raid Once again asking for an instanced Hamidon Raid

[Laucianna]

I made this request a long while ago but didn't hear anything from it so I am making it again in hopes to get an answer on if it is possible or not.

An instanced Hamidon raid in either Abyss or Hive but make it so both Heroes and Villains can join, at the moment I have found a lot of people are afking in the zone an HOUR before the raid is meant to happen so the people actually running have to either get there early before it fills or deal with the hassle of forming again in the second zone and dealing with dozens of tells saying "Here in Abyss and no one else here!"

You also have the issue with leachers, there are now a handful of people who refuse to join the league and run in for a few hits, preventing people actually wanting to join the league from entering and can hide buds around the zone preventing him from popping again.

Especially with the boom in players since the official announcement there is a huge demand for Hami raids (To the point we run them side by side a few days a week)

[Shin Magmus]

On one hand, this is a solid suggestion and it clearly would fix a lot of issues with the event: as seen with the surge in Instanced MSRs happening.  Necessitating an invite to an instance will de-facto remove bad actors and trolls from being able to get in, once they are sufficiently blacklisted.

 

On the other hand, this never happens on Everlasting.  This behavior is why you can't pay me to play on Excel, where shitheads even feel the need to "hide buds" and grief Hami.  Trolling losers naturally flock to the area with the biggest playerbase: so the easiest step to avoiding them is to just go somewhere with fewer victims, targets, players.

[JasperStone]

Yes, please.

 

When I was primarily on Indom, the MSR was switched to the Instance for a while because it interfered less with in-zone activities.

Also, we started running themed events like an all MM MSR ...  

The smaller map AND the closer location of the Hospital was nice

 

Trolling during Hami and MSR existed even on Indom ...  so there is that.

 

 

[Oklahoman]

My thinking on this has shifted. The initial request was due to buds, and I still firmly believe we need a bud counter and/or have them show in the mini-map. Clearing buds is required to get Hami to respawn, so I think that's only fair. Regardless of what happens with this request, I think we need a bud counter and/or locator.

 

I'm more interested in an instanced Hami now because of how popular the event is on Excelsior. On weekends, and sometimes Fridays, we are filling 2 Abyss' at the same time. And, as Lauci alluded to, sometimes Abyss 1 is filled considerably ahead of the advertised start time. As a league leader, I don't want to have to sit in zone for an hour to secure my own spot when I could be leading other things.

 

My concern is that this could be a permanent solution to a temporary problem, and perhaps just for 1 server. Hopefully the coding for this wouldn't be awful, especially with what was learned from creating the instanced MSR. But realistically, leaders change and the population moves from one thing to another. This event may not be nearly as popular in a few months, for all we know - or it could be even MORE popular. If I had the attention of a developer I probably could think of several other things I would want them to spend their time on that could benefit all servers for the remainder of the time the game is available. Still, having an instanced Hami would allow more people to participate and reduce leachers, plus let me run stuff up until the advertised raid time. I support the idea.

[shortguy on indom]

On 5/4/2024 at 9:40 PM, Laucianna said:

You also have the issue with leachers, there are now a handful of people who refuse to join the league and run in for a few hits, preventing people actually wanting to join the league from entering and can hide buds around the zone preventing him from popping again.

• What is a leacher?... just someone who refuses to join your league?
• Is it a "leacher" that is hiding buds around the zone.... for sure?  Or is it merely powers with knockback causing this? 
• Never heard of this 'hiding buds' thing before.  (Usually had some volunteers scan the bowl after a round to make sure all clear).

[Laucianna]

58 minutes ago, shortguy on indom said:

• What is a leacher?... just someone who refuses to join your league?
• Is it a "leacher" that is hiding buds around the zone.... for sure?  Or is it merely powers with knockback causing this? 
• Never heard of this 'hiding buds' thing before.  (Usually had some volunteers scan the bowl after a round to make sure all clear).

There are two kinds of leacher that I can think of atm:

1 - Someone who refuses to join the league, doesn't help to spawn Hami, doesn't buff up the league, runs in to get a few hits whilst not helping much.
2 - Someone who does join the league, but just has auto tp on and auto PBAOE attack going, and since we teleport people to Hami to make it easier it allows them to AFK get credit. I can kick them from said league however now they just take up a spot in the zone for someone who will actually help.

With the hiding buds it tends to be the number 1 leechers who don't listen when told to stay in the middle, so run off to their log out spot on the cliffs, causing a bud to spawn there whilst they log off (This has been visually confirmed multiple times)

[shortguy on indom]

53 minutes ago, Laucianna said:

There are two kinds of leacher that I can think of atm:

1 - Someone who refuses to join the league, doesn't help to spawn Hami, doesn't buff up the league, runs in to get a few hits whilst not helping much.
2 - Someone who does join the league, but just has auto tp on and auto PBAOE attack going, and since we teleport people to Hami to make it easier it allows them to AFK get credit. I can kick them from said league however now they just take up a spot in the zone for someone who will actually help.

With the hiding buds it tends to be the number 1 leechers who don't listen when told to stay in the middle, so run off to their log out spot on the cliffs, causing a bud to spawn there whilst they log off (This has been visually confirmed multiple times)

 

Understood.

I'm trying to see your points on this suggestion.

 

Just that I do not agree with your categorization of a leecher.

Suspect since they (the leachers) arrive early at the raid, that in reality the "leachers" are just "dual boxers."  (They have one toon on your league and another toon parked).

Suggest the "issue of leeching" that you are writing of is not an issue at all as you describe.... it's just "dual -boxing."

 

If too many folks are wanting "hami".... turn "hami" up a few difficulty notches...

Because a few students are not listening in class.... and above...

re-writing game code for a hami raid is not needed imho.

 

 

[Laucianna]

6 minutes ago, shortguy on indom said:

 

Understood.

I'm trying to see your points on this suggestion.

 

Just that I do not agree with your categorization of a leecher.

Suspect since they (the leachers) arrive early at the raid, that in reality the "leachers" are just "dual boxers."  (They have one toon on your league and another toon parked).

Suggest the "issue of leeching" that you are writing of is not an issue at all as you describe.... it's just "dual -boxing."

 

If too many folks are wanting "hami".... turn "hami" up a few difficulty notches...

Because a few students are not listening in class.... and above...

re-writing game code for a hami raid is not needed imho.

 

 

If they are dual boxing that is even worse? Not to mention bannable if caught by the GM lol.

And that solution will just make it so the leechers ruin it for everyone else? Why should the league of people doing what needs to be done be punished because someone wants to leech the event?

[SeraphimKensai]

Honestly I'm all for there be an instanced version of a Hami raid. My old SG used to pride ourselves on running SG Twilight only Hami raids, and occasionally we'd have people sneaking in to the zone. Sometimes these people would drag monsters to us, other times they'd hang out in safety eating popcorn get a hot, and get out and wait for their Hami.

 

Instanced raids would help...

1. League leaders weed out bad actors
2. Help people in the raid that DC to get back to the party.
3. Allow for private raids if a group chooses.
4. Allow for specialty runs like All Tankers, All Stalkers, etc.
5. Allow for people to LFG queue to the Hive/Abyss and speed travel to the zones for non-instanced raids.

I don't really see any drawbacks to it so....

 

+1 to the suggestion.

[lemming]

I think it's a fine idea if it doesn't cause too many Dev headaches.

 

The dual box complaint might be if someone has one account in the Hive or Abyss, and any other accounts are doing stuff outside the map.   Allows someone to "save" a spot, but they're still doing stuff.  Though one would think they would be more responsive than someone who parked and went to make dinner.

Looking at the charts, doesn't look like Excelsior has exceeded the 1500 players at a time for the last week, so as long as they don't multi in the raid zones themselves.

[Rudra]

3 hours ago, shortguy on indom said:

• What is a leacher?... just someone who refuses to join your league?
• Is it a "leacher" that is hiding buds around the zone.... for sure?  Or is it merely powers with knockback causing this? 
• Never heard of this 'hiding buds' thing before.  (Usually had some volunteers scan the bowl after a round to make sure all clear).

They mean leecher. As in one who leeches. Because I sincerely doubt they are talking about sails.

[shortguy on indom]

Has this reached the level of a full blown crisis?

Random groups of "leachers" sneaking into a zone or via smuggler's sub...
These "leachers" :

• do not want to be part of the league
• do not follow rules
• do not work for the rewards
• take more than thier fair share of the rewards (steal, as was mentioned).
• hide
• basically "ruin it for everyone else."

My questions at this point are:  

• Where is the council in all this?
• Has the council visited this zone?... or sent a GM representative to view for themselves?
• Has the league leader employed an SG security team at the "zone entrance."
• Have the "leachers" been caught in the act?
• Have the "leachers" been reported?... or just ignored?
• Do the "leachers" keep finding their way back to zone some other way?
   

[shortguy on indom]

21 minutes ago, Rudra said:

They mean leecher. As in one who leeches. Because I sincerely doubt they are talking about sails.

As you wish, please take 5 points off for spelling.

[shortguy on indom]

2 hours ago, Laucianna said:

If they are dual boxing that is even worse? Not to mention bannable if caught by the GM lol.

Have you asked them if they are?...

Not going to touch the bannable portion of your response.

 

[Laucianna]

4 minutes ago, shortguy on indom said:

Have you asked them if they are?...

Not going to touch the bannable portion of your response.

 

You are the one who mentioned they might be dual boxing? And I have reported a multitude of them to the GMs to sort out yes.

 

 

12 minutes ago, shortguy on indom said:

Has this reached the level of a full blown crisis?

Random groups of "leachers" sneaking into a zone or via smuggler's sub...
These "leachers" :

• do not want to be part of the league
• do not follow rules
• do not work for the rewards
• take more than thier fair share of the rewards (steal, as was mentioned).
• hide
• basically "ruin it for everyone else."

My questions at this point are:  

• Where is the council in all this?
• Has the council visited this zone?... or sent a GM representative to view for themselves?
• Has the league leader employed an SG security team at the "zone entrance."
• Have the "leachers" been caught in the act?
• Have the "leachers" been reported?... or just ignored?
• Do the "leachers" keep finding their way back to zone some other way?
   

Not a crisis but annoying for people leading stuff within the game, which is helping keep the game alive.

"Where is the council in all this?"
No idea what you are asking here? 😄

"Has the council visited this zone?... or sent a GM representative to view for themselves?"
Again not sure what you are asking here? But GMs have visited the zone and seen it first hand but I am not expecting a GM to turn up to every event ran.

"Has the league leader employed an SG security team at the "zone entrance.""
What on earth is some SG member standing at the door going to do XD Write down every name who enters the zone? People get there over an hour early so you expect them to be stood there marking down everyone who comes in?

 

"Have the "leachers" been caught in the act?"

Yes

"Have the "leachers" been reported?... or just ignored?"
Reported when found, but I am not going to search the entire zone to find the handful of people on hidden refusing to help out.

 

"Do the "leachers" keep finding their way back to zone some other way?"

Yeah, the same way everyone else enters the zone?

 

Hopefully that help clears up why a few people hindering the event for everyone else is an annoying problem to deal with daily, and helps make my suggestion a bit more clear ❤️ Though if you have any more questions please do ask and I will do my best to help clear up the confusion 🙂 

[Oklahoman]

I feel like we've drifted from the major points to focus more on leachers/leechers/letchers/lectures, the definitions thereof, the care and feeding of them, and their motivations in light of their lived trauma experiences.

 

As a league leader, it would be nice to be able to show up at 6pm Eastern for a scheduled 6pm Eastern raid in a zone that can accommodate more than 50 people and be able to form a league. Along the way, league leaders can weed out bad actors by adding them, hesitantly, to our global ignore list.

 

As a participant, it would be nice to be able to show up at 6pm Eastern for a scheduled 6pm Eastern raid in a zone that can accommodate more than 50 people and still have a shot at getting in the league. Unless you are a bad actor, of course.

 

At least part of the impetus for building an instanced MSR was the fact that - at least on Everlasting - we were running 2 MSRs in the same zone at the same time. Once the zone was lowered to a cap of 50, the instanced version became necessary due to the demand. While that may not be an issue right now for MSRs, we have the same conditions for Hami. I can't think of an argument right now to have an instanced MSR but not an instanced Hami.

[shortguy on indom]

It's getting clearer, using the decoding ring... "Drink more...________."

 

The unwritten rules are being broken (excluding the dual-box law on the books I had mentioned).

So, after exhausting all possible options and elevating the issue(s) to middle management... to no avail...

 

Only thing which can be done is one of three things:

• Let the next administration deal w/it.
• Throw as much influence at the problem as possible.
• Give these "leechers" whatever they want, including free green enhancements.

 

 

[Frozen Burn]

I really do not see the need for an instanced raid.  The zones are already locked for level appropriateness and there can only be a certain amount of people in them anyway before a second Hive/Abyss is spawned.  So, they basically already are instanced in that regard.  

 

And just because one is not on the league, it doesn't mean they are leeching or misbehaving.  Most of the time I join the league, but there are times i don't want to deal with all the gabbing and nonsense that goes on the in league channel and I want a nice quiet hami experience.  It's easy to follow the group and contribute whether dealing damage, buffing, debufffing, controlling, or all.  One can do a full raid, kill GMs, kill mitos, (or dole out the buffs/debuffs), and kill Hami without being on a league or team.  So, just because you find someone not on the league, doesn't mean they are a bad / selfish player and/or up to nefarious reasons.

 

If there is specific griefing happening during a Hami raid - like hiding buds, then those individuals should be reported.  

 

[GM_GooglyMoogly]

Edited May 6 by GM_GooglyMoogly

[Duckbutler]

I would tend to place extra value Lauciana and Okie's opinions on this because they are both known to put these together a lot and they do a pretty good job with the coordination as far as the runs I've been on. Aside from that, the trend over most MMOs has been to lean towards instanced content with many of their concerns as factors. I personally have found it to be a better experience when I can actually get into the groups as opposed to just tagging along

[shortguy on indom]

2 hours ago, Frozen Burn said:

I really do not see the need for an instanced raid.  The zones are already locked for level appropriateness and there can only be a certain amount of people in them anyway before a second Hive/Abyss is spawned.  So, they basically already are instanced in that regard.  

 

And just because one is not on the league, it doesn't mean they are leeching or misbehaving.  Most of the time I join the league, but there are times i don't want to deal with all the gabbing and nonsense that goes on the in league channel and I want a nice quiet hami experience.  It's easy to follow the group and contribute whether dealing damage, buffing, debufffing, controlling, or all.  One can do a full raid, kill GMs, kill mitos, (or dole out the buffs/debuffs), and kill Hami without being on a league or team.  So, just because you find someone not on the league, doesn't mean they are a bad / selfish player and/or up to nefarious reasons.

 

If there is specific griefing happening during a Hami raid - like hiding buds, then those individuals should be reported.  

 

Agree with this above.  Tried to do this myself and got lambasted, though was doing nothing but helping.

 

The first post felt accusatory toward folks who do not want to "league," so wanted to know more about the situation at hand.

 

Not sure who said it...."Better to let 10 guilty men go free than a single innocent man be convicted."

 

So, something which seems like an etiquette or unwritten rule is not liked by a lead, (usually takes about 8 lead total to run one of these imho)... and being late to your own party are an issue... than I am in the wrong thread, because not sure I can be convinced the GMs or the Council can help unless you get an instanced raid.

 

Agreement is had that it can be a bummer... but what about something like a "Special Event" which can be triggered by the GMs or something if you could coordinate.  Just seems like a lot of fuss to fix a small but irritating problem to require program development. 

 

 

[Laucianna]

3 hours ago, Frozen Burn said:

want to deal with all the gabbing and nonsense that goes on the in league channel

This is part of the problem, the league chat tends to be filled with instructions to make sure it is a successful run, the less people listening the more likely everyone fails. To me it is a form of unintentional griefing not listening to the league leads instructions, like joining a trial run and doing your own thing, and although people do not listen all the time in league, at least I know the CAN listen 🙂

[biostem]

2 minutes ago, Laucianna said:

This is part of the problem, the league chat tends to be filled with instructions to make sure it is a successful run, the less people listening the more likely everyone fails. To me it is a form of unintentional griefing not listening to the league leads instructions, like joining a trial run and doing your own thing, and although people do not listen all the time in league, at least I know the CAN listen

TBH, I don't find the problem to be the league leaders giving too many or not enough instructions, but people flooding the chat with in-jokes, puns, or other gibberish that should instead be thrown to broadcast or maybe private channels.  To your point about it being "unintentional griefing", my only issue there is that, IMO, "griefing" requires an intentional/deliberate attempt to undermine or otherwise harass others - so if you're just in the zone to get a hit in and earn your merits or HO, but not intentionally and knowingly working against the league, then you aren't griefing.  Was it ever outright stated that said league "owns" the event, anyway?  Of course, the ability to restrict who can or cannot participate may be the real reason this is being requested...

[Laucianna]

3 minutes ago, biostem said:

TBH, I don't find the problem to be the league leaders giving too many or not enough instructions, but people flooding the chat with in-jokes, puns, or other gibberish that should instead be thrown to broadcast or maybe private channels.  To your point about it being "unintentional griefing", my only issue there is that, IMO, "griefing" requires an intentional/deliberate attempt to undermine or otherwise harass others - so if you're just in the zone to get a hit in and earn your merits or HO, but not intentionally and knowingly working against the league, then you aren't griefing.  Was it ever outright stated that said league "owns" the event, anyway?  Of course, the ability to restrict who can or cannot participate may be the real reason this is being requested...

I don't want to delve the comments into discussions about what is or isn't hurting the league.

But coming from someone who has been running multiple events for years I can assure you, not joining the league and listening to the instructions given is a hinderance and the instanced version would allow league leaders to make it a better raid for the people who actually want to help the event succeed. It would also allow us to start it when we are ready, without us having to arrive an hour early and sit in the zone just to make sure we don't get locked out.

[biostem]

32 minutes ago, Laucianna said:

not joining the league and listening to the instructions given is a hinderance and the instanced version would allow league leaders to make it a better raid for the people who actually want to help the event succeed. It would also allow us to start it when we are ready, without us having to arrive an hour early and sit in the zone just to make sure we don't get locked out.

I have no doubt that people doing things apart from the league can be/is a hindrance to said league.  The bigger question is whether said league has any right to or exclusive say over what goes on in that zone.  I can certainly see a case for offering an instanced version of Hamidon.  The only lingering concern I have is whether doing so could end up in some folks, who may get on the bad side of such event organizers, to essentially be blacklisted from being able to take part.  At least in the current implementation, they can get a couple hits in and get something out of it.  I'm not arguing whether such behavior is right or wrong, merely that adding an extra layer of exclusivity may not be a good thing...

Edited May 7 by biostem