High level enemy group revamps

[PeregrineFalcon]

Just now, Eiko-chan said:

Neat. Me too.

Yeah, I always have to preface my posts with this otherwise people will respond with some variation of "You don't know what you're talking about!!!"

[ThatGuyCDude]

I think a lot of the design decisions for these sorts of changes are aimed at making the game more challenging for teams, thereby encouraging players to seek out each other for support (a community-building measure, at least in theory).  Unfortunately, anything that makes team content more challenging also makes solo content more challenging... at a geometric rate of growth.  If we could set advance modes on all content through the notoriety system instead of strictly on a smattering of TaskForces, then players could opt into advanced enemy mechanics like they can opt in to bosses and archvillains.

The reworks thus far do seem to target particular character strengths, though: for instance, my Regen Brute handles late-game Council just fine but turns into a pile of goo against Arachnos (that's at x1, mind; I'm a filthy casual player).  Perhaps the changes are being exaggerated because they're targeting your playstyle?

[Lunar Ronin]

1 hour ago, ThatGuyCDude said:

I think a lot of the design decisions for these sorts of changes are aimed at making the game more challenging for teams, thereby encouraging players to seek out each other for support (a community-building measure, at least in theory).  Unfortunately, anything that makes team content more challenging also makes solo content more challenging... at a geometric rate of growth.  If we could set advance modes on all content through the notoriety system instead of strictly on a smattering of TaskForces, then players could opt into advanced enemy mechanics like they can opt in to bosses and archvillains.

The reworks thus far do seem to target particular character strengths, though: for instance, my Regen Brute handles late-game Council just fine but turns into a pile of goo against Arachnos (that's at x1, mind; I'm a filthy casual player).  Perhaps the changes are being exaggerated because they're targeting your playstyle?

 

It's Council vs. Masterminds.  Nu-Council are very, very nasty when soloing as a Mastermind.  That's the real issue of this thread, and it is a legitimate issue.

[ZacKing]

10 hours ago, ThatGuyCDude said:

I think a lot of the design decisions for these sorts of changes are aimed at making the game more challenging for teams, thereby encouraging players to seek out each other for support (a community-building measure, at least in theory).  Unfortunately, anything that makes team content more challenging also makes solo content more challenging... at a geometric rate of growth.

 

Right.  Moving toward the WoW model of must have tank/heal/DPS trinity to do anything.

 

10 hours ago, ThatGuyCDude said:

If we could set advance modes on all content through the notoriety system instead of strictly on a smattering of TaskForces, then players could opt into advanced enemy mechanics like they can opt in to bosses and archvillains.

 

This would be sweet, although I suspect its way too much work to implement.  Not saying HC couldn't do it, just that its a big project for a volunteer group.

[tidge]

10 hours ago, Lunar Ronin said:

 

It's Council vs. Masterminds.  Nu-Council are very, very nasty when soloing as a Mastermind.  That's the real issue of this thread, and it is a legitimate issue.

 

I'm not seeing this in my own play experience. I change my MM tactics for different content ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ .

 

Reading between the lines of the OPs posts about the MM experience, my takeaway was that difficulty (certainly spawn size, it is unclear about +level) was being turned up at somewhat low levels (earlier than 45). There simply aren't enough complicated nuCouncil appearing in a 0x1 setting to worry most MMs, at any level... unless of course there is something really poor about the henchmen slotting and/or tactics.

 

IMO, any time the team size is set above x1, we aren't talking "solo" play anymore. It is true that even a relatively modestly crafted character(*1) can often, and is expected to, in some content, solo more than one spawn at once (unintentional aggro, wanderers passing by)... and in the "good market" era of HC we can all make characters much better than "modestly crafted"... but it strikes me as a disingenuous argument to both want to turn up difficulty settings and then want to complain that the enemies are too difficult when doing exactly that.

 

(*1) As a practical matter, I'm about 50-50 on if I turn up the difficulty for my characters. Specifically on MMs, I find that it is relatively easy to turn up the spawn size after the second upgrade is available... but that doesn't mean the game is "easy mode" forever after level 26. As the enemies become more complicated after level 30, the MM has to adjust playstyles. I experience a similar sort of thing with Kheldians... the progress immediately after getting Nova form is pretty easy, because the enemies aren't able to deal with a character that has that many ranged attacks, at that level. After ~level 12, the enemies are better equipped to handle that sort of thing, and the game rebalances. It's not that enemies above level 16 are too "highly tuned" for Kheldians, it is that the game now requires a different strategy from a solo player.

[skoryy]

11 hours ago, Lunar Ronin said:

 

It's Council vs. Masterminds.  Nu-Council are very, very nasty when soloing as a Mastermind.  That's the real issue of this thread, and it is a legitimate issue.

 

Me, a blaster, with a list of the very very nasty when soloing above +0/x1:

 

 

[Laucianna]

13 hours ago, ThatGuyCDude said:

I think a lot of the design decisions for these sorts of changes are aimed at making the game more challenging for teams, thereby encouraging players to seek out each other for support (a community-building measure, at least in theory).  Unfortunately, anything that makes team content more challenging also makes solo content more challenging... at a geometric rate of growth.  If we could set advance modes on all content through the notoriety system instead of strictly on a smattering of TaskForces, then players could opt into advanced enemy mechanics like they can opt in to bosses and archvillains.

The reworks thus far do seem to target particular character strengths, though: for instance, my Regen Brute handles late-game Council just fine but turns into a pile of goo against Arachnos (that's at x1, mind; I'm a filthy casual player).  Perhaps the changes are being exaggerated because they're targeting your playstyle?

The game does already have an in game system for lowering the difficulty like you can with choosing advanced mode 🙂 You mention it yourself, it's just that for some reason people don't like to use it, instead setting it to a higher difficulty then they are comfortable with ❤️ 

[Rudra]

39 minutes ago, Laucianna said:

The game does already have an in game system for lowering the difficulty like you can with choosing advanced mode 🙂 You mention it yourself, it's just that for some reason people don't like to use it, instead setting it to a higher difficulty then they are comfortable with ❤️ 

It's seems less that they are setting a higher difficulty than they are comfortable with and more an expectation that everything should be able to solo everything at +4/x8 without any (noticeable) difficulty.

[arcane]

7 minutes ago, Rudra said:

It's seems less that they are setting a higher difficulty than they are comfortable with and more an expectation that everything should be able to solo everything at +4/x8 without any (noticeable) difficulty.

Bingo. And there’s zero reason to implement changes based on such a flawed expectation.

Edited May 25 by arcane

[tidge]

13 minutes ago, Rudra said:

It's seems less that they are setting a higher difficulty than they are comfortable with and more an expectation that everything should be able to solo everything at +4/x8 without any (noticeable) difficulty.

 

6 minutes ago, arcane said:

Bingo. And there’s zero reason to implement changes based on such a flawed expectation.

 

Don't forget: "As early a level as I want."

 

I encounter enough players in-game who quickly admit that they have bitten off more than they can chew, because they adjusted some setting upwards... could be difficulty was boosted, could be enabling AVs. I never hear such players saying the game is too hard or unfair.

[Eiko-chan]

32 minutes ago, Rudra said:

It's seems less that they are setting a higher difficulty than they are comfortable with and more an expectation that everything should be able to solo everything at +4/x8 without any (noticeable) difficulty.

I never play at +4. Higher level enemies just aren't worth the extra effort. I sometimes push up the level adjustment after I get my Rare Alpha and sometimes push it a bit higher in DA when I get the other Incarnate shifts, but that's not really playing at "+4". 

But let me restate, very, very, very, very clearly: This is not about difficulty settings. If it was about difficulty settings, I wouldn't be singling out a single enemy group.

At the same level, with the same settings, this character did just fine against UPA, IDF, and Arachnos. I didn't have huge issues with the Circle, though I'm not sure at what level their revamp really comes into play. 

 

It think the problem may mostly boil down to the fact that the Council changes come into play too early in level. They were tuned against 50s and Incarnates, and they should be facing 50s and Incarnates.

[Rudra]

1 minute ago, Eiko-chan said:

I never play at +4. Higher level enemies just aren't worth the extra effort. I sometimes push up the level adjustment after I get my Rare Alpha and sometimes push it a bit higher in DA when I get the other Incarnate shifts, but that's not really playing at "+4".

I wasn't specifically referring to you, otherwise I would have specifically called you out.

 

2 minutes ago, Eiko-chan said:

But let me restate, very, very, very, very clearly: This is not about difficulty settings. If it was about difficulty settings, I wouldn't be singling out a single enemy group.

But you keep presenting it as one.

 

2 minutes ago, Eiko-chan said:

It think the problem may mostly boil down to the fact that the Council changes come into play too early in level. They were tuned against 50s and Incarnates, and they should be facing 50s and Incarnates.

And this is not what you were saying. You were saying they need to be tuned down.

[tidge]

1 minute ago, Eiko-chan said:

But let me restate, very, very, very, very clearly: This is not about difficulty settings. If it was about difficulty settings, I wouldn't be singling out a single enemy group.

At the same level, with the same settings, this character did just fine against UPA, IDF, and Arachnos. I didn't have huge issues with the Circle, though I'm not sure at what level their revamp really comes into play.

 

What is the difficulty setting (team size and level) you have for the Council content you are struggling with, and what is the content (and level) at which you are having this trouble?

[Eiko-chan]

4 minutes ago, Rudra said:

And this is not what you were saying. You were saying they need to be tuned down.

 

Edited May 25 by Eiko-chan
Wrong link.

[Eiko-chan]

5 minutes ago, tidge said:

 

What is the difficulty setting (team size and level) you have for the Council content you are struggling with, and what is the content (and level) at which you are having this trouble?

It was the New Praetorians arc from Provost Marchand in the mid-high 30s. I did everything up to and including this at +0x8, except for the "fight the Archvillains" missions where you have to protect Pendragon and Riptide, which I turned down to x1 to make sure I could get the badges. 

[tidge]

Did you have teammates? Running at 0x8 is turning up the difficulty.

[PeregrineFalcon]

1 hour ago, Eiko-chan said:

I never play at +4. Higher level enemies just aren't worth the extra effort.

 

Wait, what?

 

On 5/8/2024 at 3:03 PM, Eiko-chan said:

But this isn't an issue of skill. I have builds that solo AVs and +4/x8.

 

So which one is it?

 

On 5/9/2024 at 6:44 AM, Eiko-chan said:

This is factually incorrect. I solo /x8 with almost all my characters, because that is what I build for.

 

Ok, well Council or not you should at least get your story straight before posting on the forums.

[Luminara]

2 hours ago, tidge said:

I encounter enough players in-game who quickly admit that they have bitten off more than they can chew,

 

[Eiko-chan]

30 minutes ago, PeregrineFalcon said:

So which one is it?

I should have said that can solo at +4/x8. I could do it. I choose not to. 

[PeregrineFalcon]

2 minutes ago, Eiko-chan said:

I should have said that can solo at +4/x8. I could do it. I choose not to. 

But how do you know that you can if you never do?

[Eiko-chan]

Just now, PeregrineFalcon said:

But how do you know that you can if you never do?

Because I did it, went "okay, that was way more work than I want to be doing", and stopped?

[WuTang]

I guess this is my newbness shining through, since I only started playing back in January or February; and, didn't know how to level, it was months before I had a 50. All that being said, I don't really remember these mobs being ROFLstomp easy. BUT, if they are too difficult don't solo at +4/8. If you are soloing ain't nobody gonna know but you that you can't handle max level. Also, the complaining sounds more like hurt pride than anything else. Sort of like that dude in the gym that just failed to bench 225 then hops up explaining to anyone that'll listen how just last week he rep'd it out.

If you prefer rolling solo and find you're in over your head just dial it back to ROFLstomp +2/6 and come out the other side and regale us all with the tale of how you bravely faced the unfaceable at +4/8. Ain't nobody gonna call you on it...well, I mean....we might now that we know you can't.

Also, the game is pretty awesome.

Now go out there and smash some heads!

Edited May 25 by WuTang

[Bionic_Flea]

Since the topic title is "High Level Enemy Group Revamps" not just nuCouncil, let me submit a rant for nuCoT.

 

I've been running some tests in an AE arc I made and one of the missions has high level CoT.  OMG.  One Death Mage is pretty bad and can quickly drop your tohit where you are missing the majority of the time, which makes it difficult to get rid of them and stop the debuffs, especially on melee characters.  If you get more than one, and it happens more than i think it should, you now have hit chances in the teens or single digits.  At that point you have to run or have a counter for -tohit . . . or die . . . especially on dark melee who needs to hit to get the benefits of [Soul Drain].  Being a stubborn bug, I died a few times before I started running and trying to split up the mages so that I didn't have stacking overlapping [Chill of the Night] auras, which I think are auto hit.  And sometimes you get whole groups of ghosts, although they didn't seem to be as problematic as boss Death Mages.  (Anyone know how much a +4 Death Mage boss's Chill will do?  I think base it's -30 tohit)

 

And yes, I was playing at +4/x8 and I know that I can turn it down, or get Ageless, or have different inspirations, or get teammates.  But none of that is the point.  The point is that I could solo them at +4/x8 previously on these same characters and now I can't or have to work a lot harder for it.  Some folks like that old stuff is getting harder.  I don't. 

 

Make new stuff as hard as you like but please stop making me change the way I've been playing for years and years.  I'm old, stubborn, and crotchety.  I don't want to learn new tricks, or respec, or whatever to run the same stuff I've been running for 20 years.  I think you are more likely to lose me for changing too much than changing too little.  I am all for more hardmode/advanced mode content and adding the TF/Ouro difficulty settings to regular arcs (with reasonable increased rewards).  But please, leave the old stuff alone.

[Rudra]

25 minutes ago, Bionic_Flea said:

Since the topic title is "High Level Enemy Group Revamps" not just nuCouncil, let me submit a rant for nuCoT.

 

I've been running some tests in an AE arc I made and one of the missions has high level CoT.  OMG.  One Death Mage is pretty bad and can quickly drop your tohit where you are missing the majority of the time, which makes it difficult to get rid of them and stop the debuffs, especially on melee characters.  If you get more than one, and it happens more than i think it should, you now have hit chances in the teens or single digits.  At that point you have to run or have a counter for -tohit . . . or die . . . especially on dark melee who needs to hit to get the benefits of [Soul Drain].  Being a stubborn bug, I died a few times before I started running and trying to split up the mages so that I didn't have stacking overlapping [Chill of the Night] auras, which I think are auto hit.  And sometimes you get whole groups of ghosts, although they didn't seem to be as problematic as boss Death Mages.  (Anyone know how much a +4 Death Mage boss's Chill will do?  I think base it's -30 tohit)

 

And yes, I was playing at +4/x8 and I know that I can turn it down, or get Ageless, or have different inspirations, or get teammates.  But none of that is the point.  The point is that I could solo them at +4/x8 previously on these same characters and now I can't or have to work a lot harder for it.  Some folks like that old stuff is getting harder.  I don't. 

 

Make new stuff as hard as you like but please stop making me change the way I've been playing for years and years.  I'm old, stubborn, and crotchety.  I don't want to learn new tricks, or respec, or whatever to run the same stuff I've been running for 20 years.  I think you are more likely to lose me for changing too much than changing too little.  I am all for more hardmode/advanced mode content and adding the TF/Ouro difficulty settings to regular arcs (with reasonable increased rewards).  But please, leave the old stuff alone.

https://cod.uberguy.net/html/power.html?power=circleofthorns.circle_death_ranged.chill_of_the_night

[Luminara]

1 hour ago, Bionic_Flea said:

I've been running some tests in an AE arc I made and one of the missions has high level CoT.  OMG.  One Death Mage is pretty bad and can quickly drop your tohit where you are missing the majority of the time, which makes it difficult to get rid of them and stop the debuffs, especially on melee characters.  If you get more than one, and it happens more than i think it should, you now have hit chances in the teens or single digits.

 

That's not new behavior.  You could get up to 4 Death Mages at */x8 in regular content before.

 

 

 

Those are from 9/9/2022.