Thank you, Homecoming. It was fun.

[PeregrineFalcon]

2 hours ago, RoboKnight said:

Did they say why they're implementing changes that the majority of the player base doesn't want? If it's not broken, don't fix it. We have a right to know why.

Based on the posts from the devs over the years in the open beta feedback threads I will say that I honestly believe that the devs believe that they know better than the players and because of that they are only willing to take our feedback under advisement up to a certain point. I've seen several instances where the devs had decided to make a change and they were going to make that change and nothing we had to say mattered.

[Seed22]

As someone in the closed beta, I expected this to happen with the proposed changes. They WILL be back in some form or fashion, to what degree? I cannot say.

 

But its very much a shame to see you go Ston. I expected people to start getting off the titanic, but I didn’t expect it to be you in the early wave.

 

I gave honest cohesive sound feedback in the past and with this most recent page on CB, but even as I did I started to realize just honestly how tiring CB can be. 
 

Those not in it can’t understand, but I can and do

[ScarySai]

13 hours ago, Bionic_Flea said:

 

A) They didn't implement "those" changes

B) How do you measure the majority of the player base and what they want?

C) I'm on board with the don't fix it if it ain't broken.

D) No, we don't have a right to know, while I would certainly appreciate more transparency and reasoning behind changes.

 

 

A): Wanna bet money on them not coming back for the next page?

B): You can infer quite a lot from the general attitude of things like beanbag-gate and the HC discord. Most people who care are part of those discussions.

C): Agreed.

D): Nothing obligates them to tell us anything, but their lack of transparency and explanations doesn't really have a reason to be the way that it is. I can talk to Cobalt about anything, and that's probably a big part of why his work is so good, and Powerhouse's work is so tragic. It is impossible to iterate on these things in a good way without goals, feedback and the dev in question listening, instead of vanishing mid discussion because they don't like that their idea isn't liked.

 

They are not in a position to be difficult with the playerbase, when all they do is drag down the entire HC team, who are mostly great, with their antics.

Edited August 30 by ScarySai

[Bionic_Flea]

4 hours ago, ScarySai said:

You can infer quite a lot from the general attitude of things like beanbag-gate and the HC discord. Most people who care are part of those discussions.

 

The Discord and the Forums are a few dozen people talking amongst themselves.  To the best of my knowledge and memory, you and I have never played together (except maybe for an hour or two during a testing phase) but we have had a bunch of interactions on the Forums and Discord.  I have played with hundreds of players over the years that never come to either, have no idea about any changes made or proposed, and just enjoy pressing buttons and watching the animations.  As I write this, there are about 500 players online and 35 on the forums.

 

Don't confuse these echo chambers with the majority.

[Seed22]

1 hour ago, Bionic_Flea said:

 

The Discord and the Forums are a few dozen people talking amongst themselves.  To the best of my knowledge and memory, you and I have never played together (except maybe for an hour or two during a testing phase) but we have had a bunch of interactions on the Forums and Discord.  I have played with hundreds of players over the years that never come to either, have no idea about any changes made or proposed, and just enjoy pressing buttons and watching the animations.  As I write this, there are about 500 players online and 35 on the forums.

 

Don't confuse these echo chambers with the majority.

I get what you’re saying but its a bit disingenuous. Thats always used to try and dismiss actually sound arguments and is wrong every single time, including this one.

 

If the majority aren’t participating in the discussion of the game and are okay with literally anything, then their opinion is completely irrelevant.

 

These “echo chambers”(used wrong here but I’ll play along) are the opinions that are materialized for the devs to see and are the sentiments to be considered, as much as you all would like to disagree.

 

It happens in life too, we don’t poll every single person in a country on a change, only a small group’s words and sentiments are taken into account. Sucks, but the majority never voices a coherent opinion unless its a complete revolution. And thats not happening here.

[Seed22]

7 hours ago, ScarySai said:

You can infer quite a lot from the general attitude of things like beanbag-gate and the HC discord. Most people who care are part of those discussions

A lot of people on these forums aren’t invested in these discussions let alone a part of them.
I feel the discord and forums are like the big city vs some backwater town with a crazy bumpkin for a mayor. 
Both are two separate worlds and will never fully understand the other.

Though there is at least a little more similarity in that both seemingly like CoH.*
 

 

*Even though my analogy is rough, this is NOT me trying to “pick a fight” this is me making a perceived observation. 

Edited August 30 by Seed22

[Bionic_Flea]

19 minutes ago, Seed22 said:

I get what you’re saying but its a bit disingenuous. Thats always used to try and dismiss actually sound arguments and is wrong every single time, including this one.

 

If the majority aren’t participating in the discussion of the game and are okay with literally anything, then their opinion is completely irrelevant.

 

These “echo chambers”(used wrong here but I’ll play along) are the opinions that are materialized for the devs to see and are the sentiments to be considered, as much as you all would like to disagree.

 

It happens in life too, we don’t poll every single person in a country on a change, only a small group’s words and sentiments are taken into account. Sucks, but the majority never voices a coherent opinion unless its a complete revolution. And thats not happening here.

 

Saying that "most people" or the majority want something and pointing at Discord and the forums as proof is objectively wrong.  Even if you want to call me disingenuous (ie dishonest) for saying it.  What Sai said is not an actually sound argument.  It's his opinion based on his conversations with his friends and people that agree with him.

 

Saying that the majority don't matter because they don't let their voices be heard is elitism, pure and simple.

 

People who post on the forums and Discord should certainly be listened to.  But the opinions are varied, frequently opposing, and are not and should not be the only sentiments considered.  And listened to is a far cry from adopted and obeyed.

 

This game doesn't run on polls or even elections.  This is a benevolent dictatorship.  The Devs pull the levers based on what they think is best for the game, whether you, Sai, or I like it or not. 

 

I do think that they listen to what players say and don't think they purposefully do the opposite (except for maybe Sai, he may have pissed them off enough.  *shrug*).  That's my opinion and belief.  You are free to have a different one.

[Seed22]

6 minutes ago, Bionic_Flea said:

Saying that the majority don't matter because they don't let their voices be heard is elitism, pure and simple.

Hm, so what I was getting at is this; the majority would be happy with whatever, hence a silent majority in general. 
 

It’s not that they don’t matter, it’s that the overall sentiment is content. Which is fine, but to say because we can’t poll the majority lets stall this argument is, to me, a disingenous argument. 
 

Thats at least how this came across to me. Like I said earlier the forums and discord community is like two different worlds with a 3rd being the CB group. 
 

We’ll just have to agree to disagree 

 

 

[Seed22]

But back to the main issue; it is VERY concerning that not one but TWO community figures have left back to back. Don’t get me wrong we’ve lost a handful over the years, each mostly citing HC development and people just leaving. 
 

But this is quite sudden, with more I’m sure in the pipeline in the future updates. 
 

My tinfoil hat moment incoming:

 

I think it’ll get to a point to where people with actual knowledge of CoH will be gone and it’ll just be the blind leading the blind, leading to an overall subpar CoH experience and community, leading further to more people leaving at this rate.

 

*Tinfoil hat off*

 

A shame, but hey I could be wrong. In any case it’s at least been a fun 3 years from relaunch with these last two being…terrible.
 

Edited August 30 by Seed22

[ZemX]

45 minutes ago, Seed22 said:

I feel the discord and forums are like the big city vs some backwater town with a crazy bumpkin for a mayor. 

 

Uhh... sorry.  Which one is the big city and which one is the backwater bumpkin town?  

[Seed22]

6 minutes ago, ZemX said:

 

Uhh... sorry.  Which one is the big city and which one is the backwater bumpkin town?  

Either one can be at any time really lol. Just depends on the day tbh 

[Jacke]

16 minutes ago, Bionic_Flea said:

Saying that the majority don't matter because they don't let their voices be heard is elitism, pure and simple.

 

This is a rather significant fact that @Bionic_Flea has brought up, with application well beyond Homecoming.

 

This is why to get good statistics, a random sample of the population with various constraints is needed, so it's representative.

 

Unless a major fraction of the population, no self-selected sample will be representative of the population.

 

Back in the days I started playing games, there was a wargame company, Simulations Publications Inc. (SPI) that popularized their magazine with a wargame in it.  Also included in the magazine and their games were survey cards with questions about future possible games.  SPI surveyed a lot.  But as good as they were at many other things, they didn't understand statistics.  And that the respondents to their surveys were not representative of their game purchasers.

 

It wasn't the only thing that led to the company going broke and getting bought up by TSR Inc (before they got bought by WotC), but several games were commissioned based upon strong survey returns.  And many of those games didn't sell very well, because those the survey respondents liked those games, the people who bought SPI games overall didn't.

[ScarySai]

3 hours ago, Bionic_Flea said:

 

The Discord and the Forums are a few dozen people talking amongst themselves. 

If you believe that doesn't reflect on the community as a whole, you are delusional. Hc's population isn't that big, and you'll find ingame that thoughts are often echoed from these platforms quite frequently.

 

Hell, even the RPers are starting to be concerned since Vera left.

 

There's a reason people still meme on power decisions to this day. You can pretend the silent majority is on their side if you want, but reality tells a different story.

 

The irony of someone from gst calling these forums an echo chamber, lol. Were that the case there might be less flame wars.

Edited August 30 by ScarySai

[Glacier Peak]

At least we can all agree harassing power developers when they don't do what a player says is wrong. There is no place in this community for that behavior and I'm glad those bad apples get warned, temporary bans, or booted entirely.

[Bionic_Flea]

Apparently, I am both disingenuous AND delusional.  I wonder how many other awesome adjectives I can earn today!

 

Unfortunately, Sai, you are perpetually under the the disingenuous delusion that you and the players you talk to are the possessors of "The One True Way" and that everyone else are scrubs, idiots, and otherwise members of the unwashed masses.

 

GST has changed a lot since you . . . "left"  I haven't posted there in over a month and rarely look at it anymore.  I've never been much of a Discord fan.

[ScarySai]

It's adorable how you respond when you have no ammo.  No, I've helped quite a lot of people, both casual and hardcore. You are grasping at a strawman, but you have no arms.

 

Run along, shoo.

 

11 hours ago, PeregrineFalcon said:

Based on the posts from the devs over the years in the open beta feedback threads I will say that I honestly believe that the devs believe that they know better than the players and because of that they are only willing to take our feedback under advisement up to a certain point. I've seen several instances where the devs had decided to make a change and they were going to make that change and nothing we had to say mattered.

 

Unfortunately, as has been proven time and time again, the only way to get a change reverted or at least made indirectly less ass once it hits open beta is generally mass outrage. It's stupid that it has to get that bad for them to listen, but whatever.

[Neiska]

From where I sit, not everyone’s voices and opinions are equal. Some certainly are more equal than others, both here and in the discord.

 

That said, a gentle reminder that we are all guests here playing in someone else’s sandbox. We can give input and opinions, but they have the ultimate say so on what is or is not. If they wanted to pull the plug suddenly one day, they certainly can. And they are not obliged to give us anything. And honestly, it does speak to the talent and dedication we have gotten everything that we have over the past few years, all without paying and on their own time. Homecoming is a volunteer project.

 

No, I don’t like or agree with all the changes. But that’s okay. I don’t expect to. But not all change has been good either, in my opinion. But that’s only my opinion. But some changes I disliked so much that it may make me take a break for awhile, and go play something else for a time. That’s okay to. Heck, I still have full T4 characters that I haven’t touched since a change or update, because I disliked the change “that” much.

 

Anyway, just wanted to highlight a few things. It’s okay to not like things.

 

[TurboRaptor]

hey man, thanks for all the help you dispensed with your extensive beta testing.  it really helped me figure out a lot of builds, and you even personally helped me with them too.  i'll miss seein you pop up in the discord, but all good things yadda yadda.  you know how it goes.

 

take care man, good luck in the next game you dive into!

[Bionic_Flea]

15 minutes ago, ScarySai said:

It's adorable how you respond when you have no ammo

 

Are you coming on to me?

[ScarySai]

The fact we have a moose emote and not a cricket is tragic.

 

@Glacier Peak I'll take the bait. Criticism isn't harassment, FYI. Strange thing to say in this discussion.

Edited August 30 by ScarySai

[Captain Fabulous]

OK, I'm not going to wade too much into this discussion because it's already going off the rails and probably isn't much longer for this world.

But some of y'all seem to have forgotten you're not HC developers. That they are open to listening to our opinions is a privilege, not a right, and they are under no obligation to implement any suggestions that may come from the select few in the various betas. Thinking otherwise is the height of hubris. And it was no different when the game was live.

The playerbase community as a whole certainly does have input on new sets, even if it's after the fact. Data on new sets is reviewed continually after release to ensure they're working as intended and that people are playing them, with adjustments made as necessary. You really do not speak for the entire playerbase, no matter how much you think you do. They speak for themselves just fine. Assuming the entire playerbase is stupid and just accepts anything thrown at them without question and that you somehow know better is quite the stance. The bottom line is that if people are playing new sets and continue to enjoy them then they're just fine as they are, even if all your suggestions were ignored and they're not what you think they should be.

[Glacier Peak]

32 minutes ago, ScarySai said:

The fact we have a moose emote and not a cricket is tragic.

 

@Glacier Peak I'll take the bait. Criticism isn't harassment, FYI. Strange thing to say in this discussion.

Can you agree that harassment is unacceptable and has no place in this community?

[ScarySai]

No, send me all your death threats.

[Glacier Peak]

1 minute ago, ScarySai said:

No, send me all your death threats.

Conduct Guidelines

1. Do not abuse or harass others
   1. This includes players, Homecoming staff, and players or staff from other communities

Terms of Service

 

3. RULES FOR USING CITY OF HEROES

1. Hacking / Griefing. Do not hack, harm, abuse, grief, harass, threaten or misuse the City of Heroes Services, other users or Homecoming products, games, services, community members or staff. Do not attempt to bypass the profanity filter.

 

Astonishing how you have to agree to this every time you log in to the game or participate on the forums or discord, but you're unwilling to simply affirm this fact. 

 

[ScarySai]

Or maybe I'm just answering a stupid question with the sincerity it deserves.