Take the fast path

[Greycat]

Another "this would take a lot of work, but..."

 

When doing Mender Ramiel's arc to unlock Alpha, Lady Grey mentions two paths to the Well's power. Assuming you don't completely ignore it (or the arc, and just naturally get the power,) there should be an option to take the "fast" path.

 

With downsides, of course. Taking the fast path, you're subject to - or at least at risk of - the whims of the Well. Yes, you immediately can get some T4 powers slotted - but the Well might have need of you and give you some tasks you should *really* do *right now.* (Well, next.) It may decide no, that guy *right there* is the one that needs to be hit with Judgement, regardless of what else you're doing. It may grow displeased with you and start depowering you at times. Or it may be quite pleased with you and amp things up for a bit.

 

(We'd likely need another UI element to show the favor or displeasure of the well as some sort of meter.)

 

Of course, eventually you'll probably want to break free of the Well's control - at which point you'll have to seek out a contact who knows about this sort of thing and can assist you in doing so. (Or three, which mostly have dialog and flavor differences - natural, technological and magical means.)  Of course, the Well's disfavor will grow throughout this arc, making it harder to fight against it, resulting in you being at your lowest point when you end up fighting some other Champions, as well as (finally) a representation of the Well itself holding a fragment of your essence hostage. (Not saying "soul" as that enters into "but my character doesn't have one." Essence is ... a bit more handwavey.)

 

Now, while you're under the Well's favor, you'll still (in the background) be unlocking your various slots and gathering salvage, threads, etc. (Whether at a debuff or not - I'll leave that up to game balancers.) You *can't* change your Well-Incarnate powers without permission from the well (probably a short task - a mission from the Well that lets you swap one out, probably one per day.) So you will be able to slot whatever you've unlocked.

 

(This will probably have to alter the Mender's mission, too, as you're making the choice to take the Well's offer - probably when you talk to Honoree.)

 

Why? Variety. Giving the player a choice - some characters likely would take the power *now* regardless, after all. Broadening the experience.

[Rudra]

The problem with the fast path is evidenced by Recluse as part of that arc (if you are playing a villain or rogue). Whenever the Well wants, it just takes control of you. (Edit: And is also explained by Lady Grey in case you're not a villain or rogue. The fast path makes your character a puppet of the Well with autonomy only when the Well chooses to let you.) That renders your character an NPC, which is why players are forced into the slow path.

Edited April 4 by Rudra

[Sunsette]

5 minutes ago, Rudra said:

The problem with the fast path is evidenced by Recluse as part of that arc (if you are playing a villain or rogue). Whenever the Well wants, it just takes control of you. That renders your character an NPC, which is why players are forced into the slow path.

 

That's why Greycat gives the suggestions they do, to emulate the restrictions embodied by the fast path.

 

I don't think I'd ever take it and it seems like a lot of work for a path that is heavily ignorable for anyone who planned their build out while frustrating for those who try to experiment. It might also be difficult to work with ouro. Interesting idea though.

Edited April 4 by Sunsette

[Rudra]

16 minutes ago, Sunsette said:

 

That's why Greycat gives the suggestions they do, to emulate the restrictions embodied by the fast path.

 

I don't think I'd ever take it and it seems like a lot of work for a path that is heavily ignorable for anyone who planned their build out while frustrating for those who try to experiment. Interesting idea though.

I understand that, but @Greycat's proposal overlooks what the Well did to Recluse, why Recluse was so desperate to free himself (and always failed), and just to what extent the Well takes control of your character.

 

Edit: Basically if you take the fast path, you surrender yourself to the Well and there is no getting free of its control. Even the slow path carries a risk of the Well gaining control over your character, but you can fend it off. You can't ever get free on the fast path and are relegated to Well puppet.

 

Edit again: Also, if you choose the fast path, you shouldn't get to choose your incarnate powers. After all, you surrendered yourself to the Well to achieve power as fast as possible, so the Well gets to decide what powers you get. And since the Well can take control of your character whenever it wishes, it should be able to randomly simply take control of the character away from the player and then have the game play the character until the Well's goal(s) have been achieved. Things I don't think any player are going to accept for their characters, but that is very much what the game tells us the fast path does.

 

Edited April 4 by Rudra
Edited to remove unnecessary "ing" from "free".

[PeregrineFalcon]

14 minutes ago, Rudra said:

I understand that, but @Greycat's proposal overlooks what the Well did to Recluse, why Recluse was so desperate to free himself (and always failed), and just to what extent the Well takes control of your character.

Yes, and currently the only option is to take the slow path because taking the fast path would basically require you to completely surrender control of your character as it would become an NPC.

 

However, Greycat is clearly suggesting an alternative that would allow your character to take this path but not become an NPC. This pretty much requires an option to break free from it, otherwise it's a horrible option that no one would take. Also, being able to break free from it is a perfect hook for a story arc.

 

Besides, if you do take the fast path, and then later break free, it shows that your willpower is stronger than Recluse's is, which opens up other story possibilities.

[Rudra]

12 minutes ago, PeregrineFalcon said:

Yes, and currently the only option is to take the slow path because taking the fast path would basically require you to completely surrender control of your character as it would become an NPC.

 

However, Greycat is clearly suggesting an alternative that would allow your character to take this path but not become an NPC. This pretty much requires an option to break free from it, otherwise it's a horrible option that no one would take. Also, being able to break free from it is a perfect hook for a story arc.

 

Besides, if you do take the fast path, and then later break free, it shows that your willpower is stronger than Recluse's is, which opens up other story possibilities.

That throws out established lore about the Well and taking the fast path, but if the devs are for it, then whatever. Though I still say the player does not get to choose their powers and until they break free the game should randomly take control of their character and play it, even leaving missions currently being done to go do whatever else the Well wants done until that task is done. Edit: If players want to take the fast path? Congrats, you are a full T4'ed for all 10 original incarnate power slots even though 4 don't yet exist, but you get no choice as to your powers and you lose control of your character whenever the game feels like.

 

 

Edit again: And because you chose to surrender yourself to the Well, if you do get a mission to get free, it is a solo mission against full incarnated foes of at least player levels of power, and if you fail it such as by suffering defeat, you lose access to gaining your freedom for at least 1 real time week.

 

Edited April 4 by Rudra
Edited to add missed word "randomly". And again to correct "5" to "4".

[Frozen Burn]

We are already taking both paths.... The shard / Notice of the Well components are the "slow" path - part of the reason you get 1 shard at the end of Ramiel's arc.  Depsite getting your Alpha unlocked, it takes forever to get enough shards or run all the appropriate content for shard component rewards to even build out your Alpha.  The threads, astrals, empyreans are clearly the "fast" path.  And it seems to be the way to go since only Alpha can accept Shard components.  

 

I am all for more story content about dealing with the Well as we grow our incarnate abilities, but we still need the the other Incarnate abilities unlocked as well:  Genesis, Stance, Vitae, and Omega.  But becoming more powerful with these, also requires more difficult content, otherwise the game gets too easy.  Some say it already is.  

 

So, perhaps with the new content the Devs are working on, these new Incarnate abilities will be unlocked.  And perhaps there can be a story arc that includes dealing with the Well as well.  (see what I did there?)  😄  

[Greycat]

1 hour ago, Rudra said:

I understand that, but @Greycat's proposal overlooks what the Well did to Recluse, why Recluse was so desperate to free himself (and always failed), and just to what extent the Well takes control of your character.

 

Not overlooking it at all.  I'm blending it with retaining some degree of player agency, while feeling the effects of battling the Well (granted, "mildly") to keep control. Statesman, after all, wasn't enslaved to the Well - but he was very careful with his powers and *seeking* more power specifically to avoid it. You're not turned into an automaton, after all.

 

It's also why there's a proposal for contacts and an arc to finally fight and free yourself. Which itself, granted, is a bit "fast and loose" with the lore... on the other hand, there's nothing to say it *can't* be done. We know the Wells can be defeated and consumed - that was part of the whole theme of the Battalion. And while I've no interest in seeing them or that story emerge, it - as well as the existence of Ascended, and proposals for still higher beings - opens the door wide to at least being able to fight the Well.

[Luminara]

1 hour ago, PeregrineFalcon said:

completely surrender control of your character as it would become an NPC

 

No!  Don't NPC me, bro!

[Rudra]

18 minutes ago, Greycat said:

 

Not overlooking it at all.  I'm blending it with retaining some degree of player agency, while feeling the effects of battling the Well (granted, "mildly") to keep control. Statesman, after all, wasn't enslaved to the Well - but he was very careful with his powers and *seeking* more power specifically to avoid it. You're not turned into an automaton, after all.

 

It's also why there's a proposal for contacts and an arc to finally fight and free yourself. Which itself, granted, is a bit "fast and loose" with the lore... on the other hand, there's nothing to say it *can't* be done. We know the Wells can be defeated and consumed - that was part of the whole theme of the Battalion. And while I've no interest in seeing them or that story emerge, it - as well as the existence of Ascended, and proposals for still higher beings - opens the door wide to at least being able to fight the Well.

You're right, you're not an automaton and Hero 1, Statesman, Recluse, and Reischman were all able to go about their daily lives for the most part. However, like you said, Statesman was careful about his power acquisition because the Well could already take control of him whenever it wanted and he didn't want to reach the point of puppet extension, Recluse was trying to find ways to grow his power that didn't involve the Well and was desperately trying to find a way to free himself, and Hero 1 stopped seeking power because he felt he had enough to do what needed to be done. (And Hero 1 was the only NPC incarnate the Well had any respect for.)

 

However, the Well did possess the ability to simply seize control of any of those NPC incarnates whenever it wanted, and that is something that players that choose to take the fast path must contend with. That since they aren't drawing power from the well as much as the Well is simply imbuing them with power, they don't get to choose their incarnate powers. That is not to say that the player should face getting incarnate abilities that they don't benefit from, after all, the Well wants capable servants, so they should at least get incarnate powers of benefit to their AT, but they won't get their choice, they get the game's choice. And depending on what the player's character does, they should face the risk of losing control of their character for however long the Well decides to directly use them for its own goals. Which would be very problematic in things like iTrials since they are all going against the Well's favored avatar/champion: Tyrant. (Edit: Except for the Underground iTrial....) So like with Recluse, when the Well decides to take over, you lose access to that character while the game plays that character as appropriate towards accomplishing whatever background task the game assigned. Even if it means leaving a mission, TF/SF, or trial to go do something else while they are still going. How often will that happen? I don't know, however often the random chance the devs assigned is triggered.

 

And because the player did choose to surrender their character to the Well, even if they can get a mission to get free, it should be of monumental difficulty to reflect their struggle to get free. With failure resulting in loss of that opportunity and no new opportunities for an appropriate amount of time. You surrendered to the Well, tried to break free, and failed, you don't get to keep retrying until the Well stops paying attention to you for trying to get free. And it should be a solo task only because it is your ordeal/struggle against the Well to break your chains. (And if you do, you retain access to the incarnate slots you background unlocked and the granted powers to slot again when you unlock their slot again if you did not already unlock them normally in the background.)

Edited April 4 by Rudra