minutes ago, Mystoc said:

you are leading you henchmen permanently they spend every second with you (you being buddies with them is your main power) its like a life long bond of course they would pick up techniques you know like stealth.

That may be YOUR rationalization, but it doesn't extend to everyone.  It also doesn't make sense for pets that aren't really taught by the MM themselves, like zombies, demons, or robots.

 

5 minutes ago, Mystoc said:

Passive mode is just your pets following your lead being sneaky when you are being sneaky.

In your opinion, maybe, but not in all cases.

 

6 minutes ago, Mystoc said:

again I mean pets by when I said leader, I am very confused why you ever think I mean teams when the tittle of post purely mentions henchmen?

If you can teach your minions skills by virtue of leading them, then logically it would follow that you could teach other teammates such skills in the same way.

[Player2]

4 minutes ago, Mystoc said:

 

you are leading you henchmen permanently they spend every second with you (you being buddies with them is your main power) its like a life long bond of course they would pick up techniques you know like stealth.

 

its not the same why are you branching off to teams? when did I ever mention this for teams? 

 

Henchmen are not teammates.  Some may stick around for a lengthy time, others may come and go for whatever reasons.  A mastermind is an employer, not a buddy.  If they're there to learn from you, then how long before they learn everything they can and move on to learn from someone else or start their own solo career?

 

MM pets are fairly static individuals that have learned as much and gone as far as they're going to and have latched on to someone who can take them further... with equipment or power upgrades (temporary) and protection of whatever other power the MM boasts (secondary powerset).  I don't even give them the credit of leveling up as the MM does... they're sidekicking to get the level boost because they are inferior without the MM.

[Rudra]

25 minutes ago, Mystoc said:

its not the same why are you branching off to teams? when did I ever mention this for teams? 

 

58 minutes ago, Mystoc said:

if you are the boss of a team they will follow your example of being stealthy

 

 

Edit: Providing break to separate quoted comments.

25 minutes ago, Mystoc said:

Passive mode is just your pets following your lead being sneaky when you are being sneaky.

No, it isn't. Passive mode is your henchmen being ordered to not fight under any circumstances. Nowhere does it say or even imply that they are following your lead and being stealthy. They just aren't fighting. As opposed to Aggressive mode where your henchmen are ordered to kill every hostile they see and Defensive mode where they are ordered to only engage enemies if you or the other henchmen are being attacked. You are reading into what Passive mode does and is.

 

25 minutes ago, Mystoc said:

you are leading you henchmen permanently they spend every second with you

Wow. That must suck. Must make bathroom breaks rather uncomfortable.

 

25 minutes ago, Mystoc said:

(you being buddies with them is your main power)

They aren't your buddies. They are your henchmen. Your subordinates. They follow you not because they like you personally, but because you are the boss.

 

25 minutes ago, Mystoc said:

its like a life long bond of course they would pick up techniques you know like stealth.

I've been friends with people for all my life, and yet they have skills I don't and I have skills they don't. That logic doesn't pan out.

 

25 minutes ago, Mystoc said:

I Don't get why passive mode having a secondary function for Mastermind is such a stretch .. Denfensive does exactly that split damage you get between your pets the lore is they are protecting you like your bodyguard's

Incorrect. Bodyguard Mode is only active while the pets are in Defensive Follow stance and within the radius of your Supremacy effect. Put them in Defensive Attack, Defensive Stay, or Defensive GoTo, and you lose Bodyguard Mode.

 

25 minutes ago, Mystoc said:

again I mean pets by when I said leader, I am very confused why you ever think I mean teams when the tittle of post purely mentions henchmen?

First, because you said teams. Second, because the logic you are applying to MM pets getting MM power picks for free can be applied to player teams as well. Third, because the theme of the MM pets aside from the ninjas is not stealth. Battle Drones and Assault Bots are not programmed to be stealthy. They are programmed to obliterate their designated targets. Protector Bots are not programmed to be stealthy, they are programmed to shield the other bots and the MM while also obliterating their designated targets. Demons don't care what skills you possess or how much you want them to use those skills. They live to destroy. Thugs are poorly trained brutes that tear through your enemies for you. Mercenaries are standard soldiers, learning battlefield tactics and weapons employment. Even some first aid. Stealth isn't something the basic soldier trains in. So on and so forth. You as the MM have to look at what your pets can do as opposed to what you want them to do, and then come up with the plan to make what you want possible. You are after all, the brains of the group. That does not mean your pets like you or will learn things outside of their own concerns voluntarily.

Edited March 19 by Rudra