How do we fail new players?

[mechahamham]

Over the recent long day weekend, I noticed a large uptick in new players. I answered as many questions as I could in /help and was as welcoming as I could be. However, I noticed some oddities that made me think we, as a community, are failing our newest members. We're doing things that harm them and NOT doing things that would help them.

 

I noticed one person advertising in help chat, "I've gotten level 50. So now what do I need to do to equip my character and start enjoying the game?"

We've failed that person. They're level 50 and want to START enjoying the game. They've missed most of the game on their first character. If they're lucky, they'll be introduced to taskforces and the flashback system. If not, they'll discover that a lot of level 50 players do nothing but the same two trials over and over, get bored and leave the game because it seems like there's nothing to do compared to other MMOs. We can hope they make more characters to experience more of the game.

 

A significant number of players take pride in powerlevelling anyone they can. They feel they're helping others by doing so, or even giving them a gift. In games where all the content is biased towards the end of the game, that might be true. For CoH players who've experienced the game's content many times over, that might be true. For new players who haven't really had much experience with the game, powerlevelling them means we're robbing their character of the missions that are not in Ouroboros flashback system. It means we're taking away a relatively gentle learning curve and expecting them to learn their character at level 50.

 

The answer to keep this situation from happening is pretty straightforward. Don't advertise free powerlevelling. The players who WANT powerlevelling will still ask for it, and are not shy about doing so. People who want to powerlevel as a 'gift' will still have every opportunity to do so, even if they don't advertise.

 

More recently, I saw a farmer encouraging a new player to play a character 'the long way' rather than powerlevelling. They explained that they wanted the newbie to enjoy the game and to stay for the long haul, and that they felt the best way to do that was to learn the game organically. That's the best solution, in my opinion. We ALL need to communicate to new players that the game's content and major story does NOT begin at max level the way some others do.

 

What ways do you see that we fail new players and what are your suggestions for fixing those problems?

Edited June 4 by mechahamham

[kelika2]

I highly doubt that the complexities of explaining the MMO treadmill would work here.  It wont work ingame.

Now factor in the person in question was trolling to begin with since that is also a popular meme from everquest and warcraft.

 

This project has been out for 5 years now and people come, people realize it was not what they remembered and people go.  Few stay.

 

Plus you wont get people to slow down, i tried a few suggestions to stop speed task forces in the past and was met with overwhelming negativity.

[GM Crumpet]

People play how they play. Sadly for a lot of modern players they expect the grind to 50 to be the difficult part and the fun to start once that's over. Despite all the advice (from myself quite regularly) new players still think there is some magic after 50 and get disappointed when they realise that that's basically it. From now on it's task forces, iTrials and mothership raids. There is still plenty to do at 50, but you need to have worked your way up and spent a lot of inf to enjoy them. I see accounts a month old with a dozen or more 50's. I automatically assume they power levelled up as there is no way they can get that many that quickly. Are they enjoying the game? I hope so. Fingers crossed they get bored sitting in a farm and start actually playing. 

[MoonSheep]

OP - be prepared for this thread to quickly turn into an argument

 

to some people, PL’ing to 50, making a farmer and then spending their all their time in AE just PL’ing alts is the game and what they enjoy. for some, just churning through fat mobs is a laugh and to them it’s worth logging on for

 

i agree with you that the game and journey itself is highly rewarding and therefore finding the fastest way to 50 means newer players miss out on the CoH experience

 

people will pick up the game over time and can make new alts to properly experience the game if they want to give it a go a second time around. it tends to be a minority of players, they’re just very visible as they spam LFG scrounging to get PL’d every 17 seconds

[biostem]

53 minutes ago, mechahamham said:

We've failed that person.

"We" haven't failed anybody.  Everyone who plays this game, last time I checked, needs to be an adult, or if under 18, have parental supervision.  As such, any conduct by a person in-game is their own responsibility.  If you wanna PL to 50 yet haven't done any low-level content, then that's on you.  If you, OP, want to advertise some sort of free service where you help these "misguided" people, then knock yourself out, but don't try to lump everyone together as if we have some collective responsibility to "help" those that choose to play in a way that you don't approve of...

[Neiska]

Boy oh boy, I foresee absolutely no way that this topic might run off the rails. Gee, I sure hope people will refrain from being judgmental of how other people enjoy hobbies and understand that not everyone likes the same things. What can possibly go wrong?

 

Here is an unrelated image.

 

[starro]

I still believe all these years later there is no wrong way to play COH.  Solo/ group, easy/difficult settings, same old build/new weird builds etc etc. 
 

However, there are less optimal methods to play with less reward or less personal joy.   Do I want to be critical of those methods?  Yes, because I am an old evil judgmental starfish.  
 

No, I want to encourage new and old players to replay the COH content and look through the game with a different lens each time… or replay the game in a comfortable familiar way.  You damn kids will do whatever you want anyway. 

[Ukase]

The truth is - "we", nor you, have failed anyone in this game. At least, not how you think. 

I'm pretty much a jerk unless I deliberately try to be polite. And I do try to be polite more often than not. On the help channel, I will see questions asked just as many of you do. And the failing I see is when someone uses their own experiences with the RNG to dictate a "best" or "Optimal" path for the one asking the question. 

I know it's just a help chat channel, and typing large walls of text is time consuming and not necessarily for anyone's best interest. But sometimes, the answers given are not the best answer. They're not even the right answer sometimes! 

And I'm guilty of this as much as anyone else. I'll see the question flow by, and I'll think I read it properly, but I answer a quick reply without scrolling up to be sure I'm answering the question properly. Most of the time, I'm in a mission, I'll see the question, and as I'm typing, I start taking damage, and I'll pay more attention to whichever is the more interesting thing. Sometimes the question, sometimes the combat. Every now and then, I have to apologize when I get it wrong, and thank Flea for being able to read and comprehend better than I do. 

As an example, let's take the good ol' shard vs. thread debate. 
One player does MSRs and Hami Raids in the hive. (shard drop rates against mitos are 1 to 13.xxx) They get plenty of shards. 
Another player finds MSRs and clearing mitos to be a snoozefest. If they do a hami at all, it's the zerg strat in the abyss. And they do speedy tinpex and itf. If they see shards, they don't even pay them any attention. They use threads, because they see those drop all the time. 
Another player uses t-merits to just unlock everything but hybrid and gets to +3 five minutes after they ding 50. They laugh at these people arguing. 

The entire channel devolves into what's "optimal" or "most efficient". They no longer care about answering any questions. They just want to be right. And they want their right way to be the right way for everyone - when it will rarely be right for everyone. 

To me, this is the biggest way where we fail our new players. Meanwhile, the new player is "what are these guys even talking about with all this alphabet soup acronyms?" 
We're so busy thinking about how right we are, we've lost sight of the player actually looking for information, not e-peen size. 
 

[Seed22]

4 hours ago, mechahamham said:

Over the recent long day weekend, I noticed a large uptick in new players. I answered as many questions as I could in /help and was as welcoming as I could be. However, I noticed some oddities that made me think we, as a community, are failing our newest members. We're doing things that harm them and NOT doing things that would help them.

 

I noticed one person advertising in help chat, "I've gotten level 50. So now what do I need to do to equip my character and start enjoying the game?"

We've failed that person. They're level 50 and want to START enjoying the game. They've missed most of the game on their first character. If they're lucky, they'll be introduced to taskforces and the flashback system. If not, they'll discover that a lot of level 50 players do nothing but the same two trials over and over, get bored and leave the game because it seems like there's nothing to do compared to other MMOs. We can hope they make more characters to experience more of the game.

 

A significant number of players take pride in powerlevelling anyone they can. They feel they're helping others by doing so, or even giving them a gift. In games where all the content is biased towards the end of the game, that might be true. For CoH players who've experienced the game's content many times over, that might be true. For new players who haven't really had much experience with the game, powerlevelling them means we're robbing their character of the missions that are not in Ouroboros flashback system. It means we're taking away a relatively gentle learning curve and expecting them to learn their character at level 50.

 

The answer to keep this situation from happening is pretty straightforward. Don't advertise free powerlevelling. The players who WANT powerlevelling will still ask for it, and are not shy about doing so. People who want to powerlevel as a 'gift' will still have every opportunity to do so, even if they don't advertise.

 

More recently, I saw a farmer encouraging a new player to play a character 'the long way' rather than powerlevelling. They explained that they wanted the newbie to enjoy the game and to stay for the long haul, and that they felt the best way to do that was to learn the game organically. That's the best solution, in my opinion. We ALL need to communicate to new players that the game's content and major story does NOT begin at max level the way some others do.

 

What ways do you see that we fail new players and what are your suggestions for fixing those problems?

*Ahem*

After my initial bout of trolling because why not, I have I think an answer for you. 

You won’t like it, hell people who agree with you will downright HATE it. 
 

But nobody’s failed anyone. This person is playing the game the way they like. Also lmao if you think they’re going to listen to some random dude to stop offering PL’s. Lmao

Edited June 4 by Seed22

[Seed22]

6 minutes ago, Ukase said:

The truth is - "we", nor you, have failed anyone in this game. At least, not how you think. 

I'm pretty much a jerk unless I deliberately try to be polite. And I do try to be polite more often than not. On the help channel, I will see questions asked just as many of you do. And the failing I see is when someone uses their own experiences with the RNG to dictate a "best" or "Optimal" path for the one asking the question. 

I know it's just a help chat channel, and typing large walls of text is time consuming and not necessarily for anyone's best interest. But sometimes, the answers given are not the best answer. They're not even the right answer sometimes! 

And I'm guilty of this as much as anyone else. I'll see the question flow by, and I'll think I read it properly, but I answer a quick reply without scrolling up to be sure I'm answering the question properly. Most of the time, I'm in a mission, I'll see the question, and as I'm typing, I start taking damage, and I'll pay more attention to whichever is the more interesting thing. Sometimes the question, sometimes the combat. Every now and then, I have to apologize when I get it wrong, and thank Flea for being able to read and comprehend better than I do. 

As an example, let's take the good ol' shard vs. thread debate. 
One player does MSRs and Hami Raids in the hive. (shard drop rates against mitos are 1 to 13.xxx) They get plenty of shards. 
Another player finds MSRs and clearing mitos to be a snoozefest. If they do a hami at all, it's the zerg strat in the abyss. And they do speedy tinpex and itf. If they see shards, they don't even pay them any attention. They use threads, because they see those drop all the time. 
Another player uses t-merits to just unlock everything but hybrid and gets to +3 five minutes after they ding 50. They laugh at these people arguing. 

The entire channel devolves into what's "optimal" or "most efficient". They no longer care about answering any questions. They just want to be right. And they want their right way to be the right way for everyone - when it will rarely be right for everyone. 

To me, this is the biggest way where we fail our new players. Meanwhile, the new player is "what are these guys even talking about with all this alphabet soup acronyms?" 
We're so busy thinking about how right we are, we've lost sight of the player actually looking for information, not e-peen size. 
 

I agree.

 

Sometimes people forget its not about “being right” and being right in CoH can sometimes be subjective(unless you’re talking about what a power actually does). My right could be your wrong and vice versa.

 

I myself am very guilty of being deadset on my way being the best way, but as time goes on and I start to realize my way isn’t what’s meta always let alone the best, I stopped being so pushy about it.

 

Now I lead with things like, “Well I build my toons to solo +1x8. They could do up to +4 if I did XYZ but I personally don’t like that. If you want to be top tier meta talk to A and B person” instead of going on a diatribe about how it’s my way or the highway. 
 

I’m not perfect at this and slip up a good number of times but I’m getting there. Plus I’m honestly getting kinda tired of CoH a bit so thats been helping to taper me down quite a bit

[PhotriusPyrelus]

42 minutes ago, Seed22 said:

This person is playing the game the way they like.

...except he's not.  That's the OP's point.  The player in question is playing the game as he expects the game is meant to be played.  He's playing how he thinks it should be played, not how he necessarily likes to play the game.

[cranebump]

I tend to agree with the folks who advocate trad play in this specific instance, because I think a new player should really have other modes of play to compare to, with different skill sets that you can't necessarily develop simply through farming. 

 

(bolded, because I have no issues with farming, in general)

Edited June 4 by cranebump

[Trainee Frostbite]

The most important thing I've understood about gaming, and making gaming or a particular game's playing a habit, is having the controls taken out of a gamer's hands, being told they're doing it 'wrong', arbitrarily or otherwise will break their novel interest and decrease their desire to return again.

 

To be fair, sometimes a player does that to themselves, whether unaware of the limits of those controls or what they can and can't do, what's expected of them or simply the breadth of possibility they can push towards or break the boundaries of, all of which may be a part of a game's default mechanics, sandboxing or, in the case of a multiplayer game like CoH, the social environment or expectations of them and everyone else in-game, bearing the agreed rules of said environment and code of conduct.

 

This is even more important when what little someone knows of a game or its world is wholly anecdotal. I can speak for myself in that I've loved superheroes and comic books since I was barely two digits of age, but I've never by habit played a superhero game that wasn't book-and-paper tabletop, and that might've happened once or twice. I'm a writer by trade and a pre-digital animator and pencil & ink traditional artist by post-secondary training, and my creative efforts are what makes me whole, helps define how I interact with others online and gives me purpose as a person moving forth.

 

I strongly believe that getting anyone interested in anything should behoove established participants to ennoble the newly-enlisted to ask, give them the tools to learn how they want to participate within those game worlds, find the skillset(s) or creative meriting that fits them and their druthers. Focus less on on anticipating the questions a new player might want to ask by extremity of specifics, but allow new players to ask what they will- again, within reasonable and respectful bounds, and simply behaving maturely and politely as a set responsibility- and help them to find their own path.

 

Show a new player what they can do, in an environment wherein they can do their best with the creative tools they have and a foundation of humanity and trust securely wedded to their purpose and footpath, and they'll want to step into their costume, skin of steel or stone and dutiful business and want to be part of the group effort. And if they screw up, most of the time they'll not treat it as having been railroaded into a situation beyond their control, rather, to learn from it, and come back to do the deed newly-bettered in a little while, if not immediately afterwards.

Edited June 4 by Trainee Frostbite

[Ghost]

I don’t believe OP is advocating instructing a player how to play.

Nor are they saying to tell newbies “this is best”

They are simply saying that maybe we should just let them make their own informed decision - and we do that by giving them all the info they need.

 

How can players “play how they want” if they don’t even know there is more than one way to play?

[tidge]

One things I was disappointed by over a recent weekend was a single player reacting very negatively in LFG to requests by players to be sitters in AE farms. The public hostility was not really needed.

 

Personally? I don't see the fun or necessity to be a farm sitter. The game has so much content!

 

I would prefer to play with folks that have explored their powers and build choices through experience, but another player's lack of experience or bad build choices doesn't affect my fun. Every once in a while I end up on a PUG where another player has (what I perceive as) a peculiar sort of opinion about "how the game works"... it could be because they remember some old advice from Live, it could be that they only know other MMO, it could be they have lived a rather sheltered experience in CoX... I don't think *I* have failed them because their perspective is different from mine.

 

 

[Ukase]

3 minutes ago, Ghost said:

They are simply saying that maybe we should just let them make their own informed decision - and we do that by giving them all the info they need.

I completely agree with this. As I see it, we have to be able to relay accurate information, quickly and easily. The problem is - most folks, both those who ask the questions and those who answer - have little patience for going to City of Data and/or HC Wiki. It is a free game, so we have that going for us. But the lack of accurate information in game in some situations is pretty striking if you don't know where to look. (either in game with the detailed info tab, for example, or out of game with the previous mentioned sites) 

Just last week, I've read how a player was pointed out this:

 

And they confess to being quite oblivious to it until it was pointed out. Heck, I know about it and have forgotten it was there more than once and gone to City of Data to investigate. 

In one sense, the help channel is truly fantastic when you have knowledgeable folks like Flea guiding folks in the right direction, with options and caveats. Those kinds of interactions strengthen the community, I'd say. But until we can agree to disagree on some things, and recognize that my way may not be best for you, (and vice-versa) whether it's content choices, power choices, or slotting choices, or anything, it's going to be quite the challenge to not fail everyone involved. 

[ZemX]

4 minutes ago, Ghost said:

How can players “play how they want” if they don’t even know there is more than one way to play?

 

In the world we presently live in the only way NOT to know... is not to have looked.   And that tells me everything I need to know about them.  If this was a real /help request and not a troll, then this person really joined a new game, got PL'd to max level, and then just asked people in game to tell them what to do next?   

 

No.  They can move on.  It sounds like no great loss.   It's also not a huge problem.  The vast majority of people who come here try to figure out things for themselves and then ask questions when they are confused or stuck.  That is far more worth my time than someone who apparently just expected the community to wait on them hand and foot.    I don't care if someone PL's or not.   I only care if they tried first.   

 

It's like people who just drop a "Give me a build for ____" request in an AT forum.  Tells me you didn't even punch in a search first.  Or hell, just toss something together first in Mid's and ask people to look at it.  Shows you at least tried.  Doesn't even matter how badly.

[Greycat]

I'd say the only thing close to "failure" here for those new folks is the lack of anything saying "We're different from other MMOs - we start at 1, not 50." But that in itself is a long conversation. We don't really go for "gear" - yes, we have enhancements, but you don't have to fight other players for them in a need/greed roll, you don't need "the best" to be able to do anything, etc.  Nobody's running DPS meters on you. There's absolutely no reason to rush to 50.

 

The vets know this. But the vets also often know "I can't stand MM's 'til I have all their pets and I want to skip everything in between."  Or "This character has THESE powersets fit them, but I've played them already and just want to get them kitted out." Or "The content I like is in the 20s-30s, I just want to get there." And so.. PL/Farm/DFBDFBDFB 'til then - but we're doing that as a (hopefully) informed decision. Someone new isn't going to know why so many people are doing this and is going to likely assume it's like 'everywhere else' and everything before top-level is just filler.

 

You can *try* to catch them in Help or whatever if they ask, sure. I know I've seen the occasional "new player looking for PL" and told them if they want to actually experience the game, don't PL, find some mission teams instead, but that's if *they* say something and someone catches it to let them know.

[JasperStone]

We fail players by telling them things are bad.

By telling what to do and not do ... according to our persceptive.

 

Power leveling existed before AE.

• Council map with the portals. "We clear, but don't touch portals." Rinse and repeat.
• Wolves map
• etc.

"Knockback is bad. Slot your power with knockdowns."

I experienced this last night on a DiB

Tanker kept leading with Handclap and scattering the mob.

The team leader told them, "I know you are new, so slot knockdowns into your powers ASAP."

Sure.

KB is not bad. You need to know when and how to use it.

Now we have a player who perceives this aspect of powers as bad.

 

Don't play this Power set ... it sucks.

 

You NEED to start your build in MIDS.

 

Let them play and develop their own experience. 

 

 

[ZacKing]

7 hours ago, mechahamham said:

I noticed one person advertising in help chat, "I've gotten level 50. So now what do I need to do to equip my character and start enjoying the game?"

We've failed that person. They're level 50 and want to START enjoying the game. They've missed most of the game on their first character.

 

Playing devil's advocate here, but your post seems to make quite a few assumptions.  First, you're assuming this person got powerleveled to 50 and that's the sole reason why they don't enjoy the game.  How do you know they didn't play story content the "right/correct" way and got to 50 on their own and didn't enjoy "the journey"?  I know this comes as a real shock to quite a few people here, but the early game isn't enjoyable for everyone.  Some people do like to reach max level, fully kit their characters and then go back and play through the content because their character will perform better. 

 

I agree with others who have said let others play the game as they like and let them make their own decisions. 

 

Trying to impose what we individually think is the best way to enjoy the game on others does way more damage than good in my opinion.  I personally know a handful of people who have left the HC servers specifically because of that.

Edited June 4 by ZacKing

[Captain Fabulous]

[Pleonast]

We fail new players when missions and task forces don’t provide characters with enough resources to fill all their enhancement slots. There’s not enough for even dual-origin enhancements. That basic gameplay loop is broken. You have to play the market or be funded by another character, which is fine for many of us, but a pain point for players new to this game. 
 

There's any number of solutions, which would be another topic, but until a player can level a character to 50 and keep all their slots filled with dual- to single-origin enhancements, the difficulty curve is broken. 

[MoonSheep]

2 hours ago, Ghost said:

I don’t believe OP is advocating instructing a player how to play.

Nor are they saying to tell newbies “this is best”

They are simply saying that maybe we should just let them make their own informed decision - and we do that by giving them all the info they need.

 

How can players “play how they want” if they don’t even know there is more than one way to play?

 

excuse me, this kind of rational, level headed response has no place on this forum

 

now, here’s a 500 word essay about the etymology of the word “play” and why it’s origins in 1687 mean i strongly disagree with your demands to force me to enjoy this game in a certain way

[High_Beam]

The Malibu just rolls on by the farm without slowing down, me shaking my head.

[Seed22]

3 hours ago, PhotriusPyrelus said:

except he's not. 

 

 

Look I get it, they may be playing the way they think is optimal, but to them playing optimally or rushing to 50 as crazy as it may sound COULD be how they want to play it. We’ll never be sure until they themselves come in here and say, “Hey guys, I actually feel like I wanted to level normally but felt pressured to get to 50 quickly”. 

I’m not even advocating for new players to be farmed first. I think they should play normally for the first time and experience the game as it’ll be all new to them. But I also don’t like assuming what’s fun or enjoyable to a player. 
 

Some people may like the trad leveling experience, others will look at it like I do; a mediocre slog on its’ BEST day. 
 

I would hate for the player in question to feel pressured to PL as thats only imo something vets do when they can’t be assed to waste their valuable time repeating the pain of leveling(personal bias here)

 

Edited June 4 by Seed22