Focused Feedback: The Labyrinth of Fog

[Mr. Apocalypse]

well as a solo player exclusively, this is just more content that is unplayable for me.  My bots/dark/soul MM with all T4 incarnates all the accolades is instantly one-shotted by any group I approach.  I tried every colored portal and same results for every enemy group. Just not fun! while I expected difficulty, I expected to have a chance to at least get in some good shots, but this is plain ridiculous.

[Ukase]

2 hours ago, lemming said:

One things to note is the Minotaur has different weapons.

 

One time I was doing OK surviving, and another time he smacked me so hard I wound up on a Hami raid on a different server.

This is also my experience. The first night I was on test, probably the 2nd night after the post hit the forums telling us about the beta patch, I had 10 level shifts. He did hit me - no idea with what, but it was only for -600. And he missed a fair bit - now, I was using one of the draught insps. and I had used barrier, so there's that. And I didn't stick around too long after. 

Another time he one-shotted me, at least, it seemed like it. 

So...when is the beefy powerset coming out? 

[Bionic_Flea]

1 hour ago, Ukase said:

So...when is the beefy powerset coming out? 

[golstat2003]

I will say again that any mention of soloing needs to be removed from the patch notes. This is a raid zone. We don't expect players to be able to solo the RWZ mothership raid or the Hamidon in the Hive. You can explore certainly, but only if you have the right build and stealth. But being solo means the Minotaur comes right to you. And can one or two-shot you right off the bat.

 

That's not a solo experience.

[lemming]

I'll have to walk back my thoughts on stealth.

 

Stalkers (150'), no problem except with Drones & Eyeballs.

Dark's Cloak of Darkness with a celeritystealth  at 65.5'?   There's some mobs that will see you.   Vanguard,  Resistance have members.  I'll have to screw around more to see who does.

 

Tried Stealth plus Celerity Stealth for 85'.   Resistance doesn't see thru that, but who in Sky Raiders has extra perception?

[Mr. Apocalypse]

2 hours ago, golstat2003 said:

I will say again that any mention of soloing needs to be removed from the patch notes. This is a raid zone. We don't expect players to be able to solo the RWZ mothership raid or the Hamidon in the Hive. You can explore certainly, but only if you have the right build and stealth. But being solo means the Minotaur comes right to you. And can one or two-shot you right off the bat.

 

That's not a solo experience.

This!

 

my only reasoning  for even thinking it was possible to enter solo, is this line  from the patch notes:

 

 -"It is intended this zone be tackled with a Team or League, but can be braved by determined solo players!" 

 

I was determined, but my determination meant absolutely nothing to the OP mechanics involved.

Edited July 12 by Mr. Apocalypse

[Maelwys]

7 hours ago, Mr. Apocalypse said:

well as a solo player exclusively, this is just more content that is unplayable for me.  My bots/dark/soul MM with all T4 incarnates all the accolades is instantly one-shotted by any group I approach.  I tried every colored portal and same results for every enemy group. Just not fun! while I expected difficulty, I expected to have a chance to at least get in some good shots, but this is plain ridiculous.

 

Foes of +4 and higher have, sadly, always been unpractical for MMs to fight.

 

Unfortunately because the T1 and T2 pets are lower level than their owner they get disproportionately hampered by the Purple Patch.

 

That disadvantage gets offset in incarnate content by automatically level shifting the pets up to become the same level as the Mastermind. But (despite the Minotaur having Incarnate tier buffs) the Labyrinth is not incarnate content. By Default the only level shift you'll have in there is the one that applies in all content (from a T3+ Alpha slot)... and getting more requires completing the various zone objectives. But as far as I'm aware your henchmen are always going to remain lower level than you within this zone.

 

It's apparently on the Dev's radar to eliminate the pet level differences across ALL content, but we've not heard any updates on that aspiration recently (rebalancing is hard) so I'm not holding my breath for a magical fix any time soon.

 

To make matters worse, a powerset that relies on debuffs (like Dark) is hampered much more than one that relies on Buffs due to the same reason - Purple Patch means you'll be dealing a fraction of your regular -ToHit to these mobs and they'll be getting additional ToHit buffs vs anything lower than -5 to them. Check what their final chance to hit you and your pets was in the combat log, if it's much higher than 5-10% then you're going to need additional help/buffs.

 

Edited July 12 by Maelwys

[Mr. Apocalypse]

1 hour ago, Maelwys said:

 

Foes of +4 and higher have, sadly, always been unpractical for MMs to fight.

 

Unfortunately because the T1 and T2 pets are lower level than their owner they get disproportionately hampered by the Purple Patch.

 

That disadvantage gets offset in incarnate content by automatically level shifting the pets up to become the same level as the Mastermind. But (despite the Minotaur having Incarnate tier buffs) the Labyrinth is not incarnate content. By Default the only level shift you'll have in there is the one that applies in all content (from a T3+ Alpha slot)... and getting more requires completing the various zone objectives. But as far as I'm aware your henchmen are always going to remain lower level than you within this zone.

 

It's apparently on the Dev's radar to eliminate the pet level differences across ALL content, but we've not heard any updates on that aspiration recently (rebalancing is hard) so I'm not holding my breath for a magical fix any time soon.

 

To make matters worse, a powerset that relies on debuffs (like Dark) is hampered much more than one that relies on Buffs due to the same reason - Purple Patch means you'll be dealing a fraction of your regular -ToHit to these mobs and they'll be getting additional ToHit buffs vs anything lower than -5 to them. Check what their final chance to hit you and your pets was in the combat log, if it's much higher than 5-10% then you're going to need additional help/buffs.

 

I only play +4/8 and solo GM's frequently. In this case, I never even got a single shot, debuff or anything in. I understand the Limitations of a MM, But  this  might as well been a swarm of GMs against a lvl 1

Edited July 12 by Mr. Apocalypse

[tricon]

Just a quick run with a cloaking device (200ft stealth radius). Nothing in the red zone could see through it. unitl I run into a Watcher

 

The Minotaur 54 (+5) needed 5m 10s to catch me the first time. From the the dmg part. He should have one shot me, but it somehow. The preventive medicine absorb kicked in and somehow saved me. Usually I should be dead, my controller has only 1255.2 hp with 8% toxic resist.

 

First sreenshot survived, run away

 

3th encounter after 9min, was close to kill a Malevolent Fog before he found me. The first hit don't kill you, your dmg goes away but your are still in the fight before he hits your again, second sreenshot

 

 

 

 

 

 

One fun thing, was open a office door and then I felt through the darkness into a water basin and was underwater. I did not know the samller one are that deep ....

 

 

The invulnerable brief phase from renewal of light tempory power self rez, was enough to rez and escape from him, he was not moving from my body, so I tried to get away another time.

 

 

Edited July 12 by tricon

[Cobalt Arachne]

6 hours ago, Mr. Apocalypse said:

-"It is intended this zone be tackled with a Team or League, but can be braved by determined solo players!" 

This has been dropped from the patch note description since Build 2.

 

5 hours ago, Maelwys said:

It's apparently on the Dev's radar to eliminate the pet level differences across ALL content, but we've not heard any updates on that aspiration recently (rebalancing is hard) so I'm not holding my breath for a magical fix any time soon.

That'd be the responsibility of the power team's devs; I'm not involved with that part of the game, I have no authority or ability to make any changes to any player powers.

[Maelwys]

3 minutes ago, Cobalt Arachne said:

Quote

-"It is intended this zone be tackled with a Team or League, but can be braved by determined solo players!" 

This has been dropped from the patch note description since Build 2.

Honestly? that's a real shame IMO.
 

The Labyrinth genuinely looks like a very fun addition to the game and a viable alternative to AE mission spam - and I really would prefer if the majority of the CoH playerbase did not end up avoiding it like the plague just because "yeah that place is effectively an instant death zone unless you can get >X people together".

(Again, basing this on experiences on a Server with a lower active playerbase than usual at odd hours of the day. Perhaps on the higher population servers at primetime it'll be viable as-is; but even on live it was unusual for our Coalition on the EU servers to get a dedicated team of more than 8 people together at a time...)

[Cobalt Arachne]

6 minutes ago, Maelwys said:

Honestly? that's a real shame IMO.

The only change there is a patch note change, since so many people seemed to think that note meant the raid could be solo'd.

[Bionic_Flea]

On 7/12/2024 at 9:01 AM, Cobalt Arachne said:

The only change there is a patch note change, since so many people seemed to think that note meant the raid could be solo'd.

 

Hey @Cobalt Arachne, is it possible or desirable to have a certain color zone start at a lower level shift than the others to give soloists a little room to get the feel of the zone without being insta-killed?

 

Also: for those trying out the Fog, solo or in group, remember that HC added an empowerment station, like you have in SG bases, where you can craft some extra stealth and extra resistance to all types of damage.  It's not a lot, but it helps.

 

Oh! @Cobalt Arachne, could we also add a S.T.A.R.T. vendor (fka P2W) to Midnighter Club?  That gives both sides another vendor and can be used to purchase boosts and other temp powers to help in the Fog.

Edited July 13 by Bionic_Flea

[Ukase]

13 hours ago, lemming said:

I'll have to walk back my thoughts on stealth.

 

Stalkers (150'), no problem except with Drones & Eyeballs.

Dark's Cloak of Darkness with a celeritystealth  at 65.5'?   There's some mobs that will see you.   Vanguard,  Resistance have members.  I'll have to screw around more to see who does.

 

Tried Stealth plus Celerity Stealth for 85'.   Resistance doesn't see thru that, but who in Sky Raiders has extra perception?

I remembered the base buff station that the patch notes mentioned; finally found it in another room. The buff station stacks with celerity and super speed for 90 feet. 

Now, I can't say with certainty, but anecdotally, my perception was the more level shifts I had, the better the stealth worked. 

As ridiculous as it sounds in my head, because it's the test server, I might respec for phase shift. 

Edited July 12 by Ukase

[Glacier Peak]

Not sure if this has been brought up or not, but would it be possible to have the orange/green dialog show up under NPC dialog or Cutscene Captions instead of System(?) I believe.

 

[Glacier Peak]

Anecdotal feedback:

 

I'm excited to have raid leagues! This is going to be a fun event to lead and I'm hoping not much else changes before shipping. 85ft of Stealth seemed to get me past everything except the Minotaur. Those EBs really make the spawns harder than expected. This felt like Legends of the Hidden Temple - only there wasn't an announcer saying "maybe try the other way" whenever I got lost lol

[lemming]

1 hour ago, Glacier Peak said:

85ft of Stealth seemed to get me past everything except the Minotaur.

Sky Raiders and Clockwork will see you currently. There's some rather interesting bonuses to perceptions being found.  Next testing round I'm bringing some more variable stealths and smoke bombs.

[Glacier Peak]

I'm having issues right-clicking the Minotaur to check their info. Is anyone else having issues doing that? I can easily click 'Actions' under the target window to check info though.

[Glacier Peak]

Should ol' Minotaur be able to damage Untouchable pets? 

 

[Glacier Peak]

Can we get some added dialog to Daedalus in Cimerora that references a future desire to build a labyrinth to connect to this dialog:

 

 

 

 

Maybe something like...

 

Edited July 13 by Glacier Peak

[Glacier Peak]

On 7/8/2024 at 7:44 AM, The Curator said:

Fight For Rewards & Gain Level Shifts!

• Zonewide: Experience gained is increased by 50% Influence earned increased by 25%!

 

Don't forget to update the NPC dialog to 50% XP and 25% Inf boosted, vice the current dialog:

 

[Glacier Peak]

Column has hole at the top. Both sides of this area have the same column (opposite side of cave top).

 

Edited July 13 by Glacier Peak

[OldPenn]

Text change request for the patch notes:

 

"Special 'Malevolent Fog' pinata enemies (no attacks, no regeneration) can be found in the labyrinth that, when defeated, increases the zone's Level Shift navigation bar meter by 50% and grants 3 Reward Merits to any who participated in downing the critter. "

 

This sentence still has 3 Reward Merits listed, but above in the blue text it states that Malevolent Fog now only drops 2 Reward Merits each.

[Cobalt Arachne]

19 hours ago, Glacier Peak said:

Should ol' Minotaur be able to damage Untouchable pets? 

 

Yes or Phantom Army becomes the defacto best tank choice over actual tank players.

 

Only his breath attack hits through untouchable, but it makes sure Phantom Army is kept in check.

[Cobalt Arachne]

22 hours ago, Glacier Peak said:

Can we get some added dialog to Daedalus in Cimerora that references a future desire to build a labyrinth

Daedalus constructs the Labyrinth in response to a calamity that befell the southern islands of Greece, I believe that's specified directly in the history plaques.

 

That happens later on in his life, long after the events happen in Cimerora during the timeline players experience.

 

I could maybe reference it in his description as something like "In your modern age, many myths surround the creations of Deadalus. From automatons to labyrinths, it was as if there was nothing he could not create."