Battle Axe 1.1 (numbers)

[jack_nomind]

I think Battle Axe is one of the most lackluster melee sets in the game right now.  So in the hopes it was just some numerical errors, I looked at at Battle Axe powers in light of Leandro's post on damage design formulas and, well...

 

(Damage numbers are at Melee Scale 1.00.  The Expected Damage Factor includes the AF calculation.)

 

Current Battle Axe
				Expect.
Power		Range	CD	Cast	Damage 	Expect.	Actual	Expect.	Actual	Notes
			Time	Factor	Damage	Damage	DPA	DPA

Beheader	7	4	1.584	1	55.6	55.6	35.1	35.1	40% KD Proc
Chop		7	8	1.584	1.64	91.2	91.2	57.6	57.6	50% KD Proc
Gash		7	10	1.716	1.96	109	109	63.5	63.5	50% KD Proc
Swoop		7	12	1.98	2.28	126.8	126.8	64	64	70% KU Proc
Whirling Axe	8	14	2.904	1.18	65.6	55.6	22.6	19.1	50% KD Proc
Cleave		10	15	2.508	2.3	127.9	153.5	51	61.2	80% KD Proc
Pendulum	7	15	2.244	1.73	96.2	105.7	42.9	47.1	50% KD Proc

 

 

...To be honest, they mostly fit.  That's depressing.  The powersets of course aren't balanced around DPA, but around recharge time -- so the slow animations of Battle Axe make it a grindingly bad set for straight damage, and its secondary effect of "sometimes knockdown" isn't enough to redeem it.  The "simplest" fix for BA is... just to increase all its recharge times.  But adding one or two seconds to the attacks still doesn't quite cut it unless their animations also get nicked down; anything more than a second or two puts the set into 'nearly unplayable' territory, delivering a heavy alpha strike but having the same miserably poor dps overall.

 

And what was particularly interesting to me anyway were the three powers that don't fit the expected values.  Whirling Axe is just... miserable, a lower-than-predicted actual damage on top of a longer-than-usual cast time... but Pendulum and Cleave both do better-than-expected damage.  Cleave was particularly interesting to me because I happened to compare its actual damage to its formulated damage factor as a single-target attack: it's an exact match.  Cleave, as far as power balancing is concerned, is a ST attack.

 

Looking at other "narrow cone" powers like Shadow Maul or Head Splitter, I realized that this is true generally; slow-animating narrow cones are calculated as though they were single-target attacks.  They end up with low-ish DPA anyway because of the long casts, but have at least a chance to line up multiple hits.  Of course... *all* of BA's powers are slow animating...

 

As the gears turned I realized also that *modern* slow-animating sets like Staff and Titan Weapons also get better reach (melee range).  This combines well with narrow cones, since they ordinarily have a very very hard time hitting multiple targets.

 

From all this, I ended up with the following proposal.  Here are the numbers, using the traditional area factors to contrast "expected damage" even for the narrow cones (which are as mentioned above, traditionally exempt anyway):

 

Proposed Revision

Power		Range	CD	Cast	Damage 	Expect.	Actual	Expect.	Actual	Notes
			Time	Factor	Damage	Damage	DPA	DPA

Beheader	9	5	1.188	1.16	64.5	64.5	45.4	54.3	Narrow cone; 50% KD proc
Chop		10	9	1.584	1.5	83.4	91.2	52.7	57.6	Narrow cone
Gash		10	11	1.716	1.87	98.4	104.6	57.3	61	Narrow cone; 75% KD proc
Swoop		9	13	1.98	2.28	126.8	126.8	64	64	100% Mag 6.23 KU 
Whirling Axe	12	15	2.64	1.44	51.7	80.1	19.6	30.3	100% KD; PBAoE
Cleave		12	16	2.508	2.57	131.8	155.7	52.6	62.1	80% KD proc; cone = 30°
Pendulum	10	18	2.244	2.31	100.1	128.4	44.6	57.2	100% KD; cone = 180° 

 

tl;dm: Most of the power animations stay the same, except Beheader and Whirling Axe, which each lose two arcanaticks (edit: three on Beheader) because they were miserable at their old cast times.  All of the ranges go up.  Nearly all of the power recharge times increase; in general, the new damage factors represent the increased recharge time, but they deliberately reflect lower radii than the new ranges would suggest.  Chop loses its old KD proc since it's the better of the two starter powers, but the remaining KD effects are improved.  Gash actually loses a little DPA but remains a high-damage, high utility attack.

 

The net result is that this set ends up with a high DPA average on its attacks, but needs more of them to make an attack chain than other sets.  For comparison, Katana has a >60 base DPA attack chain at around 300% recharge with Soaring Dragon -> Gambler's Cut -> Golden Dragonfly -> Gambler's Cut -> Repeat.  But for this version of BA, Cleave (analogous to Soaring Dragon) won't recharge quickly enough for that tight of an attack chain, necessitating at least one additional power and potentially diluting the overall DPA.  At merely SO levels of recharge, the entire set less Whirling Axe and Pendulum is needed to construct a single-target attack chain.  The desired feel is a "poor-man's Titan Weapons," with a subjectively slow feel despite steady, good DPS.

 

I'm not very good at wrapping up a proposal so uh

 

Edit: Dropped Beheader's proposed cast time from 1.32 to 1.188 and gave it a narrow cone.  Gash is still better DPA but Beheader being a cone with KD makes this a more compelling Tanker set.

[Kaika]

/Signed

 

Axe really needs something, it suffers from, "Early weapon set syndrome" where it was basically just a reskin of all the other early melee weapon sets with some minor differences in secondary effect. This was so so players could use a different weapon before you could change the look of your weapon. These days it's generic and honestly just bad, easily one of the worst melee sets in the game, I don't even thing I've seen a player running it since I've came to homecoming. Making it into a sort of "Titan weapons light" would both fit the ascetics and make it a much more unique set.

 

[Galaxy Brain]

+1

 

Not sure if I read correctly, or if I just never ever played axe before, but are all the 10ft powers AoEs?

[Trickshooter]

I could get behind buffs to Battle Axe because it's the most vanilla melee set.

 

I agree that Gash could become a cone, but I would say a standard range, 45° cone, rather than an extended range narrow cone. I'd also say increase all the attacks range as a bonus, but I wouldn't go beyond 8 ft except for Cleave which can stay 10 ft, and maybe Pendulum at 9 ft. And I also feel the KD chances are low and would agree with raising them.

 

I would also swap the MaxTargets of Cleave and Pendulum, like they did for the War Mace versions. Pendulum having a limit of 5, but Cleave can hit 10 is crazy.

 

I feel like your suggestions for Whirling Axe, Cleave and Pendulum are just too good. Running these new numbers, you'd actually expect their damage to go down, rather than up. I realize you're probably doing this as a bonus to improve the set overall, but it feels too generous. If you're set on these numbers, I would say either they need an increase to their endurance costs to make up for it, or reduce their KD chance and add the damage as bonus Lethal DoT.

 

Edit: Also, if animations can be shortened, please share them with Broadsword and Mace!

[jack_nomind]

Not sure if I read correctly, or if I just never ever played axe before, but are all the 10ft powers AoEs?

 

My proposed ones are, yes.  Narrow cones in melee are typically 19° cones with a low target cap (3 or so).  They get evaluated as single-target powers because it's very difficult to hit more than one target unless you're in a packed melee or take extra time lining up shots.

 

I'd also say increase all the attacks range as a bonus, but I wouldn't go beyond 8 ft

 

Out of curiosity, why not?  I'm making this set deliberately comparable to TW, which does more damage but has the same ranges.  Staff also has 9ft+ ranges and does a little less damage, but has an auto-Build Up and damage procs.  My proposal for Axe is in some ways secretly all about the range increase (see below).

 

I would also swap the MaxTargets of Cleave and Pendulum, like they did for the War Mace versions. Pendulum having a limit of 5, but Cleave can hit 10 is crazy.

 

That... is probably a good idea, although boosting Cleave's range and arc this way was intended to help it capitalize on the target cap.

 

I feel like your suggestions for Whirling Axe, Cleave and Pendulum are just too good. Running these new numbers, you'd actually expect their damage to go down, rather than up. I realize you're probably doing this as a bonus to improve the set overall, but it feels too generous.

 

One of the things I noticed while working on this is that basically every melee cone and AoE in the game ignores or heavily "massages" the damage scaling.  Here are some comparisons:

 

Name			Radius	Expect.	Actual	DPA
			DF	DF

The Lotus Drops		8	1.18	1.54	43.2
Titan Sweep		10	1.23	1.79	37.6/83.6
Crowd Control		8	1.34	1.61	39.9

 

And I'm including the DPAs to help show why I think the "massage" is warranted in this case.  Even the few powers that do ostensibly conform to the formula, like Eye of the Storm (expected and actual base DF of 1.18) usually end up cheating in some way (damage procs).  (Also, that TW DPA isn't in error.  With Momentum up, the T3 really does do more DPA than most T9s.  Nerfing or recalibrating TW is a different topic, so pay more attention to the 'base' DPA for now but bear in mind the absurdity of what I'd have to do to actually catch up to TW in damage.)

 

To put it another way, I basically decided that "range" was going to be part of Axe's bonus under the proposal, so I did the AF calculations with about half of the actual attack ranges.  I played with this number a bit but anything less significant than that was still giving unsatisfactory DPAs.

 

If you're set on these numbers, I would say either they need an increase to their endurance costs to make up for it, or reduce their KD chance and add the damage as bonus Lethal DoT.

 

I didn't provide END costs because I intend them to follow the standard formula -- which means that increasing the powers' recharge will also increase their endurance cost.  This would be one of the most endurance-hungry sets out there at high recharge, although the longer cast times helps put an upper limit on it.

 

Edit: Also, if animations can be shortened, please share them with Broadsword and Mace!

 

They possibly can't.  I'm hoping that one tick can just be eliminated from the end of the cast time without affecting the animation, and that we can eliminate another tick just by compressing the animation slightly.  If that's not the case then the set will just look kind of weird until we can find someone who can donate better ones.

 

BS might be my next project but unlike Axe it's got a couple of letigimate uses now (it's good on Stalkers and it's the only Parry kit that works with Shield).  Mace needs no DPA help.  It just needs new, custom animations and some better weapon models.

[Trickshooter]

Out of curiosity, why not?  I'm making this set deliberately comparable to TW, which does more damage but has the same ranges.  Staff also has 9ft+ ranges and does a little less damage, but has an auto-Build Up and damage procs.  My proposal for Axe is in some ways secretly all about the range increase (see below).

 

TW and Staff have extended ranges because of the size of the weapon. It's silly, but visually I don't see Axe being 2 ft longer than Mace.

 

They possibly can't.  I'm hoping that one tick can just be eliminated from the end of the cast time without affecting the animation, and that we can eliminate another tick just by compressing the animation slightly.  If that's not the case then the set will just look kind of weird until we can find someone who can donate better ones.

 

Animations don't have to be trimmed to be shortened; they can be sped up. Whether that looks good or not is a different subject. *eyes Mental Blast*

[pattycake]

I'm not exactly experienced with balancing. I feel Battleaxe deserves a buff, much on par with its cousin Warmace. Warmace has the most powerful single-target attacks along with moderate AoE damage, along with a massive stun-AoE (maxtarget=10) which people slot stun instead of damage IOs. An axe seems more like an multi-target theme, i'd like to see more cone-arcs. Battleaxe needs some love, like you mentioned..

 

The activation times are dreadfully slow, and they deal a fraction of what clobber/head-splitter deal. I don't know if this would make Battleaxe OP but I suggest 'every' battleaxe ability should have a cone-arc of a minimum of (maxtarget=2).

 

 

[jack_nomind]

Out of curiosity, why not?  I'm making this set deliberately comparable to TW, which does more damage but has the same ranges.  Staff also has 9ft+ ranges and does a little less damage, but has an auto-Build Up and damage procs.  My proposal for Axe is in some ways secretly all about the range increase (see below).

 

TW and Staff have extended ranges because of the size of the weapon. It's silly, but visually I don't see Axe being 2 ft longer than Mace.

 

They possibly can't.  I'm hoping that one tick can just be eliminated from the end of the cast time without affecting the animation, and that we can eliminate another tick just by compressing the animation slightly.  If that's not the case then the set will just look kind of weird until we can find someone who can donate better ones.

 

Animations don't have to be trimmed to be shortened; they can be sped up. Whether that looks good or not is a different subject. *eyes Mental Blast*

 

Yeah, I meant "sped up" by "compressed."  I don't even know what format the animations are in, though, so I'm a bit hesitant even for something so seemingly small.

 

Funnily enough I think both of these comments kind of go to the same point -- the power visuals are mutable and can be adjusted into the desired effect, rather than necessarily constraining the effect to specific visuals.  If we're agreeing that a better radius is worthwhile and not broken, we can increase the scale of the weapon models so they're mostly "rikti axe" sized rather than "hatchet" sized.  Or we can use the "line of force" FX that Cleave already has, or one similar to Staff or Claws (30ft cone!), to indicate the larger ranges.  Or we can just accept that a 4' tall Titan Weapon user already does a 15(!)-ft radius with Whirling Smash, Staff hits 40ft away with an 8-ft weapon that you don't throw, and we live in a world of lies and illusions.  ...I'm thinking a combination?

[Trickshooter]

Yeah, I meant "sped up" by "compressed."  I don't even know what format the animations are in, though, so I'm a bit hesitant even for something so seemingly small.

 

Funnily enough I think both of these comments kind of go to the same point -- the power visuals are mutable and can be adjusted into the desired effect, rather than necessarily constraining the effect to specific visuals.  If we're agreeing that a better radius is worthwhile and not broken, we can increase the scale of the weapon models so they're mostly "rikti axe" sized rather than "hatchet" sized.  Or we can use the "line of force" FX that Cleave already has, or one similar to Staff or Claws (30ft cone!), to indicate the larger ranges.  Or we can just accept that a 4' tall Titan Weapon user already does a 15(!)-ft radius with Whirling Smash, Staff hits 40ft away with an 8-ft weapon that you don't throw, and we live in a world of lies and illusions.  ...I'm thinking a combination?

 

I actually had it in my response, but then took it out, but I did also think Axe would look funny reaching a 10 ft range when it has such limited particle effects. If it's range was extended, I feel like it could benefit from some FX suggesting force.

[marcussmythe]

Out of curiosity, why not?  I'm making this set deliberately comparable to TW, which does more damage but has the same ranges.  Staff also has 9ft+ ranges and does a little less damage, but has an auto-Build Up and damage procs.  My proposal for Axe is in some ways secretly all about the range increase (see below).

 

While I dont disagree, I fear the process of 'make set deliberately comparable to TW' maps to 'rework every set that is not TW'.  :)

 

Since its my baby, maybe I should write up an Energy Melee proposal aimed at 'make set directly comparable to TW'.

[jack_nomind]

While I dont disagree, I fear the process of 'make set deliberately comparable to TW' maps to 'rework every set that is not TW'.  :)

 

Since its my baby, maybe I should write up an Energy Melee proposal aimed at 'make set directly comparable to TW'.

 

I think you'd have to be really cavalier with those comparisons.  In this case, I'm proposing an Axe set that is very high endurance cost, needs most of the set to function, and has good range and AoE on its attacks.  The comparison is that it's a slow 'big weapon' set that does 'big weapon'-type things.

 

If you mean that you want to borrow something else from TW for Energy Melee -- like its DPA -- that's an entirely different proposal.  I'd be interested to see it, to be sure... I might even agree with it.  But whatever you do decide to propose elsewhere, I don't think it's appropriate to judge these numbers by fear of analogy alone.

[Leogunner]

I'll +1 this suggestion.

 

 

[marcussmythe]

While I dont disagree, I fear the process of 'make set deliberately comparable to TW' maps to 'rework every set that is not TW'.  :)

 

Since its my baby, maybe I should write up an Energy Melee proposal aimed at 'make set directly comparable to TW'.

 

I think you'd have to be really cavalier with those comparisons.  In this case, I'm proposing an Axe set that is very high endurance cost, needs most of the set to function, and has good range and AoE on its attacks.  The comparison is that it's a slow 'big weapon' set that does 'big weapon'-type things.

 

If you mean that you want to borrow something else from TW for Energy Melee -- like its DPA -- that's an entirely different proposal.  I'd be interested to see it, to be sure... I might even agree with it.  But whatever you do decide to propose elsewhere, I don't think it's appropriate to judge these numbers by fear of analogy alone.

 

My intent was not cavalier, but playful, as a commentary on what a crazy outlier Titan Weapons is.  I completely agree that Battle Axe is currently rather middle of the road in an uninteresting way, and suffers badly from being an I0 set that never got any attention since release.  I also like your changes, and the idea of a ‘heavy slow hard hitting’ set with some reach, and that isnt TW.

 

Maybe I should use smileys next time.  :)

[jack_nomind]

Maybe I should use smileys next time.  :)

 

I would've said the same thing, but with smileys back.  :P

 

It's a legitimate objection and deserves a legitimate answer.

[marcussmythe]

Well, in the spirit of 'make energy melee great again', and with a nod to 'whats good for the goose is sauce for the gander', Im working on a proposal for Energy Melee that tries to close the performance gap with Titan Weapons (in narrow conditions).

 

Man, Titan Weapons doesnt make -more- sense as you dig in the numbers.  It makes less.

[jack_nomind]

The activation times are dreadfully slow, and they deal a fraction of what clobber/head-splitter deal. I don't know if this would make Battleaxe OP but I suggest 'every' battleaxe ability should have a cone-arc of a minimum of (maxtarget=2).

 

In this proposal, 4/7 attacks are cones (two very narrow, one narrow, one very wide); 1/7 is a PBAoE; and 2/7 are single target.  Swoop is single target because it's amazing (you don't need to make it a cone to sell it) and Beheader's single target because... hmm.  Actually I'm not sure why I left that one single-target.  I was originally envisioning cutting its cast time down even further, but in its current state it's kind of just a random albatross on Tankers.

 

I think I'm going to update the proposal, thanks!

[pattycake]

no, no, thank you. You are doing great work man. Solid work. If its not to much to ask, just disregard what I am about to suggest  ;) I wont take it personally.

 

If I were to post a chart of activation rates / recharge rates | Along with DPS and the number of targets hit; and compare. Would you help guide me in the right direction in doing so?

 

The powers I am thinking of comparing are. BS / WM / BA

 

BS being the superior AoE (in my opinion)

WM being the second best

BA only being worse due to how long the activation speeds are.

 

If I could make this chart, we could possibly find and dissect the strengths of each PS.

 

Would you care to suggest adding more sets to compare? or replacing WM/BS in place?

 

 

I will post the chart on the discussion board, late next week

[jack_nomind]

no, no, thank you. You are doing great work man. Solid work. If its not to much to ask, just disregard what I am about to suggest  ;) I wont take it personally.

 

If I were to post a chart of activation rates / recharge rates | Along with DPS and the number of targets hit; and compare. Would you help guide me in the right direction in doing so?

 

The powers I am thinking of comparing are. BS / WM / BA

 

Of course, but why those three?  BS (non-Stalker) and BA are usually considered the worst melee power sets.  (And what would be helpful to you for this?)

[golstat2003]

+1 for this and general make Melee focus great again.  :)

[Clam Leader]

The set needs some desperate attention, this suggestion makes the set unique and interesting. Something it desperately needs.

[Indystruck]

This seems like a pretty good take.

[vonBoomslang]

The buff I'd like to see to Battle Axe is inspired by it having a power named Beheader. Give the powerset an inherent Scourge effect!

[Galaxy Brain]

Gonna give this a big ol bump and say that it also needs a Shatter cone in here 😉

[FDR's Think Tank]

I am curious... Does DPA translate to Damage Per Action? If you are saying overall DPS is low, but the Damage Per Action is high, you could give the Battle Axe a benefit for dealing finishing blows. Maybe a fear proc, which would tie into the beserk nature of the combat style?

 

Every set doesn't need to be a speed farmer set. You can build in other benefits and give melee more situations they can create/handle.

Edited November 21, 2019 by FDR's Think Tank

[Galaxy Brain]

DPA = damage per activation, which is essentially action. If your attack deals 100 damage and animates in 1 second, it has 100 DPA. If you have an attack that deals 120 damage in 2 seconds, it unfortunately has 60 DPA, and so on.