High level enemy group revamps

[Bionic_Flea]

Did they always have the same suite of powers then as now?  Do the Masters of Death have better, stronger powers?

[Luminara]

7 minutes ago, Bionic_Flea said:

Did they always have the same suite of powers then as now?  Do the Masters of Death have better, stronger powers?

 

Master of Death had Tar Patch, Blackstar, Dark Embrace and Resistance added.

[Bionic_Flea]

Maybe it was the -tohit combined with all the negative resistance.  Even when I got a lucky hit on my dark melee, it was just a tickle to the Master.

[Rudra]

7 minutes ago, Bionic_Flea said:

Maybe it was the -tohit combined with all the negative resistance.  Even when I got a lucky hit on my dark melee, it was just a tickle to the Master.

Probably. One of the reasons why I always prioritize the spectrals among the CoT when they start showing up is because just a few of them can shut down a player's ability to hit anything.

[Triumphant]

Yeah, those spectral demons can be a pain.  Definitely pays to take them out as soon as possible.

[Eiko-chan]

11 hours ago, Bionic_Flea said:

Maybe it was the -tohit combined with all the negative resistance.  Even when I got a lucky hit on my dark melee, it was just a tickle to the Master.

The -50 to hit from their Blackstar could be contributing as well.

[tidge]

Some of us have been pointing out that the CoT had also gotten "harder", yet I think it is very telling that it has been the Council that got most of the attention. Again, I suspect it is because the Council spawns were the preferred easy punching bags prior to their updates.

 

Similar to the Council's powers... the CoT updates make sense to my head canon. Their new tricks are IMO essentially a doubling-down of tricks that the CoT use at low levels: debuffing players. Anyone who has played lower level content (e.g. a Positron, Synapse or Penny Yin task force) at a +4 setting realizes how important "ToHiT" (via Accuracy slotting, +ToHit, whatever) is important to clearing spawns. I have the feeling that some fraction of players don't always keep this in mind... writing only for myself, once I have some set bonuses, I occasionally don't pay attention to that sort of thing myself.

[Sanguinesun]

In the recent Original Devs Q&A, Phil "Synapse" Zeleski was asked:

 

For anyone who's interested in answering, be it gameplay, story, etc: What parts of Homecoming's development of City of Heroes do you approve of? Which do you not, or would do differently if it was you in charge?

 

And regarding the revamps to the mobs, he mirrored my thoughts on all this perfectly:

 

• I think the only parts of Homecoming that I am not a big fan of are the revamps of some of the endgame enemy groups. The Council and Circle of Thorns really stand out as just annoying to fight. They aren't tricky or require counterplay, they just take longer to defeat due to resistances, revives and debuffs.

[shortguy on indom]

HA!!!

[Triumphant]

2 hours ago, Sanguinesun said:

In the recent Original Devs Q&A, Phil "Synapse" Zeleski was asked:

 

For anyone who's interested in answering, be it gameplay, story, etc: What parts of Homecoming's development of City of Heroes do you approve of? Which do you not, or would do differently if it was you in charge?

 

And regarding the revamps to the mobs, he mirrored my thoughts on all this perfectly:

 

• I think the only parts of Homecoming that I am not a big fan of are the revamps of some of the endgame enemy groups. The Council and Circle of Thorns really stand out as just annoying to fight. They aren't tricky or require counterplay, they just take longer to defeat due to resistances, revives and debuffs.

Well, in all fairness, the mobs are never going to be "tricky", because the mobs A.I. is dumb as a brick.  If you don't increase resistances, controls, debuffs, etc. how do you make them tougher?  More hps?  Hard combat AT's chew through those like a buzzsaw.  Give the mobs a massive to-hit and damage boost?  Maybe, but the players that like squishy AT's would moan about this.

 

I mean, I'm no Dev, so I'm talking out of my wazoo to a large extent here, but it seems to me that you've got  a limited number of tools to work with, unless  you just want to leave the mobs as the ridiculously easy faceroll that they have been- which for endgame play, seems completely unsatisfying to me, personally.  I know people say they want to feel "super" and yeah, I get that.  But there's (IMO) a qualitative difference between being super (sure, gimme some of that) and an automatic "I win" button (no thank you).

[Sanguinesun]

7 minutes ago, Triumphant said:

Well, in all fairness, the mobs are never going to be "tricky", because the mobs A.I. is dumb as a brick.  If you don't increase resistances, controls, debuffs, etc. how do you make them tougher?  More hps?  Hard combat AT's chew through those like a buzzsaw.  Give the mobs a massive to-hit and damage boost?  Maybe, but the players that like squishy AT's would moan about this.

 

I mean, I'm no Dev, so I'm talking out of my wazoo to a large extent here, but it seems to me that you've got  a limited number of tools to work with, unless  you just want to leave the mobs as the ridiculously easy faceroll that they have been- which for endgame play, seems completely unsatisfying to me, personally.  I know people say they want to feel "super" and yeah, I get that.  But there's (IMO) a qualitative difference between being super (sure, gimme some of that) and an automatic "I win" button (no thank you).

 

Point was that the change was just to be a time sink/deterence and as was mentioned by folks much earlier in the thread. The purpose is because a segment of the people implementing these things wishes exp to take longer and to deter certain types of common play(like paper/radio mish use in this manner and more.).  Zeleski accurately sums up how the effort just turned the mobs into being annoying vs actually being meaningful with the changes and the changes really didnt need to occur to begin with.

[Shin Magmus]

10 hours ago, Sanguinesun said:

 

Point was that the change was just to be a time sink/deterence and as was mentioned by folks much earlier in the thread. The purpose is because a segment of the people implementing these things wishes exp to take longer and to deter certain types of common play(like paper/radio mish use in this manner and more.).  Zeleski accurately sums up how the effort just turned the mobs into being annoying vs actually being meaningful with the changes and the changes really didnt need to occur to begin with.

     Imagine if the devs spent that time and energy buffing dogshit sets up to par: like Empathy, Broadsword, Staff Fighting, Empathy, Kinetic Melee, Archery, Empathy, and finally Empathy.  Making the weakest sets in the game be less awful would have actually improved player enjoyment instead of spawning 16 page topics like this one...

[Ruin Mage]

That implies all the devs work on the same things. They do not.

Example:
Cobalt Arachne does not generally touch powers. His area is usually content or QOL for folks. I.e a new area for RP for RPers.
Powerhouse does not generally touch content. Her area is generally powersets - new and current/old.

Power Devs work on power sets. They don't usually/generally work on enemy groups outside of their changes also affecting NPCs.
Power Devs are also likely aware of what sets have fallen behind, but like all good things it takes time to come up with an idea. Even more time to make sure that idea doesn't brick something else. Or maybe even more time to see if x idea is better than y idea.

What a dev spends their time and energy on is based on what time they have available and what they have an interest in, at bare minimum.

Or so I'm told.

[CrusaderDroid]

45 minutes ago, Ruin Mage said:

Power Devs are also likely aware of what sets have fallen behind, but like all good things it takes time to come up with an idea. Even more time to make sure that idea doesn't brick something else. Or maybe even more time to see if x idea is better than y idea.

About one hour, tops.

 

Programming being time intensive? Sure. I can believe that. The basic design groundwork being time intensive? Only if you're so unpracticed that it takes you days to think of one power.

 

Ideas are not a big deal. I don't know the power team myself, so I'll give them the benefit of the doubt and assume it's the coding with a janky system that holds up anything, instead of the frankly insulting implication that they are somehow unable to generate ideas.

[tidge]

16 hours ago, Sanguinesun said:

In the recent Original Devs Q&A, Phil "Synapse" Zeleski was asked:

 

And regarding the revamps to the mobs, he mirrored my thoughts on all this perfectly:

 

• I think the only parts of Homecoming that I am not a big fan of are the revamps of some of the endgame enemy groups. The Council and Circle of Thorns really stand out as just annoying to fight. They aren't tricky or require counterplay, they just take longer to defeat due to resistances, revives and debuffs.

 

Does he remember how needlessly grindy the original Live Incarnate content was? Does Phil ever recall the other level 35+ groups?

 

The nuCouncil and nuCoT are no more "annoying" to fight that Rularuu, Nemesis, MoG PP, Carnie Illusionists, etc.

[Super Atom]

Synapse is 100% correct, making enemies take longer to kill is not difficulty. It's just more boring. I don't personally mind the council or cot revamps myself as they still don't take very long but i too wish homecoming had the time and man power to revamp enemy groups to have cool gimmicks and mechanics instead of more resistances and the ability to revive. I'm sure homecoming wishes they had more time and man power too' just a hunch

Edited June 6 by Super Atom

[tidge]

52 minutes ago, Super Atom said:

Synapse is 100% correct, making enemies take longer to kill is not difficulty. It's just more boring.

 

NuCouncil used to have no tricks, and were doormats compared to other groups. It is no secret that players would advertise "Council Radios in PI", I am not going to be convinced it is because the OTHER groups in radio options lacked "cool gimmicks". I think it is disingenuous for a "Live Dev" to throw shade at the most recent update to enemy groups when what we had on live was not exactly imaginative. KoV and BP in Dark Astoria... pretty good! Other groups that never got updated on Live? Pretty big blind spot IMO.

 

Personally, I find the Carnies to be the MOST annoying (not the most difficult) at x8, because of the constant phasing, flying and running. NuCouncil, even with an occasional runner, is still easier to deal with.

 

Even low levels have some highly annoying "classic" enemy behavior. I'm thinking of defeat all or even defeat specific spawns were the original CoT spectres go invisible and fly away. Tell me more about the classic non-boring play.

[arcane]

Obviously the devs did the right thing by buffing Council and CoT. For years we have all been open about Council being a complete joke and basically free xp at +4x8. Now that they’re mildly annoying to fight, everyone is conveniently developing amnesia about the previous state of things.

[Super Atom]

6 minutes ago, tidge said:

 

NuCouncil used to have no tricks, and were doormats compared to other groups. It is no secret that players would advertise "Council Radios in PI", I am not going to be convinced it is because the OTHER groups in radio options lacked "cool gimmicks". I think it is disingenuous for a "Live Dev" to throw shade at the most recent update to enemy groups when what we had on live was not exactly imaginative. KoV and BP in Dark Astoria... pretty good! Other groups that never got updated on Live? Pretty big blind spot IMO.

 

Personally, I find the Carnies to be the MOST annoying (not the most difficult) at x8, because of the constant phasing, flying and running. NuCouncil, even with an occasional runner, is still easier to deal with.

 

Even low levels have some highly annoying "classic" enemy behavior. I'm thinking of defeat all or even defeat specific spawns were the original CoT spectres go invisible and fly away. Tell me more about the classic non-boring play.

 

I mean you right, that carnie phase mechanic is bad. However, most enemy groups are fine really even the new changes are still fine imo i love when they turn into wolfs at death myself. Synpase didn't make the carnies, rularuu, defeat all missions or a huge plethora of the things that are usually considered annoying. He was hired in 2008. It's entirely possible he believed those mechanics weren't the best as well, you'd have to ask him though.

 

For the record though, I think he was talking as a homecoming player and his opinion on what he likes least, since he was asked "would do differently if it was you in charge?." I am biased though, Synapse/Bab were my favorite devs.

[mistagoat]

I greatly dislike the changes. These groups have just had boring time sinks added to them.

 

Even worse, you get nothing for the added effort. When you kill a Freak you get xp and then when that Freak rez's you kill it again and get another helping of xp. You get nothing but your time wasted by the council that turn into wolves. There isn't even an interesting mechanic involved. With a Super Stunner, you know you have to knock him away or get yourself away before he dies if you don't want him to rez. To go even further, if the Stunner rez's with you nearby he rez's with some life but if he rez's with the whole team around him he gets full life. Sure they can be a pain but there is a game to outsmarting them.

 

With the council, the player has no agency, there is nothing one can actively do to prevent them from turning and you can't affect how much life they turn with. It's all just rng, utterly devoid of creativity. X amount of these will turn and when a boss turns and you effectively kill 2 bosses you get 1 boss worth of xp. If I have to deal with rezzers/turners I'll just avoid the Council and go kill Freaks where at least I'm rewarded for the effort.

 

EDIT: I stand corrected, disregard my blatherings...

Edited June 6 by mistagoat
foolishness

[Rudra]

44 minutes ago, mistagoat said:

You get nothing but your time wasted by the council that turn into wolves.

I must be doing something weird then because when a Council or 5th Column enemy turns into a wolf, there is a blurb in the chat window that shows me getting xp and inf'.

 

45 minutes ago, mistagoat said:

With the council, the player has no agency, there is nothing one can actively do to prevent them from turning

Yes you can. I have never had a Council or 5th Column enemy turn into a wolf while held and their transformation always ended if I finished them at the start of the animation.

[tidge]

53 minutes ago, mistagoat said:

I greatly dislike the changes. These groups have just had boring time sinks added to them.

 

Even worse, you get nothing for the added effort. When you kill a Freak you get xp and then when that Freak rez's you kill it again and get another helping of xp.

 

IIRC, Freaks have generally lower XP because they can rez.

[Shin Magmus]

1 hour ago, Super Atom said:

 

I mean you right, that carnie phase mechanic is bad. However, most enemy groups are fine really even the new changes are still fine imo i love when they turn into wolfs at death myself. Synpase didn't make the carnies, rularuu, defeat all missions or a huge plethora of the things that are usually considered annoying. He was hired in 2008. It's entirely possible he believed those mechanics weren't the best as well, you'd have to ask him though.

 

For the record though, I think he was talking as a homecoming player and his opinion on what he likes least, since he was asked "would do differently if it was you in charge?." I am biased though, Synapse/Bab were my favorite devs.

     The Carnie phase mechanic feels random (and it effectively is) and this dramatically punishes builds with a strong single attack that they build around, or a debuff they need to hit in order to soften up targets.  Say for example you use Melt Armor on your Thermal on the Carnie group but that stupid boss phase dodges it: you've been robbed of your -Res and won't get it till the next fight.  Now say you're on an Energy Melee character and your TF gets phase dodged: welp your whole set doesn't work now and you don't get any Fast ETs until it recovers.  The problem is glaring and that is an enemy group that people really don't like.  Compared to that, nuCoT and nuCouncil are still not as annoying.  Gosh I hate fighting Carnies so much.

[mistagoat]

1 hour ago, Rudra said:

I must be doing something weird then because when a Council or 5th Column enemy turns into a wolf, there is a blurb in the chat window that shows me getting xp and inf'.

 

Yes you can. I have never had a Council or 5th Column enemy turn into a wolf while held and their transformation always ended if I finished them at the start of the animation.

You're right, not sure how I missed it, my apologies.

[Luminara]

28 minutes ago, Shin Magmus said:

The Carnie phase mechanic feels random (and it effectively is)

 

5s phase,15s activation period.  Not random at all.