Ice Defense (Tanker/Brute/Scrap) seems to suck, but people swear it's awesome. Please point the way!

[supersonick]

Title. 

I feel like i'm taking crazy pills. Everyone says ice is a great tanking set, and i want to use it on a brute. I want an interactive tanking set (not a toggle-on, forget it set, such as Invul/WP etc. i have those already). 

 

But i'm in the mid 20's and i've played countless brutes. Ice tanking seems to be the set that dies the easiest. All my other brutes can solo on 4x +0 with just single original enhancements. My ice brutes? Die on 3x +0 with team support in my group. 

 

What's up? What am i doing wrong? I'm chaining energy absorption, i'm keeping hoarfrost up and using it to heal as well to maximize survivability. I'm running all the toggles. I'm slotted. I even have a little extra defense from staff/titan weapon builds i've tried. still seems to suck. doesn't matter what villain group i fight, i just die. 

 

When i ask the /help channel people just say "energy absorption is awesome!" and "i'm so good at tanking energy damage" but that doesn't address general survivability. saying "i'm so good at tanking energy damagee" is like saying "i'm so good, 5% of the time." 

 

When i look at the defense stats on the power monitor, i see that i have the most defense to Smashing/Lethal and Fire/Cold at around 25%. So when i go shopping for Attuned IOs, i'm looking for more S/L and Fire/Cold bonuses i can stack on that, but there doesn't seem to be much i can find. 

 

Should i slot for Ranged/Melee/AoE Defense, and not the "damage type" instead? 

 

I don't expect my brute to be the tankiest tank, that's for tankers to do. But i expect to be able to tank for my groups on 6x +0 difficulty because literally every other brute i play can do that. I really want to play ice, i love the theme. 

 

Someone point me down the right path, and don't just "link a build" but just explain the basics as to what i need to be doing and what to expect. thanks heroes 

[Without_Pause]

Ice is Type based Def so trying to get Positional Def out of it isn't the best way forward. I think posting your build would help. I had to check, and my Scrapper is soloing at +1x5 and they are level 31. Claws/ice for record, and Claws offers a nice amount of mitigation via KD. I haven't done it yet, but sticking a Avalanche: +Chance for KD wouldn't be a bad thing to put in Icicles. 

[Captain Fabulous]

Hmm, not sure why you're having problems. I wouldn't say Ice is the best set but it's pretty damned good. It's definitely a bit of a late bloomer tho, as it needs a fair amount of slotting. You (mostly) get defense to smashing/lethal/eng/neg but resistance to cold/fire, so you're always going to be a bit squishy against cold attacks and a lot squishy against fire.

I wouldn't add positional defenses on top of typed defense. It just makes things messy because they don't stack, the game will look at the incoming attacks and apply whichever defense is higher, typed or positional. There are two resistance IOs that add +3% defense to all (Gladiator's Armor and Steadfast), I would definitely slot those in some place like Permafrost. If you want to go whole hog there are a number of IO sets that give typed damage defense (S/L, E/N, F/C).

You should definitely be running Chilling Embrace as that is a great incoming damage mitigator. It's also a good idea to lean heavily into recharge reduction to get Energy Absorption and Hoarfrost up as often as possible. Luck of the Gambler IOs are perfect here, as is Hasten. Also a good idea to squeeze in the Fighting pool for Tough and Weave, and maybe even Combat Jumping. Moderate slotting in Weave, CJ, and with both 3% IOs you'll get an additional ~14% defense to all. Other useful IOs include Panacea: Chance for HP/+END, Power Transfer: Chance to Heal Self, Preventative Medicine: +Absorb, Numina's Convalescence: +Regen/Recovery, Regenerative Tissue: +Regen, and Force Feedback: Chance for +Recharge.

Also try to hit as many critters as you can with Energy Absorption. With moderate slotting you can get ~5-7% defense to all out of that. I'm pretty sure it also stacks, so with enough recharge you can have double EA for a short time.

[Ukase]

I really wish I could help you. I have tried more than once to make ice armor work - meeting with failure at every turn. 

In my case, I went tank, figuring the defense soft caps might be easier to reach. The only soft cap my tank can find is the figurative night cap around Christmas time. 

Some of it is probably poor slotting on my part. But I think Without_pause makes a valid point. Using mitigation tactics - the same way Super Strength has Hand Clap, and Stone melee has Tremor and Fault, they might be something I should reconsider for my own ice tank. 

[catsi563]

I can confirm as someone whose taken 2 ice tanks Ice ice ice and ice battleaxe ice to 50+ incarnate that ice is awesome but it takes work to get to where it hits it pinnacle

 

and that pinnacle is Energy absorption and Ice block

 

Energy absorption is the big kicker because the more bad guys you drain the higher your defense spikes to the point where you can comfortably sit in the middle a +4x8 fre farm mob and giggle as the fireballs blast past you  with chilling embrace the enemy gets slowed to absurd levels and with icicles they take damge which they cant ger away from especially if you have ice slick which means theyre flopping around you like grounded fish

 

ice block is the top power in the set for a reason namely that it makes you basically invulnerable while you rest and heal inside the block of ice and come out fully healed and able to fight it also gives you a chance to let EA get off cooldown which means you come out of it surrounded by EA targets which you can zap to make yourself nearly impossible to hit

 

that is admittedly where Ice armor falls off a bit against single targets like bosses. and EBs etc  less mobs means less defense so you lose out against avs and such however youre still debuffing them with a nasty slow which means you only have to deal with the occasional hit

 

with ice armor its about those two top powers you have to put your ego aside and say yeah im nearly dead iceblock time SIESTA!! and rest till youre healed

 

monitoring your health until the right point to hit ice block is key and spamming EA as much as possible to keep your defense maxed

[Without_Pause]

I will say of the Def based armors, Ice has come across as the weakest, but I only recently gotten the T9, and I'm still learning how to slot Ice in general. I've taken EA to 50 four times across all ATs. I've done SR to 50 twice both being Scrappers. I have one level 50 Shield Scrapper, and I'm working on a couple of Shield Tankers. I had a Ice/ice Tanker back on Live, but it only got into the 30s. It used common IOs, and I exclusively grouped on it. 

[arcane]

I love my Ice tank, but I wouldn’t go around judging powersets by level 20 characters.

[GM_GooglyMoogly]

Hello @supersonick, 

 

I moved your thread to Brutes sub-forums as, even though your title says "tanker/brute/scrap" you are really looking for Brute advice.

 

With all builds, I recommend getting and slotting some of the uniques and slot them as soon as possible.  For me, Steadfast Protection and Gladiator's Armor +def both go into either Hoarfrost or Permafrost ASAP.  I also slot 4 Shield Walls and 4 Reactive Armors in Frozen and Glacial Armor, including the uniques.

 

Good luck!

[supersonick]

42 minutes ago, arcane said:

I love my Ice tank, but I wouldn’t go around judging powersets by level 20 characters.

 

i feel you, but the leveling experience is a part of my core gameplay. So if ice can't level very well, it's a junk set in my opinion. 

 

this is another common theme with this set i hear. "OMG my mega-IO'd tanker is so good!"  Yeah, but a blaster that is mega-IO'd can also tank soem content. if a set needs 500mill inf to be good, it's just not good IMO. 

 

 

[supersonick]

33 minutes ago, GM_GooglyMoogly said:

Hello @supersonick, 

 

I moved your thread to Brutes sub-forums as, even though your title says "tanker/brute/scrap" you are really looking for Brute advice.

 

With all builds, I recommend getting and slotting some of the uniques and slot them as soon as possible.  For me, Steadfast Protection and Gladiator's Armor +def both go into either Hoarfrost or Permafrost ASAP.  I also slot 4 Shield Walls and 4 Reactive Armors in Frozen and Glacial Armor, including the uniques.

 

Good luck!

 

wait, i thought a hero couldn't use more than one of the unique IOs? Like Gladiator's Armor has an IO with +3% def to all. are you saying i can slot more than one of those?! i'm confused because it literally says i can only slot one

Edited July 19 by supersonick

[FFFF]

31 minutes ago, supersonick said:

 

i feel you, but the leveling experience is a part of my core gameplay. So if ice can't level very well, it's a junk set in my opinion. 

 

this is another common theme with this set i hear. "OMG my mega-IO'd tanker is so good!"  Yeah, but a blaster that is mega-IO'd can also tank soem content. if a set needs 500mill inf to be good, it's just not good IMO. 

 

 

 

I've leveled an Axe/Ice Brute and Axe/Ice Scrapper into the upper 40s (I'm currently afflicted with altitis so it's been a while since I've gotten back to them). They both level up fine? I run at +1/2x and I didn't see much issue. Maybe because I treat them as scrappers rather than tanks? I didn't kit them with IOs until level 32 by the way. YMWV perhaps?

Edited July 19 by FFFF

[Riverdusk]

You left out stalker.  That's the one I tried (ice/ice which several in the stalker forums raved about) and I found the same for them as well.  Tried it to the mid 30's or so and pretty well IO'd up for that level.  I found ice armor definitely felt among the weakest I've tried for stalkers.  It can succeed, because as long as you don't crank the difficulty up too much, almost anything can succeed.  However, on a relative basis compared to other defensive sets, I found it lacking.  Ice patch (from ice melee and not the armor) was often more the saving grace.  

 

Specifically, Ice/Invuln, Ice/Shield, Ice/Energy, all felt so much sturdier at similar levels.

[Without_Pause]

1 hour ago, supersonick said:

 

wait, i thought a hero couldn't use more than one of the unique IOs? Like Gladiator's Armor has an IO with +3% def to all. are you saying i can slot more than one of those?! i'm confused because it literally says i can only slot one

They mean of the set. Not four of the uniques. 

[GM_GooglyMoogly]

56 minutes ago, supersonick said:

 

wait, i thought a hero couldn't use more than one of the unique IOs? Like Gladiator's Armor has an IO with +3% def to all. are you saying i can slot more than one of those?! i'm confused because it literally says i can only slot one

 

Only one unique per build.  That's what makes them unique!

 

What I was saying is that I put the +defense uniques into EITHER Permafrost OR Hoarfrost, depending on the rest of the build.  I suppose you could also put one in a power and the other in the second power as well.  I just usually keep them together.  But not both uniques in both powers.  Sorry for the confusion.

 

Same thing with the +resistance uniques - one of each per build - but I tend to put sets of Reactive Armor or Shield Wall instead of both stacked together when I am making defense based builds for the HP and resistance set bonuses.

[Captain Fabulous]

1 hour ago, supersonick said:

wait, i thought a hero couldn't use more than one of the unique IOs? Like Gladiator's Armor has an IO with +3% def to all. are you saying i can slot more than one of those?! i'm confused because it literally says i can only slot one

Depends on the IO. It will say in the description if you can slot more than one. Gladiator and Steadfast are unique, so only one of each. Others like Luck of the Gambler: +Recharge you can slot as many as you want, but you'll only get the +recharge on 5 of them. The same goes for IO set bonuses, you can slot as many as you want but only 5 of each specific bonus will apply.

I didn't mean to imply that being fully IOd was necessary to make Ice viable. It's not. I merely provided a list of options one can avail themselves of to improve this, or really any set. Most defense based sets are late bloomers for the same reason, they need the extra slots. It's not a situation unique to Ice. So yeah, you might have to go a bit easier in your 20s, but as you get into your 30s and 40s you'll find you'll be able to crank it higher than you can with some other sets.

[supersonick]

13 minutes ago, Captain Fabulous said:

Depends on the IO. It will say in the description if you can slot more than one. Gladiator and Steadfast are unique, so only one of each. Others like Luck of the Gambler: +Recharge you can slot as many as you want, but you'll only get the +recharge on 5 of them. The same goes for IO set bonuses, you can slot as many as you want but only 5 of each specific bonus will apply.

I didn't mean to imply that being fully IOd was necessary to make Ice viable. It's not. I merely provided a list of options one can avail themselves of to improve this, or really any set. Most defense based sets are late bloomers for the same reason, they need the extra slots. It's not a situation unique to Ice. So yeah, you might have to go a bit easier in your 20s, but as you get into your 30s and 40s you'll find you'll be able to crank it higher than you can with some other sets.

Luck of the Gamlber, recharge reduct: why would i only get 5 of those bonuses? I thought global recharge was capped at 80% total? (i could be mistaken af) 

 

thanks for the additional info here. maybe i just need side +DEF powers to make it work later on. I thematically love the set but just struggling to want to play it due to the insane trouble i'm currently having with it. 

[Without_Pause]

3 minutes ago, supersonick said:

Luck of the Gamlber, recharge reduct: why would i only get 5 of those bonuses? I thought global recharge was capped at 80% total? (i could be mistaken af) 

Rule of 5. You can only get 5 copies of a set bonus outside of specific cases. Global Recharge is very not capped at 80%. 5 LotR: +Recharge and Quickness from SR alone is 57.5. And in other bonuses, Hasten, and 80% is super easy to pass. 

[BZRKR]

6 minutes ago, supersonick said:

Luck of the Gamlber, recharge reduct: why would i only get 5 of those bonuses?

https://homecoming.wiki/wiki/Enhancement_Set_Bonuses#The_Law_of_Fives

 

You can only benefit from 5 copies of the same bonus. The fun part is that the Luck of the Gambler +7.5% recharge bonus is its own bonus separate from other +7.5% recharge bonuses.

8 minutes ago, supersonick said:

I thought global recharge was capped at 80% total?

Thankfully no: https://homecoming.wiki/wiki/Limits#Recharge_Rate 

 

[Bionic_Flea]

1 hour ago, supersonick said:

 

i feel you, but the leveling experience is a part of my core gameplay. So if ice can't level very well, it's a junk set in my opinion. 

 

this is another common theme with this set i hear. "OMG my mega-IO'd tanker is so good!"  Yeah, but a blaster that is mega-IO'd can also tank soem content. if a set needs 500mill inf to be good, it's just not good IMO. 

 

 

 

I tend to level up my characters mostly solo, except for an occasional TF, trial or raid and have made a few ice armor characters and haven't noticed any bigger problems than other sets.  Things always tend to get harder in the 20s as you lose your beginner's luck (https://homecoming.wiki/wiki/Attack_Mechanics#Beginner.27s_Luck) and the proc damage from the freebie prestige sets.  At the same time you start fighting critters that do more exotic damage, debuffs, and mezzes but still don't have enough slots for all your powers.

 

I agree with Googly that you should slot the uniques ASAP.  Some can be slotted as soon as level 10.  I also start slotting ATOs and attuned sets that will grow with me as I level up.  You will have less enhancement value at the lower levels vs SOs, but the set bonuses and the convenience of not have to upgrade constantly is worth it to me.

[Captain Fabulous]

37 minutes ago, supersonick said:

Luck of the Gamlber, recharge reduct: why would i only get 5 of those bonuses? I thought global recharge was capped at 80% total? (i could be mistaken af) 

 

thanks for the additional info here. maybe i just need side +DEF powers to make it work later on. I thematically love the set but just struggling to want to play it due to the insane trouble i'm currently having with it. 

That's the limit the set by the live devs for IO bonuses that aren't unique, five of any one kind of bonus.

Two other things you can do is get the +def buff from the Drowning In Blood trial (good till level 29 I think), and the defensive buff from the P2W vendor (1 hour per stack, up to 8 stacks). Might be enough till you get more slots.

[PyroNugget]

whole lot of info --but nobody is answering his question

 

answer is your not stacking DEF--set armor alone isn't going to cut it--you need BOTH +DEF uniques gladiators and steadfast,WEAVE and combat jumping.

i made a quick MIDS for a lvl 25 (used ice/ice you never posted your primary) and i'm at 40% smash/leathal and 37% eng/neg.this is WITHOUT start vendor or DFB/DIB temp buffs!

this is with SOs and 1 4 pc kinetic combat and just 3 pc orange brutes fury.

if your poor you can use KINETIC COMBAT in 2 powers instead of breaking the ATO set into 2/3 pc sets.

 

for another 3% eng/neg just find another melee AoE and slap in another 3 pc eradication.

 

Energy Absorb isn't working for you because its a trap...you can GET higher DEF only when you wade knee deep into a spawn THEN pop it--your already hamburger by then.

name of the game is 45% DEF get there as fast as you can. fire,toxic,PSI are your holes--you can't fill them,at some point(again don't know your primary)--find an AoE knock or disorient or something do slow incoming dmg.( stun grenades from your old friend START vendor work like magic)--but ANY AoE knockdown with help

 

so cost for just this at 25 is 4 pc kinetic combat,3 pc of brutes fury,1 steadfast+3 def,1 gladiators +3 def and 3 pc eradication ( the panacea and performance shifter help end recovery alot)

 

This Villain build was built using Mids Reborn 3.1.2.5
https://github.com/LoadedCamel/MidsReborn

Click this DataLink to open the build!

Level 49 Magic Brute
Primary Power Set: Ice Melee
Secondary Power Set: Ice Armor
Power Pool: Leaping
Power Pool: Fighting

Villain Profile:
Level 1: Ice Sword -- KntCmb-Acc/Dmg(A), KntCmb-Dmg/EndRdx(3), KntCmb-Dmg/Rchg(3), KntCmb-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(15), Acc(15)
Level 1: Frozen Armor -- EndRdx(A), DefBuff(5), DefBuff(5), DefBuff(7)
Level 2: Frost -- BrtFur-Acc/Dmg(A), BrtFur-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(11), BrtFur-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(11), Range(13), Dmg(13)
Level 4: Chilling Embrace -- EndRdx-I(A)
Level 6: Hoarfrost -- RechRdx(A), Heal(7)
Level 8: Ice Patch -- RechRdx-I(A)
Level 10: Wet Ice -- EndRdx-I(A)
Level 12: Combat Jumping -- LucoftheG-Def/Rchg+(A)
Level 14: Boxing -- Empty(A)
Level 16: Glacial Armor -- EndRdx(A), DefBuff(17), DefBuff(17), DefBuff(19)
Level 18: Tough -- StdPrt-ResDam/Def+(A), GldArm-3defTpProc(19)
Level 20: Energy Absorption -- DefBuff(A), RechRdx(21), EndMod(21)
Level 22: Cross Punch -- Erd-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(A), Erd-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(23), Erd-%Dam(23)
Level 24: Weave -- EndRdx(A), DefBuff(25), DefBuff(25)
Level 26: [Empty]
Level 28: [Empty]
Level 30: [Empty]
Level 32: [Empty]
Level 35: [Empty]
Level 38: [Empty]
Level 41: [Empty]
Level 44: [Empty]
Level 47: [Empty]
Level 49: [Empty]
Level 1: Brawl -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Fury
Level 1: Sprint -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Rest -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Swift -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Health -- Pnc-Heal/+End(A), Mrc-Rcvry+(9)
Level 1: Hurdle -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Stamina -- PrfShf-EndMod(A), PrfShf-End%(9)
------------

 

 

 

 

[Ukase]

3 hours ago, supersonick said:

 

wait, i thought a hero couldn't use more than one of the unique IOs? Like Gladiator's Armor has an IO with +3% def to all. are you saying i can slot more than one of those?! i'm confused because it literally says i can only slot one

You can slot one Glad Armor 3%, and one Steadfast Protection 3%. Two slots, 6%. 
What's crazy to me - is the Steadfast also gives Resistance that scales up as you level up, if it's attuned. 
The Glad Armor only gives you that 3% and some fairly useless 20% chance of teleportation protection. And the reason that's fairly useless is you won't know if you were about to be teleported. It could work great; I just have no way to know. I know it doesn't stop me from being tele-swapped in Advanced Mode Lady Gray. 

And yet, the Steadfast sells for 3-4M, and the Glad 3% sells for 7-8M. (always buy a level 10 recipe - cheaper to craft, and since the 3% is locked in no matter what level it is, it makes sense to craft the level 10, rather than a 50. The pricing should be the other way around. 

[arcane]

3 hours ago, supersonick said:

 

i feel you, but the leveling experience is a part of my core gameplay. So if ice can't level very well, it's a junk set in my opinion. 

 

this is another common theme with this set i hear. "OMG my mega-IO'd tanker is so good!"  Yeah, but a blaster that is mega-IO'd can also tank soem content. if a set needs 500mill inf to be good, it's just not good IMO. 

 

 

If you ask me, every character in the game that isn’t 50+1 with 500M-1B investment is trash and only on the team to be carried so…

[Captain Fabulous]

31 minutes ago, PyroNugget said:

whole lot of info --but nobody is answering his question

I told him nearly the exact same things you did.

[Without_Pause]

38 minutes ago, PyroNugget said:

(used ice/ice you never posted your primary)

They mentioned Staff and Titan.

Edited July 19 by Without_Pause