The Incarnate system: trivializing Archtypes

[ed_anger]

I had stopped play before the incarnate system when live, but now adding in all of the slots at 50 I'm sure this discussion happened then as well: what was the point of this? It seems to remove any need for control whatsoever, everyone has maxed out defense, regeneration and multiple nukes, pets. In a full 50s team each group of mobs mostly melts under someone's nuke, then a couple half-dead lieutenants have to be finished off. Everyone can patch any holes they have, only damage is needed.

[Shinobu]

 

People like to play god.

 

If you check out the suggestions part of the forum, there are quite a few posts from people who still don't feel godlike enough.

 

I have a friend who last night was telling me about a server called Unity where they apparently allow you six slots for every single power and you can have multiple snipes.  So I would guess people there didn't feel godlike enough either.  ::)

 

Everyone has a different definition of fun, that's all.

 

 

[AkuTenshiiZero]

Have you tried any of the post-Incarnate content?  It is designed to be far more difficult, requiring that you have all that extra power.  It is also more mechanically complex, even at that higher level of power you can and will be flattened if you do something wrong.  Endgame in CoX isn't about mindlessly nuking, go in with that attitude and you're going to get your team wiped.

[ed_anger]

Incarnate content is harder, it doesn't change the fact that more damage is always better, and every character can now do everything. Why bring a controller when you can spawn pets and add debuffs to your attacks as DPS/tank.

[Judasace]

My contoller is awesome on the prisoner stage of the BAF. My imps eat the LTs while all the minions melt in my burn patch/freezing rain gauntlet. Then there's my contribution from my secondary to heal and debuff the AVs regen, buff everyone's speed, keep their end up.

 

She's great on Hami raid too where you have to stack holds on the Mitos in order to kill them. If no controllers showed up to a Hami raid, it would probably fail.

 

Sure, if you see "contoller" as someone who just locks down minions while others kill them, then you're going to be useless the first time you meet an EB, let alone an AV.

 

If, however, you use every tool you have, buffs and debuffs from your secondary, soft controls, damage from your pets, then you'll find yourself needed and wanted in almost every bit of content in the game.

[honoraryorange]

You're not wrong, at least not entirely. At level 50 with even just a mix of T3/T2 incarnates and a bunch of IO sets, content is completely trivialized. Even Incarnate stuff is easy if everybody is properly 'geared', the only hard part is getting some people to listen. And people don't listen because the rest of content has been trivialized. Even my Blaster can wander off in +4 Task Forces and destroy a couple groups on his own with zero fear. Whatever survives the alpha strike can't hit him.

 

It has greatly reduced the need for Controllers and Defenders. Control is almost entirely unneeded aside from especially shoe horned in things (like the above Hami example, which doesn't show Controllers have value but rather the game designers made one, single mechanic that requires them, which is a poor choice to do from a game design standpoint). And at top levels there is almost nothing you'd want a Controller/Defender for that you wouldn't do better with a Corruptor providing the buffs/debuffs while still doing great damage.

 

This isn't me hating on those Archtypes, it is just an effect of the game. Now, level 50 with basic IOs and no Incarnates, that is totally a different world and it really pays to have a balanced team. In the world of 50+Incarnates+Rare/Purple IO sets... Your best team is going to be like a Brute or two, at least one buffer/debuffer with good damage, then a spread of damage dealers.

 

To give an example: There was an interesting discussion in another thread recently about Fortitude. This used to be an amazing, awesome buff to receive. Now? it's hardly noticeable on geared out heroes.

[jack_nomind]

To be honest, I put the blame almost entirely on Destiny Slot.

 

Alpha, Judgment, and Lore are great but they're pretty contained effects.  I'll agree that a full team of Judgment nukes can trivialize some content, but in a predictable and manageable way for content development (surprise adds, pats, Freakshow, etc).  The Hybrid slots are all over the place; Hybrid Melee (either) is probably the most problematic for content gating, with Assault Radial and Support Core strong, Assault Core and Support Radial interesting, and Hybrid Control... also exists.  But even the best Hybrid is at least gappy.  Interface, similarly, is more or less in "also exists" tier -- I've got a love/hate relationship with it because I don't understand what it's doing as an Incarnate power but in some ways it's also my ideal Incarnate template.

 

Destiny, on the other hand... what the french.  And specifically Barrier, Clarion, and zomg Ageless.  Rebirth is OP too, but in an "let's tone this down a tick" way.  Ageless is literally an entire build's worth of set bonuses.

 

If somebody wants to open the floor to nerfing Destiny Slot I'm all ears because sincerely wtf.

[Machariel]

Yeah, when everyone's basically invulnerable, any ability outside of "kill dudes faster" is kind of a wash.  Still, I do still see people die in Incarnate content, so it's not quite as risk-free as people make it sound. (though, granted, the solution in those cases usually isn't "more control", since they probably died to something like Battle Maiden blue death energy).

I wouldn't say that some archetypes as a whole are obsolete, but there's a lot of power sets that fall by the wayside when everyone is defense capped with decent resists.  Empathy & Force Field are two that come to mind readily.  Traps is rough too.

 

I don't even really mind incarnate powers in regular play, with one exception - I think Judgement powers might have been a mistake.  Giving every character a crashless nuke every 60 seconds (on top of the crashless nukes that a good chunk of ATs in the game already gets) means that most fights are over super fast and then you just have bosses and up to chunk down.  So any character that's specialized in ranged AoE damage is kind of... ehh... since on an 8 person team you can throw 2 or 3 judgement powers at every spawn.  This is doubly true for characters who CAN clear mobs pretty fast, but who need a few seconds (not minutes, like setting up mine fields or whatever, but literally just a few seconds - something like a plant/storm controller) - finds almost everything dead before their powers finish casting.  Destiny powers have a huge effect, but none of their effects - however useful - make a team kill stuff faster.

 

One good use for control ATs is for helping teams fight more than one spawn at a time by basically skirting the aggro cap - the tank can group up one spawn, then you dump a ton of control on it, they lose aggro (stunned/confused/held/etc), and that frees up the tank to start pulling in the next one.  They're also very useful when the game just straight up throws more dudes at you than one person can effectively manage (consider, ambushes on the ITF).  Alternatively, if you're speed running something but your team is too fragile to just run past the spawns you don't want to fight, you can just dump an AoE control on them and by the time it wears off your team will be long gone.

 

And then, of course, there's the fact that most of the content in the game exists below level 45 anyway, and that not everyone plays with IOs, or wants to bother grinding out all the incarnate content.  It actually does take a while and for people who actually have a dozen or more active characters, that's a BIG time sink to get them all up to that level.  I totally understand the desire to play a character at their maximum level.  Heck, I do it, even with all my complaints.  Honestly, when I get to a point on teams when I feel like I'm not contributing, I just leave - either I break off and start clearing separately or I just find a new team.  Frequently, when I do this, I notice that the rest of the team starts dying more. . . so maybe control isn't as superfluous as it feels.

 

I do like that the Incarnate content has some points that are clearly designed for particular ATs to shine.  BAF is GREAT for controllers and dominators, both the prisoner escape phase (obviously) and also locking down the huge groups of dangerous bosses that spawn.

 

But... things like regular missions were put in the game long before IOs and incarnates existed, and it definitely shows.  No argument there.

[Adeon Hawkwood]

To be honest, I put the blame almost entirely on Destiny Slot.

I tend to agree. The other slots are nice but in terms of overall power Destiny is huge.

 

IMHO The Alpha Slot was the most well designed Incarnate power in that it was a noticeable power boost (even ignoring the level shift) but it wasn't insane and it also tended to be more powerful for less well slotted characters.

[Rumors]

Part of the problem with Incarnates is there isn't enough Incarnate-level content.  You have... two task forces, a number of trials, Dark Astoria, a one-off story arc, and a few repeatables in DA and... that's it I think.  If there was some way to check an "Incarnate mode" to make regular missions and taskforces "Incarnate level", it'd be different.  But that ship probably sailed when the game closed.  DA also has a problem where, if you have all three shifts, you can only do it at an effective +1 by setting it to +4, greatly diminishing potential challenge.

 

I think Judgement and Destiny are probably the big problems for trivializing normal content.  The rest are fairly tame, but the cooldowns for Judgement and Destiny are way too low.  Judgement is fun solo, but you get in a group and you'll barely need your other AoE powers due to rolling Judgements. 

 

 

I don't want to rip power away from anyone.  I think the quick and dirty "fix" would be to give the team lead the option to disable Incarnate powers in the team (should be off by default.)  Being able to do the same to set bonuses would be cool too.  It'd be cool to be able to opt into that sort of challenge without having to unslot everything and make new builds.

[Primantis]

If there was some way to check an "Incarnate mode" to make regular missions and taskforces "Incarnate level", it'd be different. 

 

 

Let us bump spawns up to x12 and apply Incarnate shifts to level 54 mobs in standard content. Could be some chaotic fun xD

 

I dunno if the game can even spawn mobs larger than x8, but I did notice the  option for x10 on my personal private server under /mmm. Granted I haven't tested it.

[Legree]

Part of the problem with Incarnates is there isn't enough Incarnate-level content.

 

I think this is the key point.  I imagine that had the game remained in continuous live development for the last seven years there would probably have been measures introduced to restrict the use of Incarnate power in non-Incarnate content, and more actual Incarnate content would have been added to give those 50+ toons something to do, but as you say that ship has sailed and what we have is an unfinished system that remains unbalanced because it never got the multiple balance passes that other content did.

 

I get that people enjoy the power boost that comes from an exemp'd down 50 being stronger than a character who actually is that level, but even so the rush to 50+ mentality that seems so prevalent now is baffling to me.  The endgame we have is likely all we'll ever have - let's not kid ourselves that HC have the resources to significantly add to it anytime soon, if ever.

[Sothoth]

You can unslot the powers and you don't have to use them.

[ed_anger]

I think this is the key point.  I imagine that had the game remained in continuous live development for the last seven years there would probably have been measures introduced to restrict the use of Incarnate power in non-Incarnate content, and more actual Incarnate content would have been added to give those 50+ toons something to do, but as you say that ship has sailed and what we have is an unfinished system that remains unbalanced because it never got the multiple balance passes that other content did.

 

Yeap, probably true.

 

You're not wrong, at least not entirely. At level 50 with even just a mix of T3/T2 incarnates and a bunch of IO sets, content is completely trivialized. Even Incarnate stuff is easy if everybody is properly 'geared', the only hard part is getting some people to listen. And people don't listen because the rest of content has been trivialized. Even my Blaster can wander off in +4 Task Forces and destroy a couple groups on his own with zero fear. Whatever survives the alpha strike can't hit him.

 

It has greatly reduced the need for Controllers and Defenders. Control is almost entirely unneeded aside from especially shoe horned in things (like the above Hami example, which doesn't show Controllers have value but rather the game designers made one, single mechanic that requires them, which is a poor choice to do from a game design standpoint). And at top levels there is almost nothing you'd want a Controller/Defender for that you wouldn't do better with a Corruptor providing the buffs/debuffs while still doing great damage.

 

This isn't me hating on those Archtypes, it is just an effect of the game. Now, level 50 with basic IOs and no Incarnates, that is totally a different world and it really pays to have a balanced team. In the world of 50+Incarnates+Rare/Purple IO sets... Your best team is going to be like a Brute or two, at least one buffer/debuffer with good damage, then a spread of damage dealers.

 

To give an example: There was an interesting discussion in another thread recently about Fortitude. This used to be an amazing, awesome buff to receive. Now? it's hardly noticeable on geared out heroes.

 

Destiny, on the other hand... what the french.  And specifically Barrier, Clarion, and zomg Ageless.  Rebirth is OP too, but in an "let's tone this down a tick" way.  Ageless is literally an entire build's worth of set bonuses.

 

If somebody wants to open the floor to nerfing Destiny Slot I'm all ears because sincerely wtf.

 

Yeah, when everyone's basically invulnerable, any ability outside of "kill dudes faster" is kind of a wash.  Still, I do still see people die in Incarnate content, so it's not quite as risk-free as people make it sound. (though, granted, the solution in those cases usually isn't "more control", since they probably died to something like Battle Maiden blue death energy).

 

I wouldn't say that some archetypes as a whole are obsolete, but there's a lot of power sets that fall by the wayside when everyone is defense capped with decent resists.  Empathy & Force Field are two that come to mind readily.  Traps is rough too.

 

I don't even really mind incarnate powers in regular play, with one exception - I think Judgement powers might have been a mistake.  Giving every character a crashless nuke every 60 seconds (on top of the crashless nukes that a good chunk of ATs in the game already gets) means that most fights are over super fast and then you just have bosses and up to chunk down.  So any character that's specialized in ranged AoE damage is kind of... ehh... since on an 8 person team you can throw 2 or 3 judgement powers at every spawn.  This is doubly true for characters who CAN clear mobs pretty fast, but who need a few seconds (not minutes, like setting up mine fields or whatever, but literally just a few seconds - something like a plant/storm controller) - finds almost everything dead before their powers finish casting.  Destiny powers have a huge effect, but none of their effects - however useful - make a team kill stuff faster.

 

Yall have stated this more articulately than I, thanks.

 

 

[_NOPE_]

Awesome! I HOPE it trivializes Archetypes! I left before Incarnate stuff, so I never got a chance to play with it. I can't wait to be able to take my namesake back to the Storm Palace and absolutely WRECK those ugly eyeballs!

[Judasace]

You can unslot the powers and you don't have to use them.

 

And then you can be even less than useless on team content, you can be an actual liability.

 

When people come in and post "Well you just don't have to use X" they seem to forget that this is a multiplayer game. If you start making up imaginary rules with no enforcement behind them, whether that's not using incarnate abilities or permadeath, then it's pointless and you might as we ll just go play a solo game.

[denarchy7]

Newsflash my friend, archetypes were trivialized when they started proliferating powersets with Issue 12.

 

Tankers / Scrappers / Brutes to the casual player are so interchangeable that now the majority of players lean toward brutes (those of us who are aware of the minutae of each archetype recognize the subtle differences in each archetype).

 

Defenders / Corrs to the casual player are essentially the same, aside from swapping primary / secondary sets.

 

Dominators are just Controller primary / Blaster secondary.

MMs are a bit more 'special' with the pets primary, but still have def/troller secondary abilities.

Sentinels are just blaster primary / melee secondary.

 

I'd much rather go back to the times where powersets were locked down to specific archetypes and you ultimately had to pick that Tanker to get Ice Melee / Ice Armor or Spines for scrappers, etc.

 

Not trying to burst bubbles but Incarnate powers have done little to trivialize archetypes compared to powerset proliferation.

[Heraclea]

The character that felt it the worst was my blaster.  When you're level 48 on the speed ITF and Judgment nukes are going off all around by the time you picked a target, you start to wonder why you came. 

[_NOPE_]

The character that felt it the worst was my blaster.  When you're level 48 on the speed ITF and Judgment nukes are going off all around by the time you picked a target, you start to wonder why you came.

That's a good question. Sounds like a team that had more people than they needed to be effective. I would have told them that, politely quit, and formed my own team.

[hastened]

You can unslot the powers and you don't have to use them.

 

And then you can be even less than useless on team content, you can be an actual liability.

 

When people come in and post "Well you just don't have to use X" they seem to forget that this is a multiplayer game. If you start making up imaginary rules with no enforcement behind them, whether that's not using incarnate abilities or permadeath, then it's pointless and you might as we ll just go play a solo game.

 

Permadeath is actually really fun though, I played Permadeath in the months leading up to shutdown with the Iron Eagles supergroup.  That at least does not change the actual gameplay too much though, other than perhaps giving additional incentives to stay with the team, avoid running off alone and such.  Doing no incarnate powers on a team with people doing all incarnate powers does not work nearly as well though, as you're purposefully choosing to contribute far less than you could be, and its going to be significantly noticeable.  In either case, you want to find like-minded players to play with who want to use the same self-imposed rules for the best experience.

 

Getting a supergroup of people who purposefully chose to not become incarnates and attempt to run all the incarnate content you're allowed to try anyway could be interesting though.  I haven't done any of the iTrials, so I don't know if they're actually locked to only incarnates or not, but they look like they could be quite challenging in an interesting way to attempt without access to incarnate abilities.  I would be fascinated to see how many of them could be completed.  It makes me wonder if anyone has ever done a Tin Mage Mark II TF without anyone with enhanced Alpha slots?

[ed_anger]

Getting a supergroup of people who purposefully chose to not become incarnates and attempt to run all the incarnate content you're allowed to try anyway could be interesting though.  I haven't done any of the iTrials, so I don't know if they're actually locked to only incarnates or not, but they look like they could be quite challenging in an interesting way to attempt without access to incarnate abilities.  I would be fascinated to see how many of them could be completed.  It makes me wonder if anyone has ever done a Tin Mage Mark II TF without anyone with enhanced Alpha slots?

 

Interesting. I think you need something in alpha, there's got to be a level 1 alpha that's less OP than everything else, everyone could slot that.

[Machariel]

The character that felt it the worst was my blaster.  When you're level 48 on the speed ITF and Judgment nukes are going off all around by the time you picked a target, you start to wonder why you came.

Playing at level 45 to 49 can be rough because you don't have your incarnate powers yet, but it's still high enough level that 50s aren't exemplared out of them, so they're fighting not one but two levels above you (because they retain the level shift) AND incarnate powers.

 

Blasters I think do quite well though in an incarnate/IO environment because they can get enough defense to Not Die by using IOs and incarnates to cover their gaps and they have more front-loaded damage than any other archetype in the game.  Judgement is good but Inferno is up 2-3x as often and about as much damage (granted a good chunk of it is over a short DoT).

 

In fact, I think my next character will be a blaster since I just realized that you can go Aim (with Gaussian's Build Up Proc) + Build Up + Snipe (with Decimation's Build Up proc, which goes off very often in snipes) + Inferno. . . which Pine's says is something like 2000 damage, and I can live with 2000 damage every 30 seconds.

[jubakumbi]

Why is the AT being less important a bad thing?

This seems like a totally personal, subjective thing to me.

 

The whole idea is to create a character, IME, not 'restrict' things because 'this AT' or 'that AT' is supposed to fit neatly in a box.

Why?

Why so people think restrictions _add_ value is just beyond me.

 

In the end we are Heros and Villains, _not_ ATs.

ATs are simply a rules construct to allow for character building in my mind.

 

Why should they be used as restrictions?

Makes no sense.

 

[jack_nomind]

Why so people think restrictions _add_ value is just beyond me.

 

Because the alternative is an undifferentiated duplication of the same two or three builds endlessly.  Here's an analogy I like to use to explain the concept ludologically.  Another analogy is "If you like sushi, and you like chocolate, and you like beer, and you like pizza, you don't get the best food by putting all those things in a blender and drinking what comes out."

[_NOPE_]

However, Fruit Salad...