Failure & Consequences

[Ukase]

More than a couple of times, there have been missions where I've been tasked with rescuing someone, only to see them fall victim to the npcs. Usually not during escort missions, but where they choose to help me. 

My characters sometimes are in pursuit of xp, and sometimes in pursuit of merits. When in pursuit of XP, often the difficulty is set fairly high. 

Today, Lady Gray fell victim to an exploding warhulk. I wasn't aware she was even taking damage because there's no way to monitor her hitpoints, unless I keep her targeted - which is hard to do when trying to target npcs. 

The mission failed, (although the warhulk was the last to go, lol) and Serpent Drummer let his dissatisfaction be known. Fine. 
But the idea that he's going to proceed with the story arc as if nothing has changed doesn't sit right. 

He should just say, "You screwed up. I can't trust you, so go kick rocks". 
Or some kind of consequence. 

So, I'm not suggesting we change anything in game now, but for future content, if a situation arises where the player is supposed to rescue someone and that someone gets clobbered, there should be some sort of consequence behind it. It doesn't have to be anything special; maybe just turn us all into a dull gull (as opposed to Null the Gull). It can be silly, or it could be just shutting the arc down. 

[Greycat]

Honestly I just want an option to say "No, I've got this, don't help me, just get out of here."  I don't mind losing a mission - I just *do* mind if it's not my fault. And having to come up with strategies ("Skip this group and come back later" or "Lead to this part of the cave then run like hell so they lose you") to work around suicidal AI shouldn't be needed.

[Rudra]

1 hour ago, Ukase said:

Today, Lady Gray fell victim to an exploding warhulk. I wasn't aware she was even taking damage because there's no way to monitor her hitpoints, unless I keep her targeted - which is hard to do when trying to target npcs. 

The mission failed, (although the warhulk was the last to go, lol) and Serpent Drummer let his dissatisfaction be known. Fine. 
But the idea that he's going to proceed with the story arc as if nothing has changed doesn't sit right. 

He should just say, "You screwed up. I can't trust you, so go kick rocks". 

To be fair, in those missions like with Lady Grey and the fortune teller, the contacts provide you with a means of saving the NPC should they be defeated. In the fortune teller's case, you are provided with an emergency medical transporter, so she gets hosp'ed if defeated. In Lady Grey's case, she already has her own, so if she is defeated, it is assumed that you still finish the mission but the rogues get a PR win. The main purpose of drawing out their leadership still works, and the time it would take to find another super to take your place and deal with the rogues is time for the rogues to finish implementing their plans and go back into hiding after doing far more harm than just dropping Lady Grey.

 

I'm not arguing against your suggestion in so far as future content goes, I'm just saying that for those times currently where you can continue, the game does already provide an explanation in the mission briefings. However, most such failable missions I can think of are stand alone missions like the fortune teller, so any major consequences don't apply to any overarching arcs. And in those cases, you are still a super willing to help that contact, so until someone else comes along and proves to be more capable than you, if that contact wants to get things done, (s)he/they/it are pretty much stuck with you.

 

(Also, there will be a lot of upset players if they fail a failable mission through no fault of their own like Lady Grey being too close to a Warhulk and find themselves no longer able to do content from that contact and losing out on the story arc and its badge(s) and reward merits.)

[Uun]

The issue with several of the missions in which you rescue a NPC that becomes an ally, is that they become targetable before they are rescued. In addition to Lady Grey in Serpent Drummer's arc, the mission in which you rescue the Nemesis Defector in Dark Watcher's arc has the same problem. You need to pull the captors away from the hostage before you start fighting them, otherwise the hostage will die in the AoE.

[golstat2003]

15 hours ago, Ukase said:

More than a couple of times, there have been missions where I've been tasked with rescuing someone, only to see them fall victim to the npcs. Usually not during escort missions, but where they choose to help me. 

My characters sometimes are in pursuit of xp, and sometimes in pursuit of merits. When in pursuit of XP, often the difficulty is set fairly high. 

Today, Lady Gray fell victim to an exploding warhulk. I wasn't aware she was even taking damage because there's no way to monitor her hitpoints, unless I keep her targeted - which is hard to do when trying to target npcs. 

The mission failed, (although the warhulk was the last to go, lol) and Serpent Drummer let his dissatisfaction be known. Fine. 
But the idea that he's going to proceed with the story arc as if nothing has changed doesn't sit right. 

He should just say, "You screwed up. I can't trust you, so go kick rocks". 
Or some kind of consequence. 

So, I'm not suggesting we change anything in game now, but for future content, if a situation arises where the player is supposed to rescue someone and that someone gets clobbered, there should be some sort of consequence behind it. It doesn't have to be anything special; maybe just turn us all into a dull gull (as opposed to Null the Gull). It can be silly, or it could be just shutting the arc down. 

 

No. At least not until they fix the stupid suicidal AI that you just listed out an example of in your story.

[Ukase]

3 hours ago, Uun said:

The issue with several of the missions in which you rescue a NPC that becomes an ally, is that they become targetable before they are rescued. In addition to Lady Grey in Serpent Drummer's arc, the mission in which you rescue the Nemesis Defector in Dark Watcher's arc has the same problem. You need to pull the captors away from the hostage before you start fighting them, otherwise the hostage will die in the AoE.

Absolutely. I was just mindlessly going through the notions and felt like there should have been some punitive action for being careless. I completely get how I should have done it. And I also grasp how annoying some of us get with the actions rescued allies and hostages are capable of. 

There's the midnighter arc where some lady with a gun - Lady Jane, I think, gets a rescue. I always just zip past her, clear the path and rescue her last, because she's a bit like Fusionette and aggro happy - without the hitpoints to protect herself. 

Doc Deliah is like that, too - only slightly more sturdy. The game has a good 10-20 missions with characters like this, if not more. Usually, they just get defeated, and "medi-port" away, and nothing changes. 

I just think in a future arc - it could be kind of like a mad libs thing - where if X happens - you do missions 1,2 & 5. And if Y happens, you have to do missions 1,2, 3, 4, and 5. 
Or something like that. Just talking out loud. Certainly not a big deal. 

[Uun]

11 minutes ago, Ukase said:

I just think in a future arc - it could be kind of like a mad libs thing - where if X happens - you do missions 1,2 & 5. And if Y happens, you have to do missions 1,2, 3, 4, and 5. 
Or something like that. Just talking out loud. Certainly not a big deal. 

Interesting idea. There are 2 badges in the Dark Astoria arcs that award based on multiple rescues across several missions in different arcs (Buddy Cop and Incarnate Rival). 

[Ukase]

1 hour ago, Uun said:

(Buddy Cop and Incarnate Rival)

Yeah, that proves a little smarter than my suggestion, as it doesn't punish poor performance, it just rewards certain behaviors. 
 

[Lazarillo]

On 7/29/2024 at 6:48 AM, Uun said:

The issue with several of the missions in which you rescue a NPC that becomes an ally, is that they become targetable before they are rescued. In addition to Lady Grey in Serpent Drummer's arc, the mission in which you rescue the Nemesis Defector in Dark Watcher's arc has the same problem. You need to pull the captors away from the hostage before you start fighting them, otherwise the hostage will die in the AoE.

Or better yet, missions where one of the "guards" has an always-on damage aura that kills the NPC you're supposed to rescue.  Sometimes in missions where there's not even a failure state and you just have to reset and run to the end and hope you can do something about it.

[FupDup]

There are actually some cases where the story arc ends if you can't save the NPCs. The one I know of off hand is the Doc Buzzsaw arc, if you fail to protect all the Tank Freaks in one of the missions then she ends it right there. 

[VashNKnives]

I like the Positron treatment in the who will die steel canyon Jager mission where we save atlas. Posi just stops fighting if he takes too much damage and keeps following you around damage immune.

 

It is as if the npc is falling back and staying out of your way the rest of the mission. Would even be aligned to giving the npc a way rejoin the fight once their health recovers and a time penalty elapses.

Edited August 1 by VashNKnives

[Uun]

5 hours ago, VashNKnives said:

I like the Positron treatment in the who will die steel canyon Jager mission where we save atlas. Posi just stops fighting if he takes too much damage and keeps following you around damage immune.

 

It is as if the npc is falling back and staying out of your way the rest of the mission. Would even be aligned to giving the npc a way rejoin the fight once their health recovers and a time penalty elapses.

In Provost Marchand's arc, the New Praetorians join you as allies in several missions. Originally, if they were defeated they were gone from the mission permanently. At some point this was changed and they now take several minutes to recover and then rejoin you.

[Techwright]

On 7/29/2024 at 11:16 AM, Ukase said:

I just think in a future arc - it could be kind of like a mad libs thing - where if X happens - you do missions 1,2 & 5. And if Y happens, you have to do missions 1,2, 3, 4, and 5. 
Or something like that. Just talking out loud. Certainly not a big deal. 

 

I'd be all for that, except for the annoying NPC AI that kamikazes all the time.  Sending a player on two extra missions as punishment for that just sounds like it would sour the player when the fault was that of the AI. 

 

Now if it was equal,  say X gets you 1,2, & 4 / Y gets you 1,3, & 4 ...that would be acceptable and not feel like punishment, unless 2 or 3 were more difficult than the other, and the more difficult one was issued because the NPC died.  If completely equal, it is just different flavors.

 

Alternatively, you could reverse the negativity by having your Y scenario be a reward scenario should the NPC survive.  Missions 3 & 4 are bonus rounds.  Unnecessary to making sense of the core storyline, but rich in XP and other rewards.  If they're made to be optional as well, for those speeding through a storyline, that also makes them a positive.