What AT is best for tanking multiple groups? 'cause "Tank" ain't it.

[Erratic1]

10 minutes ago, Eiko-chan said:

What about 3? Because it takes 3 Foot Stomps to match a Shield Charge and a Foot Stomp. 

 

I think 3 would have left the target still standing but low at life. Granted, I ran in cold, with no Fury and first Foot Stomp was without Rage. Still, I did nothing else until Foot Stomp had cycled, building Fury by being attacked while waiting and then popping Rage once it had. IIRC the hit was for 252 damage. 

 

My usual routine is to Foot Stomp and immediately follow with Stalagmites. Combine with the damage aura from Bio and usually things are pretty weakened by the time Foot Stomp comes back around.

 

Edit: Pulled the video out of the Recycle Bin and checked. Was 265 damage and about half the life of a +0 target at about 50% Fury. So two Foot Stomps, at full Fury, would suffice to down a +0.

Edited May 14 by Erratic1

[Snarky]

1 hour ago, Eiko-chan said:

What about 3? Because it takes 3 Foot Stomps to match a Shield Charge and a Foot Stomp. 

If you enhance Foot Stomp shouldn't even be a problem...

 

[Bio-Link]

Do we really need tanks for ordinary mobs anymore? i end up regularly tanking on stalker or dom on normal runs(+4)

 

in my experience tanks are only really needed on starred stuff to take that big 1 shot hit, or can you guys tank a 4star boss baddie on ya ff blaster?

[Kismette]

1 hour ago, Bio-Link said:

Do we really need tanks for ordinary mobs anymore? i end up regularly tanking on stalker or dom on normal runs(+4)

 

in my experience tanks are only really needed on starred stuff to take that big 1 shot hit, or can you guys tank a 4star boss baddie on ya ff blaster?

 

Are you talking about a 50 with a finished build? Fully IO'ed with at least 3rd-tier incarnate abilities?  Then most of the time, yes, any AT can 'tank' even on an empathy defender

(depending on enemy mobs 😛) - this one here is one of.... Linea(?}'s builds, it's old and there may already be improved or better ones.

 

Taking on +4's at lower levels as you level might be more difficult though, ....depending on AT.

 

OH! 4 stars! ....I don't think I've ever done a 4 star TF yet 😥

Edited May 14 by Kismette

[ZemX]

1 hour ago, Bio-Link said:

Do we really need tanks for ordinary mobs anymore? i end up regularly tanking on stalker or dom on normal runs(+4)

 

No single AT is "needed".  But no other AT has as much ability to tank as a Tanker.   Tanking is getting and keeping aggro on  team and THEN surviving it.   When most people say their ____ other AT can tank, they mean they have soft-capped defense or something that will 19 times out of 20 keep them alive after an alpha strike.   Tankers do better than that against more and different types of enemies.

 

Do you need that?  No, but you don't need anything else either.  Certainly not at 50 with IOs and Incarnates.  Toss together any mix of eight incarnates, set it to +4... and snooze your way through it.  Long as it's not a hard mode, anyway.

 

ETA: Just to be clear, this has been the case for ordinary content forever, not just post 50, Incarnates, yadda yadda.  It's just MORE face-roll easy with all that now than before.  But you can read back on threads about the "holy trinity" and how it's not needed in this game.  That goes back to day 1.  Tanking is just one way to protect a team.  Buffs/Debuffs/Control are others.   Good ole' kille'em before they kill you works too.  

Edited May 14 by ZemX

[Erratic1]

1 hour ago, Kismette said:

Are you talking about a 50 with a finished build? Fully IO'ed wit

 

Surviving and tanking are different things.

 

Tanking means things want to attack you, not your fellow team members. If my character hitting something you are "tanking" means that thing now wants to kill my character, you are not tanking.

 

[Kismette]

25 minutes ago, Erratic1 said:

 

Surviving and tanking are different things.

 

Tanking means things want to attack you, not your fellow team members. If my character hitting something you are "tanking" means that thing now wants to kill my character, you are not tanking.

 

 

Agreed, I did say "can 'tank' " as in a solo mission setting.  So yes, surviving would've been the better definition there when in a team.  Nothing beats a tank at tanking after all.... some brutes, maybe...?

Edited May 14 by Kismette

[Snarky]

Taunt.  Brutes and Tanks get the “real” taunt power.  It actually works.  Really well.  One of the strange idiosyncrasies of CoH is enemies are more “taunted” by the duration, not the magnitude.  I can pull giant monsters from way away that are fighting 8 league mates back to the main scrum in a Hami raid with a simple taunt.  All their agro means nothing.  
 

Master badge runs.  A Tank can hover taunt over the AV in Eden and keep everyone from getting mauled by the AV stomp power, which it will not use.  Easy master badge.  Works to reduce Marauder’s giant AoE in Lamda as well by 80-100% depending on other ATs and players in league letting you do it.  Tanking Lord Recluse in MoMLTF.  Gonna do that on a “ I always Tank with my _______?”

 

A Tank is not always needed.  But there are situations where a Tank shines. Also, any steamroll team enjoys the simple push blade of a good Tank/Brute up front.  My strategy is to move to the next main mob to be burned when enemies are 85-90% crushed.  Gives me time to taunt and gather while everyone mops up.  Then the team has a nice AoE target.  
 

You play your way.  Enjoy.  These are a few of the situations where I think a Tank provides an ability other ATs will struggle and possibly fail to do.  
 

Do you “always need a tank?”   No. No, you do not. 

Edited May 14 by Snarky

[Lightslinger]

Regarding the discussion about Tanks at high level being less necessary; in my experience having a good Tanker on any team makes everything go smoother.

[tidge]

1 hour ago, ZemX said:

 

No single AT is "needed".  But no other AT has as much ability to tank as a Tanker.   Tanking is getting and keeping aggro on  team and THEN surviving it.   When most people say their ____ other AT can tank, they mean they have soft-capped defense or something that will 19 times out of 20 keep them alive after an alpha strike.   Tankers do better than that against more and different types of enemies.

 

17 minutes ago, Snarky said:

A Tank is not always needed.  But there are situations where a Tank shines. 

 

You play your way.  Enjoy.  These are a few of the situations where I think a Tank provides an ability other ATs will struggle and possibly fail to do.  
 

Do you “always need a tank?”   No. No, you do not. 

 

I'm with them... there is one other instance of "I can tank  ____ with my (not a Tanker)" that I somewhat commonly see; that is a (perma-)Dominator, usually with some sort of Confuse.

 

IMO, that's Control, not Tanking. I'm not saying it can't work in a lot of content, I'm just saying it isn't Tanking.

[Aeroprism]

Tanking over 16 mobs is actually super easy.

Bring a second tank.

Bye.

[Snarky]

30 minutes ago, Aeroprism said:

Tanking over 16 mobs is actually super easy.

Bring a second tank.

Bye.

glad you added that 'something'

[Aeroprism]

I aim to please.

(With perma 5% chance of missing)

[Kismette]

19 hours ago, Snarky said:

glad you added that 'something'

 

Taunt with Presence > Provoke 😛

[Zect]

On 5/11/2024 at 1:52 AM, kryori said:

I'm returning after 5ish years, and it looks to me like the threat cap has been clamped way down on Homecoming.  This keeps a tank from holding threat on more than 16 targets, taunts or no taunts.  In an 8 player TF/SF this means it only takes one extra pack to have problems a tank can't solve with agro on the healer, on anyone who used a rain power, etc.

 

That makes my tanks feel about as useful as a brute or scrapper in most situations- if you're just there to get your face smashed by the EB/AV during the period where they can't be controlled, you don't need the overkill levels of defense and resistance that tanks trade damage for.

 

The answer to this is using good aoe dps to kill off some critters and reduce enemy numbers under the target cap. Homecoming tankers have increased melee damage scalar (.95, or 95% of blaster melee damage) plus increased radius and target cap on their melee cones and epic aoes to facilitate this. In turn, high dps contributes to the tanker's survivability by reducing incoming dps, as dead mobs do 0 damage - equivalent to 100% resistance.

 

Dps is an integral part of tanking these days, and I refer to both the AT and the holy trinity MMO role. A pure meat shield has been a very niche application outside of hami raids for years now. Even in content with really high incoming dps, like 4* TF's, tankers still want to kill the AV's and critical mobs quickly while the mitigation they get from ally buffs dwarfs whatever they could get from set bonuses. I don't necessarily think it is good for coh to become about dps over everything else, as a game that could potentially sport such a diversity of build designs and playstyles and one that has historically not had strict dps checks, but this is simply the way HC is right now.

 

Edited May 17 by Zect

[DanaDark]

TL;DR: OP wants the limit on threat to be removed.

Actual Solution: OP should try a team with a different composition than 1 tank + 7 blasters. He'd find debuffing, CONTROL, and even another tank or an added brute/scrapper goes a long way.

I love my tanks. Favorite AT. They rock. They were overtuned and rock too hard IMO but I wont not play them for it. Agro limit is perfectly fine as is. Don't do dumb and/or bring more ATs that can help handle extra mobs.

As someone said... why is this a thread?

[OverkillEngine]

Hell they could still roll with one tank and 7 Blasters, it's just they can't have the latter picking their noses and waiting for the tank to herd the entire map for them to nova once anymore.

[ZemX]

8 hours ago, DanaDark said:

TL;DR: OP wants the limit on threat to be removed.

 

Probably, but not what they asked.   Then again there's no real answer to the question they DID ask.  They want an AT that can handle aggro better than a tanker and there really isn't one.  But even if asked a bit differently, what other AT can control more enemies than a Tanker?  Controllers obviously.  But they don't survive as well in as many diverse situations.  MMs can have more aggro than a single AT thanks to their pets but they have no means of holding that aggro when just about anyone on the team can outdamage one of their pets.

 

Real answer? Play smarter.  If I had a nickel for every time a PuG I was on just barreled past my Tanker when I stop short of a dangerous room... I'd have a lot of nickels.   I mean, I can even be well ahead of the team and I'll stop short and try to pull a group out of the room ahead to avoid double (or sometimes triple) spawn aggro... and the DPS squirrels will just shoot past me and immolate themselves amid a group of about 30-40 enemies.

 

You'd think some would notice that the Tanker who had previously been cannonballing into every spawn with apparent reckless abandon suddenly stopped short and tossed out a Taunt... but few do.

[Doomguide2005]

1 hour ago, ZemX said:

You'd think some would notice that the Tanker who had previously been cannonballing into every spawn with apparent reckless abandon suddenly stopped short and tossed out a Taunt... but few do.

But, but I'm  ... oh that's inconceivable!

[MHertz]

How can you reliably and safely hold aggro beyond the limits the game was balanced for? Well, I don’t think you can, nor do I think you should. If you’re taking on 3 or 4 groups simultaneously and you’re never in any danger, then I’m tempted to ask “then what would be a threat?” How do you balance a giant monster or an archvillain around the idea that a) it’s dangerous and b) a single character can take on 50+ mobs at once? That’s just a recipe for making Tankers required for any serious content, and that’s not a design philosophy this game goes for.

 

The other question is this: What is the rest of your team doing while you’re holding aggro on 50 enemies? If you’ve got Defenders and Controllers and Corruptors on your team, they’re also helping protect the squishies. If you have Dominators or Corruptors or Blasters, they’re dealing big damage so holding aggro isn’t so important. If you’ve got Brutes or Scrappers or Masterminds, they’re helping. And if you’ve got another Tanker, why do you need to do it all yourself? I’m confused.

 

I guess it comes down to the feeling you get when you take on 50 at once. You feel powerful. I get it. It’s a mighty role when you can protect your entire team (of slackers and layabouts who contribute nothing) while you stand fast against an enemy horde all by your lonesome, standing in place and swinging your fists and never running out of enemies. It feels less powerful to have teammates that contribute so much that you have to run around and pick off stragglers one by one. (This happens because your teammates are good at their jobs too.) You presumably want all the focus on you, to maximize everyone’s AOEs and to make big numbers appear around you. But that’s super hard to balance around.

Edited May 20 by MHertz