How do we fail new players?

[roleki]

1 hour ago, Seed22 said:

Hey look! One of em took the bait. But seriously, a PSA for everyone out there: for YOU it may be about the journey, and that’s awesome! But remember, this isn’t a terribly active MMO developmentally speaking. The beginning that you keep praising? 20 years old at this point.
 

There aren’t that many new players I imagine who will look at it and go “oh boy this is great!” No, they’ll see how old and clunky and boring it is and either PL to 50 and run endgame/maybe some older stuff exemping, or quit. 
 

 

 

Every bit of that.  I played on Live from Issue 2 through Issue 16.  I burned out on "the journey" back when "the journey" was stand around and wait for a tank to bless your team with its presence, you do THIS guy's Frostfire, then THIS guy's Frostfire, then THIS guy's Frostfire, and by the time YOUR Frostfire rolls around, everyone on the team has out-leveled it and is running to Atlas to train and log off, then you're stuck with a -3 Frostfire mission that nobody wants to do.  

 

No thanks, I've journey'd quite enough. 

Whoever is still enamored with "the journey" that's great, I don't begrudge them that.  But just because THEY are still tickled pink every time their contact in AP tells them to go speak to someone in KR, only to be subsequently dispatched to the farthest fucking corner of Perez Park to get a gizmo, doesn't mean everyone SHOULD be excited for that - especially if they were originally burned out by this sequence of events before Fitness was Inherent and you didn't get your travel power until after you'd walked the entire length of Perez Park.  

 

We have each of us farted in the tub at one time and found it humorous, but fun as that is, many of us eventually move on to farting in the shower.  You don't pull open my curtain and I will save some hot water for you.

[Neiska]

8 hours ago, cranebump said:

I don’t think it’s difficult to understand, and if you want to do that, go ahead. But let’s admit this: a farm mish is as much a hamster wheel as anything else (maybe more so). Since the goal is only to try other power combinations, then one wheel is admittedly as good as another, because content doesn’t matter.* Which means all the work put into the city itself doesn’t matter. I find this just tragic, and would like new players to at least give the actual, whole game a chance, at least once, out of respect for what’s been built here. But you can’t enforce that. People gonna do what they gonna do. Including arguing incessantly over what the game’s end goal is, when we all know that the end goal is what each person thinks it is. It’s entirely subjective. That said, I think there’s more than enough advocates for the two major camps to present a new player with whatever information they might want in order to allow them to play their way. There’s a possibility they might try everything, as, I imagine, a lot of us do, and have. 

*If it really is just about character building, can’t a person instantly create and test such things using the beta tester? (Genuinely curious)

 

I agree that both farming and other content can both be hampster wheels. I suppose the difference is how much a person enjoys each activity. One mans wheel of pain is anothers enjoyment and all that.

 

As far as "other content doesnt matter" and such, I would point out that other content HAS been enjoyed by many many people, and likely will continue to be enjoyed by many many more. Some for the first time, others for the 50th time. (Not that the number matters either.) I never said new players shouldn't play open world content, start to finish. I agree its an amazing ride! I am only against new players being pushed in that direction, when it should be their choice. The same choice as red or blue and so on.

 

On your final point, "why not build on beta" well I can only answer that for myself - simply because I like to play with my group of friends. Sure, you can use beta to level up and test things out and move things around, all immediately to. But you don't get to enjoy them on missions, or with friends, and so on. So for me personally, it isn't about just building. Its about building, and enjoying that build, either by myself, or with friends, in the content of our choosing.  And I think that is pretty normal for most groups of friends who play games together.

 

But while at lunch today, I did a bit of napkin math, just for fun. Using my own "playtime" experience. I doubt this is normal for everyone, but it is what is normal for me.

 

So lets have fun with some math -

I have 3 accounts, each with at least 10 full t3 and enhanced characters. Some has more but let's go with 30 for these calculations.

Now, I play about 4 or 5 hours a day, 6 days a week. I may play a little more, or a little less, but that's a ballpark number for me. So that's 26 hours a week, thereabouts.

The last time I leveled a character to 50 non-PL/AE, was purely through Ouros. I did use the 2x EXP buff, but it was solo, and no power leveling was involved. I wasn't grinding very hard, so it took about 4-5 weeks, off and on. Again, "ballpark" figure here.

So that's 26 hours a week, for 4.5 weeks. (going average numbers here, or best guess average for my personal playtime.) that's 117 hours.

So, for my "chill mode" play style, non-power leveling, is 117 hours, per character. (Just to get to level 50, not counting incarnates and stuff, or grinding money for the build. This is pure EXP here).

At 117 hours per character, with 30 characters, is 3,510 hours. Or 146.25 DAYS (24/hours day) to get 30 level 50 characters.

If I leveled all 30 of my characters in the exact same way, at 4.5 hours a day, 6 days a week, it would take 780 DAYS (4.5 hours a day) of play. That is over TWO YEARS of playing 6 days a week, at 4 and a half hours per day.

 

This isn't playing other games, this isn't doing other activities, this isn't watching movies or spending time with friends or family. This is 100% playing City of Heros. More than TWO YEARS of play, to get the characters that I could have otherwise, in much less time. This isn't even the MONEY needed to fully slot them, or even incarnate them. This is just pure grinding, 1-50, alone, in Ouros, with 2x exp buff.

 

There are better ways to level I am sure we can all agree, but this is the last character I leveled 1-50 myself, and the only one I really kept track of how long it took. I am sure doing TFs and doing other activities would be faster, teaming with other people and so on. But not everyone teams with other people. Not everyone does those other things. Many people play entirely alone too.

 

I would call that a pretty eye-opening amount of time. Now, this is all "napkin" math, and uses only my personal hobby time as an example here. These figures are going to vary for everyone, wildly I should expect.

 

Now, I have been playing for more than 4 years. So the bigger question I suppose is, how much time do people think it should take, going from 1 to 50, doing different activities? Solo vs Teaming? Ouros vs Open World? AE vs Contact? PI teaming, and so on.

 

Again, 100% pure napkin math here, and these figures are in no way meant to demonstrate what the typical time it takes to level 1-50 for people. Only what it took me for my last character, with my usual amount of playtime. I just wanted to show the math behind the "why do you like doing AE/farming so much?" Well for me, it's because there are so MANY combinations of powers, ATs, etc, there are many, many that I want to do. And if I leveled them the "ye old fashioned way" in my limited "hobby time" available to me, well, I would likely be in the Nursing home, calling over the nurse to watch me tank Hami or something. Possibly saying something like "Sorry team but I have to go. It's time for my meds and my nap now."

 

That is an incredible amount of expected investment of time in a game that is free to play, with up to 1000-character slots. I genuinely wonder if anyone ever actually HAS leveled 1000 level 50 characters. Even with farming, that would be a monumental undertaking, taking a few years to complete I would expect.

 

Anyway, I hope math helps with the optics here. "Why do you like farming?" Because I don't want to be in my 90s and still haven't finished trying the powersets and ATs out that I am interested in, that's why.

Edited June 11 by Neiska

[Herotu]

3 hours ago, tidge said:

 

I'll repeat: There are plenty of ways for players, old and new, to ease past this "hump", should they ask:

1. 2xp
2. Patrol XP (easily gained through exploration badges)
3. Teaming up... there are almost always TFs and SFs being formed
4. Running lower level arcs through Ouroboros, or Safeguards/Mayhems, or Tips
5. Turning up spawn size (mileage will vary depending on the character)

Combining just the first two, and playing some missions, makes leveling rather speedy.

 

"New" players may not know this, but many of the accolades are to be had by playing 35+ content. Those aren't things that can be earned by door-sitting.

Thanks for helping with the issue, that's good infos. I think, however, the point was that the hump is something the devs could/should flatten out i.e. that the hump itself should not exist.

[Luminara]

24 minutes ago, Herotu said:

the hump itself should not exist.

 

Prude.

[tidge]

58 minutes ago, Herotu said:

Thanks for helping with the issue, that's good infos. I think, however, the point was that the hump is something the devs could/should flatten out i.e. that the hump itself should not exist.

 

I can understand this, to an extent... but I have a different opinion, formed by some perspectives that may not apply equally, or to everyone.

 

(1) Because it is so easy to level up to 25+, I don't mind having a slow period to play "content catch up"

 

(2) Between 25 and 30 is pretty much where I feel like the character is fully tricked out, at least with powers. I won't fault people for craving Epic/Patron powers, or wanting maximum slots, but I want time to play with what I consider to be the cornerstones of my build.

 

(3) There is some important IMO content to get! level 26 is when you can guarantee Summon Teammates for example. Level 30 are when the store contacts start unlocking. The TIP missions have wonderful flavor, and you can't get the 20-29 or 30-39 once you out-level them.

 

(4) The Recipe drops are important for some decent badges between 22 and 31... and at this point it should be easy to start crafting/selling on the AH. I want those drops between 35 and 50 for marketeering!

 

(5) I revisit parts of the Lore that I've forgotten, in a more organic way than using any secrets I have been entrusted with. Some of the best Lore starts at level 30. Red Side especially. Much of the regular mission content can be a lot of fun on teams!

 

 

[Trainee Frostbite]

On 6/10/2024 at 3:29 PM, Neiska said:

An analogy, if you will -

 

"Here we have Coke and Pepsi. We can't let new people pick Coke, even if that's what they would want, because they don't know about Pepsi. And we cannot let them choose Coke for themselves, because we can speak self-assuredly that we know absolutely what is in their own best interests. We know for absolute certain that they should and would all pick Pepsi, without exception. We need to remove Coke from the menu immediately."

 

 

 

And if the player in fact likes or would've liked New Coke, or New Pepsi, or loves Dr. Pepper? Heck, Tab came back. What about RC Cola, one of my favourites; something the friend who showed me the beauty of RPGs in junior high school and I shared by the case while he helped teach me how gaming systems worked beyond the content creation I loved to do starting out?

 

Granted, I'm not quite of a vintage by age or player veterancy as a microcomputer or tabletop RPGer that IRL the choice was in range even when I got started, but the point is that if a choice or configuration that best suits a player or their preference of playstyle is summarily dismissed or excised from the core, agreed rules, mechanics or UI/UX- even if it's something that by practical use or personal druthers bears no poverty of presence if it's kept, even for a fragment of the active playerbase or hypothetically even a single player for whom this could be a breakthrough efficiency or reason to get their skin in the game in renewed enthusiasm and novelty or a healthy reactivant of personal interest- what is actually lost or provided in handicap if it doesn't slow down or otherwise affect the game's operation or anyone else's playstyle or choices within those agreed rules to retain them?

 

Do we embrace a functional democracy wherein the most vulnerable people who come to our hearths with eager but doubtful hearts to our table and are lost in the reduction of frills that to them aren't frills, but their way back home to themselves? I don't think gaming is ever worthy of that conceit, not in a healthy sense or profession of posterity. I don't want to argue about why I need something specific to play, I want to play and not be nitpicked the moment I ask for help- within reason and those agreed rules- or be asked what I want, apparently in honest request, then have my needs and desires shot down because it doesn't fit the mold or might tend to break it. 

 

Novelty's great if it comes with the open hand of respect of personal choice and bound personal responsiblity. Take away that choice or deny it to anybody and it stops being fun for them, and it doesn't affect you, right? Until it's your turn to have your choices put through the steamhammer of frill-reduction, and then it's gonna feel really relevant.

 

I mean, I don't want to quote Eric Lensherr, of all people, about why humanity loves its terribly slippery slopes, because even though I think Magneto was as right for him as Charles Xavier was for his purposes in fighting the good fight, the point is that we're capable of so much more. And this is a superhero game, MMORPG and the like. Shouldn't we do the very least, and then try to do better, if the most significant impact is somebody who might've jumped ship stays on board and lends their voice to the game's tapestry?

 

-Junior Frosty, Extremely Heavy Lifter/Physics Brick.

 

 

Edited June 18 by Trainee Frostbite

[Ukase]

On 6/11/2024 at 12:19 PM, roleki said:

how old and clunky

This just blows my mind. 

So, candidly speaking, having gone from 1-50 organically at least 200 hundred times - I have the right to get a little bored with certain content. 
But a new player? Nah, I don't think so. There are at least 10-20 different paths a new character can go, and with all the different AT & powerset combos, I'd think they'd be busy with something new, or a different perspective of the same thing for at least a year. (unless they play all day, every day - I can't imagine what that would be like. ) 

 

[Ukase]

On 6/11/2024 at 10:29 AM, Pleonast said:

The problem is the “hump” in missions in the upper level range.

Opinions will certainly vary. 
It's no secret that I afk-farm from time to time. I even actively farmed from time to time until I found out how to afk-farm. (thank you @payload, for the idea)
But, more often than not, I play leveling up through content. 

Now, it's not lost on me that when you hit the late 30's and early 40's, there can seem to be a hump to get over. I don't see that as a negative, or an obstacle as something to overcome. I see it as an opportunity to get more merits! 


 

[roleki]

5 hours ago, Ukase said:

Puppy dog tails and rainbows

 

I understand this game is as complex as Factorio, but, as a community that prides itself on how far it can disappear up its own ass telling each other how great of a community it is, maybe instead of looking askance of these neophytes who were forced into early puberty by scummy farmers who hang out at the bus station waiting for new players to arrive, perhaps we could each of us guide these poor misused souls towards the sacred knowledge we learned the hard way, the RiGHT way, through bitter experience of doing it repeatedly with shit-eating smiles on our faces.

[Ukase]

42 minutes ago, roleki said:

Puppy dog tails and rainbows

 

42 minutes ago, roleki said:

I understand this game is as complex as Factorio, but, as a community that prides itself on how far it can disappear up its own ass telling each other how great of a community it is, maybe instead of looking askance of these neophytes who were forced into early puberty by scummy farmers who hang out at the bus station waiting for new players to arrive, perhaps we could each of us guide these poor misused souls towards the sacred knowledge we learned the hard way, the RiGHT way, through bitter experience of doing it repeatedly with shit-eating smiles on our faces.

Fixed that for you. 
I never wrote what you indicated I did anywhere at any time.